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Limping To Victory

23 Apr 2008 09:41 am

obamacrowd.jpg

To my my Current from yesterday arguing that conservatives shouldn't let the Democratic civil war blind them to the mountain that John McCain still has to climb, I would add that it's also worth pondering Jay Cost's thoughts on the ways in which the primary campaign has actually been "quite helpful for the Democrats," since it has "exposed weaknesses in both campaigns that might not have been identified until October," and "given both an opportunity to strengthen themselves." He writes:

Consider a few examples. We have learned that the Clinton organization was plagued by pro-Clinton myopia. Operating under the assumption that she could not lose, it failed to do everything it could to ensure victory. This included small things like mismanaging Bill, to big things like leaving caucus states unorganized. If Clinton had won Iowa and New Hampshire, knocking Obama out, it might not have discovered its myopia until it was too late. Learning in October that its basic assumptions were fundamentally flawed would have been disastrous.

The Obama campaign has learned several important lessons about "elitism." It has learned that Republicans are quite attracted to this idea. This is a good thing. Now it knows how the Republicans will come after him. Furthermore, thanks to last week's debate, it also knows it must have a better response ready for the GOP. Suppose Obama had won Texas and Ohio, knocking Hillary out. Flash forward to the fall debates, when Obama is asked about William Ayers. Not having the benefit of having been asked in April, he gives a tepid answer like the one he actually gave last week. This time, his debate opponent is not Hillary Clinton, whose spouse pardoned members of the Weather Underground, but John McCain, who was in the Hanoi Hilton when they were engaging in terrorism. Obama would have been in much more jeopardy.

Cost goes on to argue that the problem for the Dems "is not that the campaign has gone on this long. Rather, it is that there is no obvious terminal point," and thus no way to stop the race for dragging on long past the "point at which the benefits to the campaign are outweighed by the costs." I agree, but I also think it's worth pointing out that while the competition has been helpful for the Democrats, the chronology - and the narrative the chronology creates - hasn't been helpful at all. If you're going to have an evenly-matched, hard-fought primary, you want it to stay evenly-matched throughout, with the eventual winner only pulling away at the very end. Or better still, you want the eventual loser to dominate the early going, and the eventual winner to gradually claw their way back into things and then pull ahead at the end, creating a great "comeback kid" narrative to carry into the general election. What you don't want is what the Democrats have now: A dynamic in which the eventual winner - Obama, that is - pulled way ahead in the middle of the campaign, only to have the eventual loser mount a furious comeback that everyone outside her inner circle (and lots of people inside, one imagines) knows is more or less hopeless, but which has succeeded in bloodying the front-runner at precisely the moment when he could be gearing up to use his enormous financial edge to crush John McCain. Cost is right: There's a very real sense in which it's good for Obama to have some of his weaknesses exposed in the primary campaign, rather than in October. But it would have been even better for Obama, and for his party, if those weaknesses had been exposed earlier in the primaries, and if these later weeks were given over to triumph and consolidation, rather than a slow limp to the finish line.

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Comments (37)

everyone outside her inner circle (and lots of people inside, one imagines) knows is more or less hopeless

When Ross says that "everyone outside her inner circle" thinks she's going to lose, is Ross not counting the 43% of Pennsylvania voters who think Hillary will be the nominee? Or does he think those 43% of Pennsylvania voters are all inside her inner circle?

"Suppose Obama had won Texas and Ohio...."

Just for the record, Obama won texas.

What is going to happen when Obama wins NC and Indiana? That should end it right? Even if Hilery decideds to continue, it will be continuing like Ron Paul continues. At least I hope so. I can't believe the super delegates would let her drag it out to the convention if she loses those two states.

The Obama campaign has learned several important lessons about "elitism." It has learned that Republicans are quite attracted to this idea. This is a good thing. Now it knows how the Republicans will come after him.

If Obama was unaware, before this primary campaign, that the GOP plans to accuse him of elitism then he should be disqualified from the office of US President on the grounds of terminal naivete.

I agree with this post. There have been plusses and minuses. All in all, I think the minuses for the Democrats outweigh the pluses.

The whole point of Clinton's campaign in the past 2 months has been to damage Obama, because they realize that she can't win the nomination unless superdelegates opt to override the decision of the voters. As Ross points out, McCain is getting a free ride, at a time when voters could be brought around to the view that he's out of touch on the economy, foreign policy, and domestic policy.

And JB is right, there's no surprise on the "elitism" front. "He's too rich and detached" is always a key component of the strategy of the Republican nominee (who is always wealthier than his opponent). Add in fear of gayness and foreigners, and you have their whole campaign.

By the way, it's at least possible that Obama has benefited a bit from having these charges of elitism brought up now. It makes sense that you'll get better at responding to a line of attack if you face it repeatedly. But there are a couple problems with this:

1. It's not as if the GOP would have held off on accusing Obama of elitism until October. Presumably it would have been (and will be) a big theme all along. If the primaries were already over Obama would be responding to those attacks now, giving him plenty of time to develop a coherent counter-attack before the fall. And he'd be receiving those attacks from the GOP instead of from other Democrats. Which leads to...

2. It's going to damage Obama in the fall when the GOP can point to Democratic politicians (primarily Clinton but also many of her allies) accusing Obama of being an out-of-touch elitist who offers nothing but fancy rhetoric. When Clinton was attacking him for lack of experience that seemed easier to walk back; you could imagine her saying, "Well, I was wrong--after a long hard primary where I saw him under pressure and listened to his plans for America's future, I now realize that Senator Obama is supremely qualified to lead this country." It's a bit harder to imagine a credible argument from Clinton that she was wrong about Obama being an empty suit who doesn't understand the needs of ordinary Americans.

"only to have the eventual loser mount a furious comeback"

There's no denying the "furious" part but in what sense has Clinton mounted a "comeback?" The pledged delegate situation is pretty much exactly where it was before Texas and Ohio and after Obama's February win streak and meanwhile he's added dozens more superdelegates. It's only because her last name is Clinton that anybody still takes her candidacy seriously.

For Change Vote Obama!

Online Concert for Barack!

John Mellencamp Small Town
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eDkAG3R0h8

Elvis Presley - Amazing Grace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3XdXEJEI4E

Bruce Springsteen Radio Nowhere
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmLt6kcZ72Q

Supporting Barack Obama 08!

In the end McCain will have to explain why he stood around laughing and cheering while the Bushpigs anally raped this country for 8 years. I don't think he has a good answer for that. I don't think anyone could.

Movement conservatism had a complete victory and revealed itself for what it is - a movement made up of warmongering morons who couldn't manage to restrain their worst impulses. It used to be true that when liberals called conservatives "fascists" that they were guilty of hyperbole, but it no longer is. Dumbya Bush and Dickless Cheney have accomplished that much.

BARACK OBAMA HAS LOST MY VOTE BECAUSE HE IS NOT A STRONG LEADER and PERSUASIVE COMMUNICATOR (the PROOF lies in the fact BARACK OBAMA
HAS NOT DEFEATED HILARY CLINTON by now - America's #1 negative low-life slimy politician)

I have actively supported 200% SENATOR BARACK OBAMA for PRESIDENT over the last year here in San Francisco, CA - and because of the following reasons, I am switching my vote to JOHN MCCAIN:

1. Barack Obama cannot figure out how to defeat Hilary Clinton by now, America's #1 negative low-life slimy politician.

Hilary Clinton is a monster, a poor excuse as a political leader, a fake Christian, and an evil human being.

Barack Obama does not have the RIGHT STUFF to be America's president and defeat Hilary Clinton by now like Ronald Reagan did to defeat Jimmy Carter in the 1980 election year - and JFK did to defeat Richard Nixon in the 1960 election year

2. Barack Obama conducted a weak negative campaign in the Pennsylvania primary which is totally unacceptable - Barack Obama has lowered himself to Hilary Clinton's evil low-life slimy politician level.

3. Barack Obama does not know how to focus on and solely discuss the most important issues of this 2008 election year that major concerns educated Americans - ending the US war in Iraq and the fixing US economy to be fiscally healthy again!

~DR. EDWARD PATRICK HILL, Author, Environmentalist, Decorated Vietnam Veteran~
*VISUALIZE WORLD PEACE & END ALL EVIL WARS=
*SAVE the EARTH’S ENVIRONMENT and PROTECT the ANIMAL KINGDOM
258 21st Avenue #2
San Francisco, CA 94121
Email - worldpeaceispossible@comcast.net

BARACK OBAMA HAS LOST MY VOTE BECAUSE HE IS NOT A STRONG LEADER and PERSUASIVE COMMUNICATOR (the PROOF lies in the fact BARACK OBAMA
HAS NOT DEFEATED HILARY CLINTON by now - America's #1 negative low-life slimy politician)

I have actively supported 200% SENATOR BARACK OBAMA for PRESIDENT over the last year here in San Francisco, CA - and because of the following reasons, I am switching my vote to JOHN MCCAIN:

1. Barack Obama cannot figure out how to defeat Hilary Clinton by now, America's #1 negative low-life slimy politician.

Hilary Clinton is a monster, a poor excuse as a political leader, a fake Christian, and an evil human being.

Barack Obama does not have the RIGHT STUFF to be America's president and defeat Hilary Clinton by now like Ronald Reagan did to defeat Jimmy Carter in the 1980 election year - and JFK did to defeat Richard Nixon in the 1960 election year

2. Barack Obama conducted a weak negative campaign in the Pennsylvania primary which is totally unacceptable - Barack Obama has lowered himself to Hilary Clinton's evil low-life slimy politician level.

3. Barack Obama does not know how to focus on and solely discuss the most important issues of this 2008 election year that major concerns educated Americans - ending the US war in Iraq and the fixing US economy to be fiscally healthy again!

~DR. EDWARD PATRICK HILL, Author, Environmentalist, Decorated Vietnam Veteran~
*VISUALIZE WORLD PEACE & END ALL EVIL WARS=
*SAVE the EARTH’S ENVIRONMENT and PROTECT the ANIMAL KINGDOM
258 21st Avenue #2
San Francisco, CA 94121
Email - worldpeaceispossible@comcast.net

BARACK OBAMA HAS LOST MY VOTE BECAUSE HE IS NOT A STRONG LEADER and PERSUASIVE COMMUNICATOR (the PROOF lies in the fact BARACK OBAMA
HAS NOT DEFEATED HILARY CLINTON by now - America's #1 negative low-life slimy politician)

I have actively supported 200% SENATOR BARACK OBAMA for PRESIDENT over the last year here in San Francisco, CA - and because of the following reasons, I am switching my vote to JOHN MCCAIN:

1. Barack Obama cannot figure out how to defeat Hilary Clinton by now, America's #1 negative low-life slimy politician.

Hilary Clinton is a monster, a poor excuse as a political leader, a fake Christian, and an evil human being.

Barack Obama does not have the RIGHT STUFF to be America's president and defeat Hilary Clinton by now like Ronald Reagan did to defeat Jimmy Carter in the 1980 election year - and JFK did to defeat Richard Nixon in the 1960 election year

2. Barack Obama conducted a weak negative campaign in the Pennsylvania primary which is totally unacceptable - Barack Obama has lowered himself to Hilary Clinton's evil low-life slimy politician level.

3. Barack Obama does not know how to focus on and solely discuss the most important issues of this 2008 election year that major concerns educated Americans - ending the US war in Iraq and the fixing US economy to be fiscally healthy again!

~DR. EDWARD PATRICK HILL, Author, Environmentalist, Decorated Vietnam Veteran~
*VISUALIZE WORLD PEACE & END ALL EVIL WARS=
*SAVE the EARTH’S ENVIRONMENT and PROTECT the ANIMAL KINGDOM
258 21st Avenue #2
San Francisco, CA 94121
Email - worldpeaceispossible@comcast.net

But isn't this all extremely subjective? I mean, if the Media decides that PA is a crucial test, but the March 6th primaries are not, then this point stands. But if the Media talk up North Carolina and Indiana, then Obama can win on a high note by overcoming Clinton's (entirely fictitious and media-created) "comeback" in PA.

It is very tiring, to say the least.

Clinton won as expected but by a relatively low margin.

Helped by former president Bill Clinton, a 500.000/day campaign value and Ed Randell, also a high campaign value.
It is her 'territory' in the Pennsylvanian woods.

The Pennsylvanian cities are Obama's territory.

I would like the world to be governed by someone who understand city life.
The racial undertones ( muslim, terrorist, america hater, even the elitist in this context ) are clear and sadly appaling.


There are some folks that plainly refuse to be governed by a 'black' person.


Why, I ask them, do you so bravely worship Tger Woods, Michael Jordan etc., and wet your dreams with Tyra Banks, Hale Berry etc.
Please, it is not the 19th but the 21st century.

Get yourself a 'black' girlfriend and stop being bitter. :)

Obama and his followers scare the shit out of me. Seeing hordes of people with beatific smiles of quiet satisfaction on the one hand and then getting hysterical about change on the other hand makes me cringe. I would never vote for him if only because I refuse to be a part of this mindlessness. It could never happen here, but what I'm seeing is an incipient personality cult.

I don't need the president to tell me what I need to think or how I need to change or what conversations I need to have about what topics. I need a president who will be a good commander in chief, who will make good deals for us with other nations and who will make judicial appointments that I can agree with. That's his job. But if being in charge of the national conversation comes to supersede the president's constitutional duties in the minds of his followers, then it gets scary. On all of these criteria, Obama comes up way short, even dangerously short. So I really hope he loses.

Roque Nuevo writes "Obama and his followers scare the shit out of me. Seeing hordes of people with beatific smiles of quiet satisfaction on the one hand and then getting hysterical about change on the other hand makes me cringe. I would never vote for him if only because I refuse to be a part of this mindlessness. It could never happen here, but what I'm seeing is an incipient personality cult."

The Repiglican worship of Dumbya Bush certainly amounted to a personality cult. Nothing else explains the fact that 2/3rds of GOP voters still think the moron has been a good president.

"I need a president who will be a good commander in chief, who will make good deals for us with other nations and who will make judicial appointments that I can agree with. That's his job."

His job is making appointments YOU agree with? You seem to be a malignant narcissist. I take it you'll be voting for McCain and his 4-more-years-of-Bush agenda.

The problem for the Democrats isn't the length of the process, but the result. It's clear that despite the evenness of the race so far, they are determined to nominate the less electable of the two candidates -- the man who, in Michael Barone's words, wins blacks, academics, state capitals, and nothing else.

Take away the inane caucuses and Hillary would be leading this race. Take away the inane proportionality rules, and Hillary would be leading this race. Switch to an electoral college-style system and Hillary would have wrapped it up months ago. Switch to a GOP-style system (mostly primaries and mostly but not all winner take all), and Hillary would have locked it up weeks ago.

But Obama has gamed the system, and convinced the media that his "popular vote" margins in unrepresentative caucuses are meaningful, while Hillary's landslide victory in the Florida primary was some sort of exhibition game.

Simon says: "But Obama has gamed the system, and convinced the media that his "popular vote" margins in unrepresentative caucuses are meaningful, while Hillary's landslide victory in the Florida primary was some sort of exhibition game."

Since Obama didn't campaign in Florida, that's exactly what it was.

And Michael Barone's comment simply reveals him as a jackass.

Thanks for reading. Sorry we disagree so strongly, but that's one reason we have elections. Everyone gets to choose his or her side. It's an honor to have my character attacked by a dunce. This gives me some concrete evidence to support what I've said above. The Obama movement is anti rational. It's based on emotion and will (as the Nazis liked to call it), for example, "Yes we can!. You're a case in point.

Just for the record, you'll need some more support for your claim that approval of the Bush presidency amounts to a personality cult. It's not enough that they don't agree with you. Where are the mass rallies screaming slogans, for example? Where are the pundits interpreting Bush what Bush wants the people to do? You only see these kinds of things with Obama. It's obvious that Bush and his followers have taken their fair share of criticism, not to mention abuse, and they're not crying about it, like Obama and his followers do.

Also, my voting according to a candidate's judicial philosophy doesn't make me a malignant narcissist. My vote is mine, not yours. Right? So I want a candidate who agrees with me on the issues that are important to me. I don't want a candidate who tells me what to think and what conversations to have and why I need to change. The point of my post is that I vote according to how a candidate shapes up under the constitutional authority he would have as president, not according to vague promises to change and fix things that do not come under his constitutional authority. It's true that I'm voting for McCain. I'm not stupid. I don't want to die. Plus, the idea that McCain is a Bush third term is pure propaganda. There is nothing to back it up, least of all McCains record, unless you're only thinking of McCain's seriousness of purpose in facing radical Islam. If that's all you mean, then I say I want a hundred more years of it!

I think you should at least look up the word "narcissist" before you start hurling it about as an all-purpose term of abuse. For that purpose, there are other, far more effective, words. In general, you should try to think critically about what you say before you write it and post it. If you don't, then what happens is that you sound ignorant and childish, like you do here.

The above post is mine, addressed to the Three Stooges. Sorry for the confusion.

Some dipshit who can't even figure out how to post says: "Just for the record, you'll need some more support for your claim that approval of the Bush presidency amounts to a personality cult. It's not enough that they don't agree with you. Where are the mass rallies screaming slogans, for example?"

Did you see the 2004 Repiglican Convention? That sure fit the description. I wonder if they'll drag the worthless scumbag out at the 2008 Nuremberg Rally... I mean GOP Convention.

"Stay the course," "Mission Accomplished," "the surge is working," "they hate us for our freedoms," how many dumbass slogans do you need, chuckles?

Your problem is confusing campaign slogans with lunacy like thinking the Iraq War has been a success.

"Where are the pundits interpreting Bush what Bush wants the people to do?"

Please translate that into English and maybe I'll answer it.

"It's obvious that Bush and his followers have taken their fair share of criticism, not to mention abuse, and they're not crying about it, like Obama and his followers do."

Just yesterday Laura was bitching about "the pounding" Dumbya gets. He should be getting "pounded" in prison for the next 20 years, but that's not what she meant. She was whining about well-earned criticism of the ream-job he's given this country.

"It's true that I'm voting for McCain. I'm not stupid. I don't want to die."

You're going to die. Trust me. And you are very, very stupid. You're also a narcissist. You're just not bright enough to figure that out.

Some dipshit who doesn't know how to think calls Republicans "Repiglicans" and thinks he's a scathing wit. Well,dipshit, I know I'm going to die. I've known that for a long time. Your dipshit sarcasm is tedious and you're too stupid to see that. But I still don't want to die, dipshit, especially at the hands of Obama and his illuminati.

I guess I'm not the expert poster that you are. Give yourself another pat on the back, dipshit. That's besides the big star you deserve for your overheated forehead for diagnosing me with narcissism without ever having even met me.

While you're at it, why not learn to read? For example I never said that the Iraq was was a success. Did you get this info from the same place you got the idea that I'm a narcissist? If so, you should get your thumb out of your ass because it's not giving you good information.

Conventions are examples of the mass movement politics I'm saying is Obama's only appeal. Otherwise they're only sideshows to please the so-called delegates. Both parties indulge themselves to the hilt. So what? No one confuses these with the real politics of the presidency. No one except Obama and his dipshit followers, like you, which is why he's so scary. How does he look when he's not inspiring people into a cow-like stupidity, like you, stupid? The answer is "pretty dangerous", you idiot. You'd see that if you weren't so smart, dipshit. You're confusing tired insults like "Repiglican" "Dumbya" and "Dickless" with actually thinking about things.

You're too stupid to see that you've provided me with evidence that Obama makes stupid people like you feel superior by infusing them with the sort of insufferable self-righteousness you spew forth. That's his main appeal and his main target is the dipshits who are too lazy to think for themselves. He makes you feel that you don't even have to think for yourself when all you need is to be for change and against the evil fascists. When dipshits like you get into big groups and their eyes glaze over in rapture at the thought of themselves being on the right side of history I start to look for the exit.

The dipshit narcissist replies: "Some dipshit who doesn't know how to think calls Republicans "Repiglicans" and thinks he's a scathing wit. Well,dipshit, I know I'm going to die. I've known that for a long time. Your dipshit sarcasm is tedious and you're too stupid to see that. But I still don't want to die, dipshit, especially at the hands of Obama and his illuminati.

I guess I'm not the expert poster that you are. Give yourself another pat on the back, dipshit. That's besides the big star you deserve for your overheated forehead for diagnosing me with narcissism without ever having even met me.

While you're at it, why not learn to read? For example I never said that the Iraq was was a success. Did you get this info from the same place you got the idea that I'm a narcissist? "

You're also paranoid - this "Obama and his illuminati" nonsense proves that.

Of course you love the Iraq War, which is why you're stupid enough to be a McCain supporter. And your irrational fear that an Obama presidency will somehow get you killed is funny as hell. Are the big bad jihadists going to come and kill you in whatever shithole you call home? Aw, poor baby, you need Grandpappy McPain and his senile gibberish to make you feel "safe." It would be cute if you were 4 and actually related to the broken-down old geezer.

"He makes you feel that you don't even have to think for yourself when all you need is to be for change and against the evil fascists."

I was for change and against the evil fascists (and yes, Dumbya and Dickless are most definitely fascists) before I had ever heard of Obama. It's not a personality cult, it's just a fact - Obama's a better choice than the maggots you embrace.

By the way, Lynndie England is out of jail and available, so why don't you look her up and have a litter of Repiglets? She seems like your type.

So you were "for change and against the evil fascists" before you'd heard of Obama? My mistake. Sorry about that. You deserve to give yourself another pat on the back, if you can get your thumb out of your ass long enough to do it. Feels good in there, huh?

"You deserve to give yourself another pat on the back, if you can get your thumb out of your ass long enough to do it. Feels good in there, huh?"

More projection, chuckles? I suspect you have both fists and a baseball bat stored in yours - just a little trick your mom taught you in between visits from your "uncles." I suppose this is what led to your massive fears and your sick, sad need for a daddy figure to make you feel "safe."

Your heroes are cowards and murderers, pal. What does that make you?

"More projection"?

You really love the psychobabble, don't you? But all it means for you is, "I'm rubber, you're glue..." When you get a chance, read up on projection as well as narcissism. I knew the thumb-in-the- ass thing would hit too close to home for you. You're all alike.

What does it make me if my heroes are cowards and murderers? I don't know, really. But it must be something really, really bad. Fascist, maybe? Imperialist dog? Pig? Who cares anyway? Forget about it. Get some rest. Later you can continue feeling morally superior to people who disagree with your political ideas. It'll be OK, I promise.

Dick Cheney's tapeworm responds: "Later you can continue feeling morally superior to people who disagree with your political ideas. "

Torture as a political idea?

You fascists really do deserve your bad reputations.

"the Republican nominee (who is always wealthier than his opponent)."

Well, not always (Kerry) ...

OK. I'm a fascist because my heroes are cowards and murderers. Is that the best you can do?

But why bring up torture? Aren't we commenting about Obama, even in a tangental way? Isn't Douthat writing about Obama? Isn't this a comment thread about Douthat's pieces? I never said anything about torture. So Obama and you are against torture. Whoot!

When I mentioned political ideas I was referring to supporting Obama, or not. Obviously. Like I said, if you could quit tickling your own prostate for a while you might learn to keep your eye on the ball. Try to keep up!

My thumb-in-your-ass comment must've really gotten to you. I knew it would. It's a good image of an Obama follower, come to think of it: blissed out by self stimulation of the prostate and gushing robotically about change and transcendence. But that thumb has to come out sooner or later, dipshit.

Dickless Cheney's tapeworm again: "It's a good image of an Obama follower, come to think of it: blissed out by self stimulation of the prostate and gushing robotically about change and transcendence."

This is extremely stupid, even for a Bush-slurping moron like you. I'm not a "follower" of Obama. I'll vote for him over McCain because I'm not a malignant idiot and because I've been paying attention for the past 7 years. The Repiglican Party has a well-deserved ass-kicking coming and I hope it's as severe as any political party in this country has ever suffered.

You tapeworms had your chance and you did your worst. Time to die.

"Time to die"? Now I'm scared, dipshit.

You've been paying attention to the wrong things, dipshit. This is not about massaging your prostate and gushing about change and hating fascists. It's about being commander in chief. That's what the constitution says, anyway. Have a look someday. I'm sure it feels really good to have your thumb up your ass all the time but it's cutting into your ability to "pay attention". You haven't noticed that the country has been free of terrorist attacks since 9/11.

Don't forget to wash before you put your thumb in your mouth. Those E-coli infections can be nasty, dipshit.

The tapeworm replies: ""Time to die"? Now I'm scared, dipshit."

You shouldn't be. But I was pretty sure you wouldn't get the reference. Stupid people seldom do.

"I'm sure it feels really good to have your thumb up your ass all the time but it's cutting into your ability to "pay attention". You haven't noticed that the country has been free of terrorist attacks since 9/11."

It's funny how the administration that dropped the ball and allowed 9/11 to happen in the first place tries to take credit for this, but then again you Repiglicans are stupid enough to swallow it. I notice Osama bin Laden is still free and that over 4400 Americans have died in two failing wars since 9/11, but then again you guys hate the troops and don't care how many of them are killed or maimed.

According to the Bushpigs themselves all of those American deaths are caused by "terrorists," so perhaps the only reason the mainland US hasn't been attacked since is that we're offering delivery service.

Why go out to eat when the delivery is free?

Whoops! Did I miss some pop cultural reference that seems so important to you? And you think that makes you smarter than me? Fine. Give yourself another big pat on the back for that one, dipshit.

You're right on that the administration dropped the ball on 9-11. No argument from me on that one. It's even too obvious to discuss. That's not to say that the previous administration did its job either. The 9-11 plot was going on for a long time before Bush took office. What were those classified state documents that Sandy Berger shoved up his ass and destroyed? Could they have shown how he and his boss dropped the ball as well? I think so.

But after 9-11, Bush picked it up and ran. That counts too, dipshit. It's well-known how his national security views changed radically after 9-11. Of course I blame him for not preventing 9-11. That's his job and he was asleep on guard duty. No way he'll ever get out of that one.

Now that you brought it up, though, it supports my point. (Funny how stupid people always throw a hanging curve like this. Must be that they really don't understand what they're supposed to be debating in the first place.) The president's main responsibility is the national security, like I've said over and over again. How on Earth does "Yes, we can!", "change", national conversation, transcendence protect the country? It's a rhetorical question, dipshit.

As for your points about bin Laden and the war, first capturing or killing bin Laden hardly defines victory or defeat. This thing goes way beyond one single personality. This would be obvious to anyone who isn't addicted to auto massaging his prostate, so, again, why don't you try to cut back on this and learn to think instead of simply feeling good about yourself?

Next, your point about the "two failed wars" does address the essence of the Bush strategy. It's a good point. Good for you! Who gave you that idea? Here, of course, reasonable people can disagree. Aside from the fact that you're not reasonable, and can never be in your blissed-out state, I say it's a better strategy to try and regain the initiative rather than just wait for another attack while we hunt for bin Laden. This of couse was the Bush strategy and there have been very positive results so far--if we just focus on al Qaeda, like you do. Al Qaeda is just about washed up (although nobody says they've lost the ability to cause us damage, even catastrophic damage). They haven't been able to put together another strategic attack since 9-11. (You better look up what "strategic" means before blowing any more gas out of your ass about it.) Their network is fatally disrupted. The two failed wars play a central role in this disruption.

Victory and defeat in war aren't defined by body counts, dipshit. Al Qaeda isn't just trying to run up a big body count, where this so-called delivery service would be playing into their hands. They want to take us down as a nation and a culture, like they think they did to the USSR in Afghanistan in the 1980s. This should be obvious to anyone who isn't tickling his own prostate all the time. The 4400 fatalities were service men and women, dipshit. They volunteered, in case you don't know how the military is run these days. They volunteered to risk their lives to protect your right to massage your own prostate and then complain about everything. They deserve our respect and admiration, not our pity. And especially not our quitting before it's over because people want "national conversations" and "change".

Why would the 4400 combat fatalities show "failed wars"? It's too ridiculous to even have to explain why not. But it is a talking point for the prostate-massagers, like you, dipshit. 4400 fatalites sounds very bad and makes a big impression on the ignorant, like you, dipshit.

It's also too obvious to have to even mention (except to the swollen prostate crowd, like you, dipshit) that this war isn't over yet. So you can't say they're "failed" until they're over and one side lost. That hasn't happened yet, dipshit. I thought you said you'd been paying attention for the past seven years. Try paying attention to something beyond what makes you feel smarter than the rest. Look at the real world.

But why cast blame and rehash the past? Elections are about the future. Right, dipshit? How on Earth can massaging one's own prostate and gushing about "change" possibly end this war, except by quitting?

People know that McCain won't quit. By "people" I mean our enemies. So if McCain wins, they'll know it's all over for them except for the crying and whining. So that's just what they'll do: cry and whine. They'll call it "negotiate" but that makes no difference. At that point, we can and will make some deals with them. At that point, our soldiers, marines and sailors won't have to risk their lives as much. That's the only way. We can quit now and start a "national conversation" and feel good about ourselves, but for our enemies this will unequivocally mean victory. Do you imagine they'll stop with Iraq and Afghanistan? If so, you're even more of a dipshit than you've revealed so far.

The tapeworm replies: "Victory and defeat in war aren't defined by body counts, dipshit. Al Qaeda isn't just trying to run up a big body count, where this so-called delivery service would be playing into their hands. They want to take us down as a nation and a culture, like they think they did to the USSR in Afghanistan in the 1980s."

And they've almost done it. This is a worse country in every way that matters since 9/11. Our leaders are cowardly morons who think making women drink breast milk in airports is a valid security move. Our economy is in the toilet, largely because of the drain two failed wars are placing on it. Meanwhile the jihadists are still recruiting and still at large and as secure as ever. Pakistan is unable and unwilling to root out Al Qaeda, so bin Laden has a safe harbor that the Bushpigs are afraid to fuck with. Incompetent though they are, even they know the US doesn't have the muscle anymore to invade Pakistan. Hell, we can't even secure Baghdad.

But fortunately in 2006 the American people woke up and started the process of throwing out the torture-loving scumbag Repiglicans. In November we'll finish the job, increase the Dem lead in both houses, and delouse the executive branch. Habeas corpus will be restored and actual governing will take the place of looting the Treasury to make Halliburton rich. Sure, it will take a year or two to get out of the Iraq mess, but if McCain gets in we're guaranteed at least 6 more years there (and that's if he's only in for one term).

The next president is going to have a lot to deal with - a ruined economy, a tired and demoralized military, the rehabilitation of our world image, and - hopefully - getting the facts together and prosecuting as many Repiglican war criminals as possible. Not that I think it will happen, but I'd like to see Dick Cheney in the cell next to Manuel Noriega for the rest of his life.

It's nice that you care so little about the dead and the wounded Americans, tapeworm, and I know your only problem with the Iraqi dead is that there aren't enough of them, but even though they "volunteered" they didn't deserve to be thrown away for nothing. And that's what has happened, while malignant animals like you cheered. When the Army and the Bushpigs committed necrophilia on Pat Tillman's corpse, you cheered. You're a disgrace. Creatures like you think we should have lost another 50,000+ soldiers in Vietnam, another war that was lost long before it was over - and another war which never should have happened.

I don't know what the technical term is for someone who gets his rocks off from genocide, but if there is one it applies to you and your type. No amount of murder bothers you for a minute if it's done under your flag. If you had a tape of the My Lai massacre you'd grease up your fist and watch it 3 times a day.

No wonder your wife left you. Who wouldn't?

"No wonder your wife left you". What? There are too many good comebacks for this. This is why I said that stupid people like you always leave themselves open for more. But I won't use any of them. It's too unsportsmanlike. Shooting fish in a barrel. I will say, though that the main problem with this (for you) is that it makes it even more clear that my "thumb in the ass" comment hit a nerve. You think there must be something rather shameful about my life to match your addiction to self-massaging your prostate. Why not try "your wife left you"? Does this imply that your wife hasn't left you? Does this imply that you have a big dick, dipshit? Give yourself a big pat on the back (again). You're a real man. The problem with your big dick is that there's an even bigger dick connected to it.

I'm happy you agree that Al Qaeda hasn't been able to mount another strategic attack against us (ie. hasn't been able to take us down). You're just a short step from asking why. Because we mounted a military response (invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq) to a military situation or because we sit around and fret about "national conversations"?

I didn't say anything that would even imply that I don't care about "dead and wounded Americans". How's that for waving the bloody shirt? We disagree in that I say the best way to honor their deaths is to end the war on our terms; you say the best way to honor them is to end the war on the jihadist's terms. My opinion is based on the fact that they volunteered to die to defend the country, so I don't imagine they'd be honored to have us quit before it's over. But I really don't know. They haven't told me what they think since they're dead.

Your comment about my being a genocidifiliac was too stupid for words. Tell the truth, are you like fifteen years old?

The tapeworm replies: "I'm happy you agree that Al Qaeda hasn't been able to mount another strategic attack against us (ie. hasn't been able to take us down). You're just a short step from asking why. Because we mounted a military response (invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq) to a military situation or because we sit around and fret about "national conversations"?"

I think that anyone stupid enough to think that the military response has anything to do with the lack of another attack in the US is dumb enough to get a job with the Bushpigs.

The attack on Iraq was the fulfillment of jihadist dreams, and has in no way damaged their cause. That you can even entertain such fantasies reveals you to be purely ignorant - the worst sort of Cheney-gobbling fool.

"They haven't told me what they think since they're dead."

Not like you care. You want more dead. Murder stokes your fantasies.

As I said, no wonder your wife left you - and it has nothing to do with your tiny dick.

"Your tiny dick". So it's true after all. You're around fifteen years old. No wonder you have these stupid ideas. They're not really stupid, they're just the ideas of a 15-year old.

So tell me: now that you've discarded the US military as any kind of factor in the lack of another attack on the US, what is the reason?

"The attack on Iraq was the fulfillment of jihadist dreams". Maybe. But so what? Jihadists dream about a lot of stuff, like martyrdom. We've also fulfilled a lot of those dreams in Iraq. If you're trying to say that their strategy was to draw us into a conflict we couldn't win and thereby causing our downfall, then I say it's possible that this is true as well. I don't really know what their strategy is. Do you? Do you have any kind of information (as opposed to dipshit ranting) that shows that this is their strategy? But this would only be of academic interest at this point. We're already there. Right? This kind of debate would have had some relevance before the invasion but not after it. The point is that, no matter what their strategy is, they have to lose.

I never said that we had damaged their "cause" by invading Iraq. I said that we'd done them serious strategic damage. Even so, do you have any information that can support your claim that "the attack on Iraq...has in no way damaged [the jihadist] cause"? Anyway, like I said, it isn't over yet so I wouldn't expect that this "cause" be significantly damaged yet. But defeat will damage it beyond repair. But remember that I'm not really interested in damaging the "cause". I'm interested in their being defeated in a strategic sense. Naturally, once that happens, the "cause" will be a collateral damage because nobody wants to adhere to a losing cause because the "cause" will be irrelevant. "Irrelevant" means that they're no longer any threat to us. Only a few nut-cases, like today's KKK or Nazis and so forth.

Your confusion between the "cause" and the geopolitical entity itself shows how primitive your thinking is about all this. But now that I know you're only 15, it's not really a criticism of you. And, in the same primitive way, you seem to assume that if we damage the "cause" this will effect a strategic defeat on the jihadists. This is just ass-backwards. They suffer a strategic defeat, which causes their "cause" to lose traction. That's the way it has been with other "causes" like, communism and nazism.

It may be true that the war has served to recruit more jihadists than would have been recruited otherwise. But that's just speculation anyway. Besides, it's not even informed speculation since it compares today's situation to the one existing before the war. You have no reason to assume that the pre war situation would have continued as it was. Jihadism had been gaining recruits before we invaded Iraq. Is today's growth rate significantly greater than it was before the invasion?

Even if you could show that this is true, it wouldn't solve anything. We expected them to fight back. Now they're fighting back. What does this prove? It would be like someone in 1863 saying that we had caused a big "backlash" by invading the South during the Civil War. Of course we did. That was why we invaded. Obviously there would have been no backlash if we hadn't invaded, but then there would have been a truncated nation with little chance of surviving and a slave state on our border. Parallel with your position on Iraq, this would have been your principled and patriotic position if you had lived at the time.

See why I say you're such a fool?


The tapeworm replies: "So tell me: now that you've discarded the US military as any kind of factor in the lack of another attack on the US, what is the reason?"

Are you really this stupid or is it an act?

There hasn't been another attack because the first one did its job and is still working - the US, due to foolish leadership, is bogged down in two pointless wars and is spending huge amounts of money and wasting thousands of lives. From bin Laden's point of view, this was the perfect outcome. And Dumbya Bush and Dickless Cheney gave it to him.

"If you're trying to say that their strategy was to draw us into a conflict we couldn't win and thereby causing our downfall, then I say it's possible that this is true as well. I don't really know what their strategy is. Do you? Do you have any kind of information (as opposed to dipshit ranting) that shows that this is their strategy? But this would only be of academic interest at this point. We're already there. Right? This kind of debate would have had some relevance before the invasion but not after it. The point is that, no matter what their strategy is, they have to lose."

If we stay in Iraq indefinitely they've won. Up until now it's been a clear victory for them. As I pointed out, we can't even control Baghdad.

Idiots like you talk about "win" and "lose" in Iraq as though there's a scenario which will be a "win" that will stop the jihadists. This isn't just stupid, it's insanely stupid. IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. Repeat that to yourself over and over. Attacking Iraq as a move in the fight against Al Qaeda was COMPLETELY RETARDED and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. Even a moron like you should have an inkling of that by now.

"I never said that we had damaged their "cause" by invading Iraq. I said that we'd done them serious strategic damage. Even so, do you have any information that can support your claim that "the attack on Iraq...has in no way damaged [the jihadist] cause"? Anyway, like I said, it isn't over yet so I wouldn't expect that this "cause" be significantly damaged yet. But defeat will damage it beyond repair."

Yes, like "defeat" in Vietnam damaged the "cause" of the Cold War.

Like the morons that argued that point back then, you're making no sense. Your claims of "strategic damage" are stupid and baseless. Displacing millions of Iraqis and killing a few hundred thousand of them doesn't weaken the jihadists, it strengthens them by giving an additional reason to despise America.

"Even if you could show that this is true, it wouldn't solve anything. We expected them to fight back. Now they're fighting back."

Wow. You're actually stupid enough to think that Al Qaeda is doing much of the "fighting" in Iraq, aren't you? You really do have your mouth glued to the Cheney spigot.

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