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Roberts and Roe

02 Apr 2008 12:46 pm

Larison on the Chief Justice:

I don’t think that John Roberts sat before the Judiciary Committee and perjured himself when he said that he thought that Roe was the “settled law of the land” and then went on to say, “There’s nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent.” To expect that Roberts is a reliable anti-Roe vote is ultimately to believe him to be a liar, in which case it is not clear why anyone would trust him one way or the other.

I don’t believe that John Roberts is a liar either, but I don’t think his comments – delivered when he was being confirmed to the federal appeals court, not the Supreme Court – in any way preclude his voting to overturn Roe now that he's on the high court. (This is one of those rare occasions when I find myself agreeing with Media Matters.) A federal judge can’t overturn a precedent without more or less guaranteeing that he'll be reversed on appeal, so there’s no reason not to promise to faithfully apply it; a Supreme Court Justice, by contrast, can change long-settled law if he deems it necessary. And Roberts was very circumspect in his confirmation hearings about his opinion of Roe and Casey, going no further than the anodyne statement that Roe is “settled as a precedent of the court.”

The widespread confidence that Roberts will be content to chip away at Roe appears to be based, variously, on his confirmation-hearing comments, on amateur psychologizing about his moderate temperament, and on the assumption that no GOP President would risk his party's fortunes by actually appointing more than a handful of anti-Roe judges to the Supreme Court. My own confidence that he would overturn Roe - or at least revise it beyond recognition - is based on amateur psychologizing as well, in a sense, but I think I have a fair amount of evidence on my side.

At the risk of over-generalizing, I would venture that there are three crucial factors in predicting whether a male Supreme Court Justice would vote to overturn Roe: His judicial philosophy, his religious tradition and how seriously he takes it, and (perhaps most crucially) what his wife thinks about abortion. In Roberts, we have a man who is 1) a judicial conservative, of the sort that would be inclined to treat the penumbras and emanations that create the abortion license with a certain skepticism no matter what; 2) a Roman Catholic who chooses to attend one of the more conservative parishes in the Washington D.C. area; 3) the husband of a similarly-devout Roman Catholic, who serves as legal counsel for Feminists for Life (!); and 4) the father of two adopted children. (The relevance of that last point to a person's sentiments about the abortion debate should not be underestimated.) None of this makes him a certain vote against the Roe-Casey regime, but so far as prognostication goes it's hard to imagine stronger evidence - save a direct statement on the matter - in favor of counting him as such.

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Comments (112)

"I would venture that there are three crucial factors in predicting whether a male Supreme Court Justice would vote to overturn Roe: His judicial philosophy, his religious tradition and how seriously he takes it, and (perhaps most crucially) what his wife thinks about abortion"

"Conservatives" crack me up. According to the Conservative mantra on the role of the courts, only "judicial philosophy" should play any role into how Roberts or any other justice decides a case. A judge's religious tradition or the whims of his wife should have no role in how he or she decides cases. Can you imagine an LDS or Muslim judge deciding that polygamy be made legal because their religious traditions make it (or in the case of the LDS judge, once made it) ok? I'm sure that the Christianists in the GOP would be thrilled.

Of course Ross is not arguing that Roberts' religion, or the whims of his wife *should* play a role in his judicial decision-making. Instead, he's recognizing a pretty basic truth in human nature, ie that our surroundings often influence our political (or in this case, judicial) philosophy. Is that so hard to understand?

the father of two adopted children. (The relevance of that last point to a person's sentiments about the abortion debate should not be underestimated.)

Don't paint all adoptive parents with the same brush. I realize that the combination of factors for Roberts does add up in your argument, however I wanted to speak up for adoptive parents. I am incredibly grateful that the birth mother of my child did not elect abortion and that I have been blessed to be able to raise my son however that does not mean that I would not stand up for a woman's right to choose.

Jaime, yes it is hard to understand given the agruments of Conservatives against so-called judicial activism. I suppose you are saying that we put all pretense aside and assume that a judge appointed by a Republican president will and should make decisions based not on the law but on what is politically beneficial to his patrons. While I agree that this happens to some extent, any further migration in that directions will make us a banana republic. We will be a nation not of laws but rather one governed by tryanny of the majority or worse yet the will of the priviledged few.

jamie whines: "Of course Ross is not arguing that Roberts' religion, or the whims of his wife *should* play a role in his judicial decision-making. Instead, he's recognizing a pretty basic truth in human nature, ie that our surroundings often influence our political (or in this case, judicial) philosophy. Is that so hard to understand?"

Of course Ross is saying that Roberts' religion and personal circumstances matter - that's the entire point of his argument, in fact. It's an admission that "strict constructionism" is complete bullshit. Ross is wholly comfortable with the notion that Roe could be overturned by a cabal of right-wing SuperCatholics on the Supreme Court. It's an obvious case of hypocrisy, so don't kid yourself.

ann: Agreed. I'm an adoptive parent myself, and am somewhere in the mushy middle on abortion; I have two adoptive parent friends who are staunch abortion-rights advocates (one volunteers for Planned Parenthood, in fact). However, don't I think Ross's point was that *every* adoptive parent is anti-abortion, but that being an adoptive parent is a somewhat independent variable predictive of a predisposition to be opposed to abortion (independent, that is, of religious conviction).

George Orwell was basically atheistic in his outlook, but he was also sterile, and believed that contraception deformed relations between men and women and that abortion was an abomination. Given his highly idiosyncratic moral and political beliefs, it's hard to know precisely whence he derived his opinions about these topics, but I am not the only one to suspect that his sterility was a highly relevant psychological factor.

I think the same thing is true of some adoptive parents, either because their involvement in adoption makes them more aware of alternatives to abortion, or because of grattitude that their own child was not aborted by his or her birth mother, or (as in Orwell's case) a painful awareness of the preciousness of the gift of fertility. But clearly such conclusions are not universal, and clearly even a predisposition to be personally opposed to abortion wouldn't necessarily imply a pro-life position on the law (though, again, I would expect to see a certain positive correlation between the two views). I've never seen any statistics on whether adoptive parents are more pro-life or not, controlling for religious intensity, so it's possible that Ross's intuition (assuming he hasn't seen such statistics himself) is wrong on this. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's right.

Noah Millman writes: "I think the same thing is true of some adoptive parents, either because their involvement in adoption makes them more aware of alternatives to abortion, or because of grattitude that their own child was not aborted by his or her birth mother, or (as in Orwell's case) a painful awareness of the preciousness of the gift of fertility. But clearly such conclusions are not universal, and clearly even a predisposition to be personally opposed to abortion wouldn't necessarily imply a pro-life position on the law (though, again, I would expect to see a certain positive correlation between the two views). I've never seen any statistics on whether adoptive parents are more pro-life or not, controlling for religious intensity, so it's possible that Ross's intuition (assuming he hasn't seen such statistics himself) is wrong on this. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's right."

Of course there is no shortage of children waiting to be adopted and there never has been, so what such a "right intuition" really might amount to is a selfish wish for more, cheaper, brighter, healthier, younger adoption fodder, if you want to be cynical about it.

And there is no "controlling for religious intensity" on this topic. The lifer movement is almost totally driven by religious sentiment. Though I know non-religious people who are opposed to abortion to one degree or another, I haven't known any who (for instance) took part in picketing/harassing women at clinics. And as far as I know every person involved in actual violence against clinics was one sort of devout wackaloon or another.

TheBannedMoe gets it exactly. Ross is totally right that the personal circumstances that he identifies about Roberts would militate in favor of a conclusion that he might wish to overturn Roe. (Though I could also see him voting to uphold it but apply it narrowly.)

However, Ross' post is also a nice reminder to those conservatives who constantly lecture us on judicial restraint with respect to Roe-- it is certainly quite clear that a lot of religious conservatives latched onto the theory of judicial restraint not because of any commitment to neutral principles but because it gives them the result they want with respect to banning abortion. Conservatives who claim there is one right jurisprudential theory and that everyone who doesn't apply it is simply making up the law should be a bit more humble about what is really going on here.

TBMLAJ: re: selfish wishes: presumably all parents who limited their generosity to their biological offspring and did not adopt at all are even more selfish than those who adopted but didn't seek out a child with a serious medical condition or who was out of infancy. Right? I mean, that does follow logically from your premise.

I have never met anyone, either an adoptive parent or a prospective adoptive parent, who has complained that there aren't "enough" children, or that they could not find "fodder" cheap, bright, healthy or young enough. Have you ever met such a person? If so, I'd like his address so I could punch him in the face.

To give the devil his due, though, I should say that I think Dilan Esper has a point about what TBMLAJ is right about. Ross is making an implicit argument for diversity on the court, since he's admitting that one's background (religious, familial, etc.) has an independent impact on one's judgment in some cases, regardless of professed philosophy. That's not usually the conservative position on these matters.

And no, I did not intend to imply, in that last post, that TBMLAJ is the devil.

Ross,
As you likely know, a common alternative constitutional argument for abortion rights is to base the claim in the 14th Amendment guarantee of equal protection of the laws.

Let me re-phrase-I do not believe that Ross said judges *should* be influenced by religion, family etc.-but rather he recognized that they are. It's the difference between a normative judgment and the recognition of an objective reality.
And even if I am wrong in my interpretation of Ross' post, many, MANY liberals have wanted judges with the personal background to sympathize with the oppressed-so why complain when the shoe is on the other foot?

Noah Millman replies: "I have never met anyone, either an adoptive parent or a prospective adoptive parent, who has complained that there aren't "enough" children, or that they could not find "fodder" cheap, bright, healthy or young enough. Have you ever met such a person? If so, I'd like his address so I could punch him in the face."

Of course I'm referring (somewhat hyperbolically) to the way people behave, Noah, and not to what they say. The undeniable fact that there are plenty of available children who do not get adopted is compelling evidence for the conclusion that a whole lot of shopping is going on in the adoption market, and prospective adoptive parents are not satisfied with the, um, "supply." So I still think that when anyone makes the "more adoptions" argument for ending abortion they're playing to those unsatisfied observers. There's also a reason why the "unsatisfied" portion of the adoption market has been going overseas (and going to greater and greater expense) to try to obtain the "right" sort of "product."

I share your "punch in the face" sentiments but let's not pretend what I'm talking about isn't based in reality.

And I'm not the devil. There is no devil, but if there is, his name is Dick Cheney.

jamie asks: "Let me re-phrase-I do not believe that Ross said judges *should* be influenced by religion, family etc.-but rather he recognized that they are. It's the difference between a normative judgment and the recognition of an objective reality.
And even if I am wrong in my interpretation of Ross' post, many, MANY liberals have wanted judges with the personal background to sympathize with the oppressed-so why complain when the shoe is on the other foot?"

Who is complaining, jamie? I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy, which I realize is invisible to most conservatives. Ross craves extra-judicial influence on this matter - craves it deeply. Which goes to show one more time that the "strict constructionist" model conservatives claim for the courts is the purest sort of bullshit.

What about the fact that once Robert (and Alito) was safely on the Court, he refused to join the Scalia/Thomas concurrence in Gonzales v. Carhart which called for Roe to be overturned? I recently attended a lecture by Scalia in which he repeatedly stated that he and Thomas were the only two originalists serving on the Court, and, in the same lecture made a point of saving that Roe was incompatible with originalism.

This armchair psychologizing about Roberts' personal influences is necessary because prominent Republican politicians don't have the gumption and the leadership to make open arguments against the Roe status quo. They prefer to leave that minefield to the pundits and the legal scholars.

The fact that conservatives are reduced to pop psychology in trying to figure out which way Supreme Court justices wouild vote on Roe vs. Wade is telling in itself... and unfortunately, it strengthens the position of the Kmiecs and the Baceviches.

If you're one of those rare conservatives who's both resolutely against abortion and adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq, AND if those are far and away the two most important issues to you, it makes sense to ask: which of those issues can the next President address most quickly, easily and certainly.

So, for a Bacevich or a Kmiece, there are two questions:

1) How sure am I that President Barack Obama would pull our troops out of Iraq? Answer: pretty darn sure.

2) How sure am I that John McCain's appointees to the Supreme Court would reverse Roe v Wade? Answer: Nobody's sure if he'd appoint anti-abortion judges, nobody's sure if such judges would be confirmed, and nobody's sure they'd really turn out to be anti-abortion once on the bench.

So, IF ending abortion and ending the Iraq war are equally important to someone, it's sad but entirely logical that he'd trust Barack Obama to end the war more than he'd trust McCain to fight abortion.

MANY liberals have wanted judges with the personal background to sympathize with the oppressed-so why complain when the shoe is on the other foot?

Again, what TheBannedMoe said. When nominees are presented for confirmation, conservatives are constantly pretending that their side interprets the law and the other side legislates from the bench. And they pretend that their nominees will put their own beliefs aside and vote based on neutral principles (Bork's phrase) or act as an umpire (Roberts' phrase).

The reality is that these guys are chosen because of their backgrounds, and they choose the judicial philosophy that will lead to the results they like. At most, they will make principled decisions on issues that are more peripheral to them. Scalia, for instance, will apply his principles to oppose substantive due process limitations on punitive damages awards, because he isn't as morally offended by punitive damages as he is by abortion.

What I object to is the picture painted by conservatives regarding judicial nominations. Of course Roberts is informed by his own experience and ideology when deciding cases. How could we possibly ask that he, or any other judge, not be?

Jason, re your equal protection statement. Laws against abortion have nothing to do with equal protection. It's not like men can get abortions and women can't, or whites can get them and blacks can't, or any similar situations.

In fact, it's pretty clear that the equal protection clause had nothing to do with gender or sex discrimination in any way whatsoever.

The only equal protection argument I can see is that certain abortion laws only target the abortionist and not the woman who procures said abortion. I think that there is an equal protection issue there and that to be consistent, abortion laws should equally apply to both the abortionist AND the woman, or whoever else is involved in procurement.

As for Roberts, who knows? My guess is that he'd continue to uphold just about any restriction that comes before the court as not being an "undue buden" without explicitly overturning Casey/Roe and eventually it'll become so hollowed out that overturning it will be a mere formality, which wouldn't even really be necessary.

It also odepends of the makeup of the Court. If McCain wins and replaces say Stevens and Ginsburg with say Frank Easterbrook and a Judge Brown/Judge Sykes so that there's 6 solid conservatives + Kennedy on the bench, I could see Casey being overturned explicitly.

In fact, it's pretty clear that the equal protection clause had nothing to do with gender or sex discrimination in any way whatsoever. The only equal protection argument I can see is that certain abortion laws only target the abortionist and not the woman who procures said abortion. I think that there is an equal protection issue there and that to be consistent, abortion laws should equally apply to both the abortionist AND the woman, or whoever else is involved in procurement.

Now THAT's a strange position. Classifications based on gender aren't subject to constitutional scrutiny at all (so Bradley v. Illinois was correctly decided after all?), but classifications based on the difference between a medical professional and a civilian are not only subject to the equal protection clause but can be struck down as irrational?

You might want to think your position through a little more.

Many people seem to be saying that Ross's post automatically implies conservative hypocrisy. I don't think that necessarily follows. One could just as easily argue that Ross is arguing that Roberts' religious conviction gives him the strength to actually follow his judicial philosophy in the face of scorn from the characters at the NYT, etc. This could be viewed as the difference between Roberts and Kennedy, who is often accused of abandoning conservative causes in favor of popularity. I don't necessarily subscribe, but I think it is just as credible.

This is one of the defining issues of American politics over the past few decades. It drives countless single-issue voters, and plenty more like Ross himself who are disillusioned with one of the parties but unwilling to defect because of abortion. And yet ever since the Bork nomination blew up in their faces, the entire campaign to overturn Roe has been couched in hints, euphemisms, dog whistles, divination, and demographic profiling.

It's a disgrace.

This is one of the defining issues of American politics over the past few decades. It drives countless single-issue voters, and plenty more like Ross himself who are disillusioned with one of the parties but unwilling to defect because of abortion. And yet ever since the Bork nomination blew up in their faces, the entire campaign to overturn Roe has been couched in hints, euphemisms, dog whistles, divination, and demographic profiling.

Ah, but isn't that the inevitable result of judicializing the issue in the first place? A judge just can't promise to overturn a precedent, but nonetheless precedents are overturned. And everyone thinks sometimes that's a good thing.

Personally, given Carhart #2, I suspect Roberts will go the same way as Rehnquist. Abortion will continue to be a protected right, but there will be reduced scrutiny for legislated limits.

"In Roberts, we have a man who is 1) a judicial conservative, of the sort that would be inclined to treat the penumbras and emanations that create the abortion license with a certain skepticism no matter what..."

And how would he distinguish those penumbras and emanations from the ones in Griswold, which clearly is settled law? Let's try a hypothetical. Suppose in 2100 the people in, oh, North Dakota all get swept up into a strange cult religion, which we'll call Ooga Boogaism. And Ooga Boogaism says that you shouldn't alter your body for any reason, you should leave it the way Ooga Booga - their god - gave it to you. So they pass some laws banning, among other things, plastic surgery and surgical removal of benign growths. If you have a goiter, a benign tumor, a polyp, you can't take it out - or off. Are you seriously telling me that this legislation wouldn't violate some sort of right to bodily autonomy that's in the Constitution? (Putting aside the establishment issue. We could assume that the good secular humanists of North Dakota decide one day that the body should never be surgically altered instead.) Now, if it does violate some kind of implicit constitutional right, how would you distinguish these laws from abortion bans as far as rights go? I believe that Roe was wrongly decided because I think fetal life is a compelling state interest, but I think there is a right on which abortion bans infringe.

Asher, I hope for their sake that you never have children, lest they be treated as "goiters, polyps, and tumors"!!

Thanks, Ross-- for a moment there, I felt panic-stricken about Roberts' views on Roe but then I got to the part about his wife being a member of Feminists for Life and all was right with the world again :)

Someone made the point about views on abortion being tied to religion-- that doesn't have to be the case, and really shouldn't be, but history does bear out the flip side of this argument, that atheists are more likely than believers to de-value life (think Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, to pick one century).

MD, that's not the point. People have a right to do what they like with their body (within certain health-related limits), but if the thing they're trying to surgically remove from their body is a life worth protecting of its own, there's a compelling state interest in protecting that life which overrides the right to bodily autonomy. In my view. The fact that it's a life justifies abrogating the right, but it doesn't render the right nonexistent.

I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy, which I realize is invisible to most conservatives. Ross craves extra-judicial influence on this matter - craves it deeply. Which goes to show one more time that the "strict constructionist" model conservatives claim for the courts is the purest sort of bullshit.

BannedMoe: You've needlessly worked yourself into a lather over this post. I've never heard a conservative say that it is very likely that any human being appointed to a court will objectively follow his judicial philosophy with perfection. It is entirely consistent to believe that this or that conservative judicial philosophy is desirable, and that inevitably (humans being mighty imperfect creatures!) such philosophy will be employed by a human being overwhelmingly likely to be influenced (even at the subconscious level) by his passions, desires, biases, and umpteen million additional nefarious influences. Conservatives, after all, are skeptics when it comes to the perfectibility of human beings.

Many people seem to be saying that Ross's post automatically implies conservative hypocrisy. I don't think that necessarily follows. One could just as easily argue that Ross is arguing that Roberts' religious conviction gives him the strength to actually follow his judicial philosophy in the face of scorn from the characters at the NYT, etc.

You could argue that, but not easily. It's a big stretch, when the more natural conclusion is that Roberts et al. chose that judicial philosophy because it is inconsistent with Roe.

Personally, given Carhart #2, I suspect Roberts will go the same way as Rehnquist. Abortion will continue to be a protected right, but there will be reduced scrutiny for legislated limits.

Rehnquist never went that way. He dissented in Casey and said that Roe should be overturned, and never retracted that position.

I've never heard a conservative say that it is very likely that any human being appointed to a court will objectively follow his judicial philosophy with perfection.

You may know better, but I have heard plenty of conservatives who think Scalia and Thomas are consistent originalists and textualists.

Even under Roe, the state has a great deal of power to regulate abortion in the last 3 months of pregnancy, but the pro-life/coerced pregnancy movement has show little interest in such regulation. The agenda here is not the fetus, which as soon as it is born is of little interest to conservatives (he or she certainly has no claim on their tax dollars no matter how burdensome it will for the woman coerced into taking the risks to her health on bringing the child to term and then to raise it to adulthood), but rather to discourage sexual liberty of women and encourage their dependence on staying in the good graces of a man by emphasizing the catastrophic consequences of sex outside a relationship where she will be supported by a man, no matter how abusive that man might be.

a Supreme Court Justice, by contrast, can change long-settled law if he deems it necessary

Aaah, strict constructionist ideology at it's best. Never mind all the hooplah about legislating from the bench, if it's what you want it to be, it's all good, let's have judges change the law. Fabulous.

banned3Stooges - Of course there is no shortage of children waiting to be adopted and there never has been

Bullcrap. There is a shortage of physically and mentally healthy and quality adoptees of East Asian and European stock. Has been for a long time.
That there are minorities and people with great mental and physical disabilities "spare" does not do away with the desire of most families to have a healthy and promising adopted child with a future that looks like them or acts like them. It is natural human instinct and while there is flexibility in that some white or Asian families will go outside race...It's like going to an animal shelter to do an adoption hoping for a promising young labrador puppy and being told the only dogs available are great danes, retarded dogs, violent dogs shuffled over a decade between foster homes, and dogs with profound medical needs..

****************

Roe remains the showcase example of vast judicial arrogance and over reach. Even if you don't care about abortion as a big issue personally, you can favor it being overturned and sent to State Legislatures on the simple fact that in no other democracy did the Courts usurp the role of the People. From East Asia to Europe, excepting only Communist states and basic dictatorships like in Arab lands and Latin America - abortion law was created with the advice and consent of the People.
Worse, the usurpation was done in the US WHILE state legislatures were making considerable progress enacting liberalized abortion laws.

And knowledge of this has been the cancer that has poisoned US politics and judicial nominations for 35 years.

In Europe and in other democracies, the populations all passed laws LESS LIBERAL about partial birth abortion, late-term abortion at the whim of the mother. All require a minor to have parental consent or court consent if parents refuse. The vast majority require the woman wishing abortion take counseling on alternatives like adoption, and learn first what state resources are available to help the woman carry to term and not disrupt her career or education that the woman may not know about. They maintain neutrality in counseling so it is not feminists paid by the abortion referral by for-profit centers, nor Fundie counselors saying they will roast in hell if they "murder". 12 weeks is the normal cutoff.

shillyshally writes: "It is entirely consistent to believe that this or that conservative judicial philosophy is desirable, and that inevitably (humans being mighty imperfect creatures!) such philosophy will be employed by a human being overwhelmingly likely to be influenced (even at the subconscious level) by his passions, desires, biases, and umpteen million additional nefarious influences. Conservatives, after all, are skeptics when it comes to the perfectibility of human beings."

Who expects "perfection," chuckles? I'm just saying the claim that "strict constructionism" guides assclowns like Thomas and Scalia is pure bullshit. They're party hacks, pure and simple. The notion of what it means to be a "strict constructionist" isn't based on what the Founding Fathers wanted - it's based on what movement conservatives wanted when they started the Federalist Society.

That's why you never heard a peep out of the Federalists when Bush v. Gore was accepted by the Supreme Court. These people have no genuine principles except for their desire for power.

chris ford says: "Bullcrap. There is a shortage of physically and mentally healthy and quality adoptees of East Asian and European stock. Has been for a long time.
That there are minorities and people with great mental and physical disabilities "spare" does not do away with the desire of most families to have a healthy and promising adopted child with a future that looks like them or acts like them. It is natural human instinct and while there is flexibility in that some white or Asian families will go outside race...It's like going to an animal shelter to do an adoption hoping for a promising young labrador puppy and being told the only dogs available are great danes, retarded dogs, violent dogs shuffled over a decade between foster homes, and dogs with profound medical needs.."

Thanks for making my point for me in your usual Krazy Klan Klaven way, chris.

I would also like to take this opportunity to tell your parents that I'm sorry they were stuck with a retarded, violent son. They should have adopted instead.

"You could argue that, but not easily. It's a big stretch, when the more natural conclusion is that Roberts et al. chose that judicial philosophy because it is inconsistent with Roe."

Isn't this just basically saying that the more natural conclusion is the one that confirms your beliefs that you stated at the beginning? I don't see anything else supporting your assertion above. I've never particularly had a dog in this fight, but I think the logic that is being followed here is basically - conservative has a point of view, there is an argument that this could be hypocritical, person is conservative, therefore person's point of view is by default hypocritical. I'm sure that is some sort of logical fallacy, but I've never been one for logic. Thankfully I am not alone on this thread in that regard.

I admit it is it interesting to read people speak about killing unborn children with such "matter of factness" as if the whole subject is just a bit tedious but required because of all those damnable conservatives.
And then MD mentioned the obvious. And in a few posts we saw that religion and even being conservative has little to do with acknowledging the fact that the unborn child is a person is a human being and therefore a person.
Now on to the issue before us:
Roberts is a brilliant mind and an excellent constitutional jurist. therefore he will not find a "right" to abortion in the constitution because there is no such right. As for Roe and Casey, when there are enough justices to overrule them, it will be done. How it will be done remains to be seen. but if he actually revisits the central question in Roe, the court may be required to arrive at a different conclusion due to the amazing advances in medicine.
You may recall that Blackmun stated that if the "fetus" was a person, that the Appellant's (Roe's) argument would fail. The development of the 4d ultrasound shows us a window into the womb. We can see the unborn baby. so then it raises the suggestion by Jason - what about the 14th Amendment? Well the 14th amendment applies the right to life and due process and equal protection to the states.

It is after all a simple argument. The law does not permit us to kill people without due process. The unborn child must be its genus and species be included in the group human beings. Human beings are persons. One cannot kill persons without due process of law. The state therefore will have to protect unborn children to some degree in order to not act in violation of the constitution.


now I know this may bother some people who wish to claim that this is only a position held be conservative thinkers. George Orwell was not conservative. Nat Hentoff is not conservative. Protecting innocent people is neither a liberal nor a conservative position. It is merely the correct moral position at all times.

Re: John Jakubczyk's ost at 4:09 -

It must be incredibly easy to pass the bar exam in Arizona.

Moe, being an idiot and an ass, as so often:

in fact. It's an admission that "strict constructionism" is complete bullshit.

Dilan, more reasonably stating a similar point:

Conservatives who claim there is one right jurisprudential theory and that everyone who doesn't apply it is simply making up the law should be a bit more humble about what is really going on here.

Er, no. Simply, no. There's nothing that argues against the idea that there is, in fact, one just and sane way to apply judicial review at the Supreme Court level in this line of thought. As an experiment, Dilan, you might consider that some of us believe that there is one absolute morality of whether it is right to, say, cheat on your wife. But, in fact, we don't just take a person's views on this into account when we are trying to _estimate what they will actually do_ -- we include a number of other factors, such as the opinions of friends who influence this person, how their marriage is going, whether the person in question has bad impulse control, etc. This doesn't really require any humility about the idea that adultery is wrong -- it just suggests that we are sane, and capable of analyzing actual human beings. That Scalia and Thomas, who are as originalist as the current Court gets, sometimes nod is not surprising -- so did Homer. That they nod most when it's personally tempting is also not surprising. Part of the value of the conservative approach is that it at least makes the temptation, present in most every man and woman, to make one's on views the guidepost and God of all men, a little easier to resist. The cases where Ginsburg rules against her political inclinations, sympathies, and well, her feelings, are considerably rarer, when there is even the remotest absurd "living constitution" pretext for doing otherwise.

TMoC, being a dishonest ass and an idiot, writes: "As an experiment, Dilan, you might consider that some of us believe that there is one absolute morality of whether it is right to, say, cheat on your wife. But, in fact, we don't just take a person's views on this into account when we are trying to _estimate what they will actually do_ -- we include a number of other factors, such as the opinions of friends who influence this person, how their marriage is going, whether the person in question has bad impulse control, etc. This doesn't really require any humility about the idea that adultery is wrong -- it just suggests that we are sane, and capable of analyzing actual human beings. That Scalia and Thomas, who are as originalist as the current Court gets, sometimes nod is not surprising -- so did Homer. That they nod most when it's personally tempting is also not surprising. Part of the value of the conservative approach is that it at least makes the temptation, present in most every man and woman, to make one's on views the guidepost and God of all men, a little easier to resist. The cases where Ginsburg rules against her political inclinations, sympathies, and well, her feelings, are considerably rarer, when there is even the remotest absurd "living constitution" pretext for doing otherwise."

You've broken your own indoor stupidity record here, TMoC. You conservatives love to cloak yourselves in the loincloth of your sky fairy and pretend that you and only represent absolute and true morality. You extend this when pushing this "strict constructionist" BULLSHIT to claiming that you and only you follow the path the Founding Fathers began. It's certifiably nuts to claim that the founders were all in lockstep on process, of course. Pretending there's no ambiguity in a human document and that all matters can be decided AS THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN over 200 years ago isn't just wrong, it's childish and stupid.

I realize that at your core folks like you and Hector have no respect for constitutional democracy, but you could at least try to understand how it works. You don't even try. You retreat to an absolutist position because it's easy and because others have done all the work for you.

Do you even know what the Federalist Society is, or what kind of effect it has had on your own thinking, even if that effect has been incorrect? I'll say it again. The Federalist Society isn't an honest engine of philosophy - it's an ends-based group, a sort of think tank devoted to achieving right-wing ends not because they're constitutionally-based but because they're right-wing ends.

This is why you never - EVER - see the Federalist Society take a position or work towards anything that might offend the right. Unlike the ACLU, the Federalist gang doesn't give a sweet fucking damn about rights. It just cares about the right.

Jam that in your absolutist pipe and smoke it.

As for the morality of cheating on your wife, when will the Family Values gang mention that John McCain was a serial adulterer and that Cindy McCain, prospective First Lady, was a lowlife homewrecking whore who cheated with Mr. Straight Talk while he was married to his first wife? I know the answer is "never," but can your absolutist self tell me why that's so? If a prospective Democratic candidate and his wife had the same history we'd never hear the end of it.

Isn't this just basically saying that the more natural conclusion is the one that confirms your beliefs that you stated at the beginning? I don't see anything else supporting your assertion above.

There's plenty of evidence for it, in that there are very few people going around asserting that they personally favor banning abortions but feel that Roe was correctly decided. Further, there's also evidence for it in the fact that most of the anti-Roe advocates of orginalism and textualism are inconsistent about applying it in other areas where the results don't match up with their personal preferences.

Well the 14th amendment applies the right to life and due process and equal protection to the states.

Not even Scalia or Bork believes that the Fourteenth Amendment compels a ban on abortion, because the 14th Amendment contains a state action requirement. In other words, if some private person, with no help from the state, kills you, or falsely imprisons you, or steals your property, those may be crimes, but they aren't violations of the Constitution. And states aren't required to criminalize even murder in all instances; think about such things as insanity defenses, self-defense doctrine, etc.

Even if we assume the fetus is a "person" under the 14th Amendment, that would, at the most, prohibit state governments from performing themselves.

Part of the value of the conservative approach is that it at least makes the temptation, present in most every man and woman, to make one's on views the guidepost and God of all men, a little easier to resist. The cases where Ginsburg rules against her political inclinations, sympathies, and well, her feelings, are considerably rarer, when there is even the remotest absurd "living constitution" pretext for doing otherwise.

Marquis, singling out Ginsburg shows your lack of credibility. I know she was an ACLU lawyer (which apparently convicts her among conservative talk radio hosts), but she is simply not this big leftist as conservative talk radio portrays her. You should read her work-- you will find, fascinatingly, that she relies on text, history, context, original meaning, and precedent, just like Scalia does. Heck, they even like each other, and Bork, who worked with her on the DC Circuit, said she was always extremely concerned about ensuring the cases came out consistent with the law.

William O. Douglas was a left-wing Supreme Court justice. Ruth Ginsburg is not. And you might want to learn a little more about this subject matter before popping off about her again.

In any event, your premise, that judicial conservativism makes one less likely to insert one's personal beliefs into the jurisprudence, is demonstrably wrong. To pick an obvious example, Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas was ALL ABOUT HIS PERSONAL HATRED OF GAYS. Indeed, Thomas was so disgusted by it that he didn't sign it and entered a separate dissenting opinion where he said that no, in fact, sodomy laws were stupid.

Similarly, Scalia's personal beliefs are all over his approach to war on terror cases, the pledge of allegiance, Bush v. Gore, the 11th Amendment and state sovereignty, etc.

All these guys bring their personal beliefs to the table. This whole debate is about nothing more than egotistical conservatives who like to tell themselves that their contested philosophical beliefs are in fact self evident and dictated by a supreme being. A truly smart person, unlike Scalia, knows that he or she is not that smart.

Dilan

So I'm reading along all fine & well concerning your understanding of Ginsburg’s jurisprudence when all of a sudden I encounter this.

“To pick an obvious example, Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas was ALL ABOUT HIS PERSONAL HATRED OF GAYS. Indeed, Thomas was so disgusted by it that he didn't sign it and entered a separate dissenting opinion where he said that no, in fact, sodomy laws were stupid.”

(Bold emphasis mine)

Now you seemed to be implying that you had textured, nuanced & sophisticated understanding of the law.

But then you pull this out of nowhere. A less compelling or substantiated bold faced accusation would be hard to make. (& then you throw theism in as the culprit)

So my question to you is – Care to elaborate?

Fitz:

Scalia's long dissent was the principal dissent in Lawrence. In it, he thundered about the rationality of laws banning homosexual conduct on the ground that it was immoral. Thomas wrote a short dissent that said he thought this was an uncommonly silly law, and that if he were a member of the Texas legislature, he would vote to repeal it, but that he didn't think it was unconstitutional.

That's not an opinion one bothers to write if the principal dissent's vociferous defense of the wisdom as well as the constitutionality of sodomy laws rreflects one's own views.

Dilan,

I have no particular fondness for Scalia, but it's absurd to say he hates homosexuals. He believes, like most people throughout history, that homosexual intercourse is immoral. Not the same thing.

As an analogy, I do want to adulterers them punished by the force of law, probably with fines and such. Does that mean I hate adulterers? Certainly not.

Scalia, while I disagree with him, actually raised a powerful and troubling point. Unless the defenders of homosexuality can offer a convincing reason that we can continue to condemn adultery, concensual incest, wife-swapping, bestiality, and polygamy while also legitimizing homosexuality, then the path forward is fraught with danger. Now there may well be such a reason that these actions can continue to be condemned while homosexuality is tolerated. However the people like Dilan, as far as I know, are not making that case. Nor are they making a case for why St. Paul and St. Jude, as well as Plato, were wrong when they condemned homosexuality. That case can also be made, presumably, but I wish more people would make it instead of making silly arguments about a nonexistent right to privacy.

NB: I am not arguing that homosexual acts should be illegal. I don't think they should be. But I do think we need more careful reasoning about sexual morality as well as other forms of morality. Else we wind up giving away the store to the devotees of polygamy, incest, bestiality and swinging.

Dilan,

I stand by my point about Ginsburg. I didn't say she's a monster (I know that she's by all reports a nice woman, and a formidable intellect) -- but I think the cases where she rules against her inclinations and _there is some pretext under her philosophy for doing so_ are considerably rarer than the cases where Scalia or Thomas do so. That's obviously a judgment, but I don't think it's a false one. And yes, I'll agree that she's more consistent and less egregious than Douglas or some others I can think of -- I imagine she'd have written a Roe that held together a little better.

There's plenty of evidence for it, in that there are very few people going around asserting that they personally favor banning abortions but feel that Roe was correctly decided.

Er -- maybe. Or it's evidence that Roe is such a tissue of nonsense that nobody who doesn't have a personal interest in upping the number of dead fetuses can possibly manage to swallow it. In other words, it's good evidence that Roe is terrible, and for little else.

I realize that at your core folks like you and Hector have no respect for constitutional democracy, but you could at least try to understand how it works. You don't even try. You retreat to an absolutist position because it's easy and because others have done all the work for you.

I'll ignore Moe's silliness about "knowing what the Federalist Society is" and aim at this. Actually, I'm not sure Hector even claims to be much of a fan of constitutional democracy, per se, so I'll let him handle that. I don't worship it, but it's a pretty good form of government, as they go. I think that moderate "originalism" (which doesn't proclaim infallible knowledge of intent, if you've read much on the subject -- certainly, say, Bork makes no such absurd claims) is much more respectful of both constitution and democracy than the positions I suspect you, Moe, tend towards. You tend to dislike the Constitution when it doesn't agree with your notions of justice, and you certainly don't mind un-democratic resolution of social controversy, as with abortion. Meanwhile, neither Scalia nor I claims that our preferred option, abortion as illegal, is enshrined in the Constitution, in secret decoder ring form. Indeed, Scalia wrote a rather scathing article here and there arguing against that (fairly silly) proposition, put forth by some conservatives. The Constitution is not a magic machine for enshrining all "right" views. Liberals and conservatives sometimes act as if this isn't true, of course, but I think really it is essentially more of a liberal problem (peculiar , in a certain sense, given the heritage of devotion to procedure and method over substance and virtue that also informs strains of modern liberalism).

Marquis,

How do _you_ think that someone who is with the Republicans on abortion, but with the Democrats on, say, most issues of foreign policy, economics and the environment, ought to vote?

Do you think it's the case that abortion is the most definitive and substantial difference between the parties these days? It's true that there are a fair number of pro-life Democratic congressmen (including from Boston and Providence, those liberal meccas). But the party essentially will never let people like that rise to the top, certainly not to the presidential nomination.

Assuredly I'm not voting for McCain. I suppose I would be OK with voting for Hillary. But Obama isn't even the 'safe, legal and rare' type of Democrat-- he supported a particularly nasty bit of legislation about born-alive infants.

Voting third-party or write in is looking more attractive by the day.

Hector writes: "I have no particular fondness for Scalia, but it's absurd to say he hates homosexuals. He believes, like most people throughout history, that homosexual intercourse is immoral. Not the same thing.

As an analogy, I do want to adulterers them punished by the force of law, probably with fines and such. Does that mean I hate adulterers? Certainly not.

Scalia, while I disagree with him, actually raised a powerful and troubling point. Unless the defenders of homosexuality can offer a convincing reason that we can continue to condemn adultery, concensual incest, wife-swapping, bestiality, and polygamy while also legitimizing homosexuality, then the path forward is fraught with danger."

Hector, how the hell do you know that Scalia doesn't hate homosexuals? His demeanor when the subject comes up suggests his strong distaste for it, his inability to deal with the entire notion. For a man of his age and background to hate homosexuals would be far from unusual - it would probably even be usual. Even Ross's Saint Buckley once threatened to punch a "queer" in the face on NATIONAL TV. There would be nothing surprising about Scalia being a homo-hater - nothing at all.

The rest of your comment makes me think you should go sodomize a dead fetus, because you're clearly crazy and malignant enough to do so. People who compare consensual sexual relations between adults to bestiality and incest are contemptible morons.

I'm damn glad I'm not related to you, Hector. At your age there's simply no excuse for being such a retrograde bigoted dumbass.

Moe,

I didn't compare homosexual acts to beastiality and incest. I said that if consent is the only basis on which we are to deem a sexual act right or wrong, then we no longer have any grounds to say that (consensual) incest or bestiality or for that matter polygamy or adultery is wrong. That, I stand by.

One can make other arguments for why homosexuality ought to be tolerated but incest should not. Actually, it would be helpful if you guys would make such arguments instead of blithering about consenting adults and the right to privacy.

Dilan

You know not of what you speak.

You attempt to use Thomas to refute Scalia; the truth of the matter is that Thomas joined Scalia’s dissent and his short & elegant critique was 100X more scathing of the majority opinion than Scalia’s.

Thomas reference to “uncommonly silly" is a direct quote from the Griswold v. Connecticut dissent of Stewart. That opinion is infamous for it's proven inability to predict the consequences of judicial action on our social fabric. It is infamous for being the foundation of the privacy rights articulated later in Roe & invalidating birth control regulations that directly led to the separation of sex & procreation (that in turn) led to the sexual revolution and all its attendant consequences. It is also infamous because neither the majority opinion or the dissent ever raise the public policy objections that artificial birth control bans were traditionally based in (i.e. – family breakdown)

Now – Obviously Thomas is aware of this. As such he is taking a slightly veiled yet scathing swipe at the majority all the more damaging due to its subtle nature.

He is saying: that- like Griswold, the majority opinion in Lawrence will lead to the same pernicious and debilitating ramifications both legally & culturally as Griswold did.

Now – as a non-lawyer I can’t expect you to understand the finer points of legal precedent. Nevertheless, coming after a call for greater sensitivity to the views of Ginsburg, your misunderstanding is particularly crude.

Read in its proper context – Thomas’s brilliantly short dissent in Lawrence should go down in history as one of the most succinct and effective concurring dissent in legal history.

While you may have missed it’s true meaning: Rest assured, legal minds and Thomas’s fellow Jurors could not help but to understand the powerful and prophetic critique it is.

TMoC "replies": "I'll ignore Moe's silliness about "knowing what the Federalist Society is" and aim at this."

Of course you'll ignore it, because you have no honest answer for it. You cons like to pretend the Federalist Society is a group of high-minded academics out to reclaim the sanctity of the original Constitution, when what it really is is a politically-motivated hatchet group. That's how it functions, that's what it does.

"You tend to dislike the Constitution when it doesn't agree with your notions of justice, and you certainly don't mind un-democratic resolution of social controversy, as with abortion. "

This is truly dimwitted. I don't "dislike the Constitution," in whole or in part. And of course I don't mind it when a decision goes my way - even if the reasoning is debatable. But then you don't, either, since I'm quite sure you were thrilled with Bush v. Gore.

Is Roe debatable? Of course it is! So fucking what, chuckles, deal with it. The Constitution provides ways of dealing with it, so deal. I don't know how many times I have to say that I welcome Roe being overturned, in a way, because it will ramp up the Culture War and you dinosaurs will get your leathery asses kicked. There are hundreds of thousands of women who will get involved seriously if it happens, and they'll easily dispatch rosary-clenching wanna-be Jesuits like Fitz and Co.

"Liberals and conservatives sometimes act as if this isn't true, of course, but I think really it is essentially more of a liberal problem (peculiar , in a certain sense, given the heritage of devotion to procedure and method over substance and virtue that also informs strains of modern liberalism)."

Virtue? Oh, you mean Dumbya Bush praying to Stickboy before he orders torture... got it. Yeah, that's a very impressive record of virtue you cons have.

As for "procedure and method" - it's a con/Federalist Society gem of jurisprudence that sees nothing wrong with denying appeals by condemned men based on innocence if the appeal isn't made in a timely fashion. But I guess that's the sort of restraint a virtuous guy like you admires.

Some of you may want to actually read the Opinion


"Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means. Social perceptions of sexual and other morality change over time, and every group has the right to persuade its fellow citizens that its view of such matters is the best. That homosexuals have achieved some success in that enterprise is attested to by the fact that Texas is one of the few remaining States that criminalize private, consensual homosexual acts. But persuading one's fellow citizens is one thing, and imposing one's views in absence of democratic majority will is something else. I would no more require a State to criminalize homosexual acts--or, for that matter, display any moral disapprobation of them--than I would forbid it to do so."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=02-102#opinion1

Fitz says: "Now – Obviously Thomas is aware of this. As such he is taking a slightly veiled yet scathing swipe at the majority all the more damaging due to its subtle nature.

He is saying: that- like Griswold, the majority opinion in Lawrence will lead to the same pernicious and debilitating ramifications both legally & culturally as Griswold did. "

Here's what's really behind the lunacy of the cons on these issues. The lie that they're upset about the "legal reasoning" in the decisions is - again - pure bullshit. It's bullshit so pure that it boggles the mind.

What they REALLY are incensed about is the fact that the highest court in the land dismisses their religiously-based fantasies as crap unworthy of polluting our legal structure. Laws against condoms or birth control? The Supreme Court says they're silly. Laws against interracial marriage? The Supreme Court says they're malignantly stupid. Laws against homosexual activity? The Supreme Court wonders why any sane person would think those were a good idea. You think the fetus is a person? The Supreme Court sees nothing in the Constitution that says so, and quite rightly - nothing in there even SUGGESTS that a fetus is a person, and our culture hasn't traditionally said it was, so deal with it, thumpers!

The "pernicious and debilitating ramifications" are all in your heads, thumpers! You hate us for our freedoms. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one! Don't wanna gobble a crank? Don't gobble one! Don't wanna use a condom? Pay child support and get syphilis, you idiot!

It's 2008. Grow up.

I like how Fitz quotes Scalia's slightly couched reference to the "homosexual agenda" (and please don't tell me that's not a purposeful sign to the yahoos) and fakes obliviousness to the fact that "homosexual agenda" is a favored phrase of every right-wing nutjob in the country.

It's really no wonder that Fitz has had trouble deciding whether to join the Jesuits. But I hear they have stringent screening these days...

I have no particular fondness for Scalia, but it's absurd to say he hates homosexuals. He believes, like most people throughout history, that homosexual intercourse is immoral. Not the same thing.

No Hector, he believes that laws that put gays in JAIL are appropriate assertions of morality. That's bigotry. Period.

As an analogy, I do want to adulterers them punished by the force of law, probably with fines and such. Does that mean I hate adulterers? Certainly not.

Bad analogy. Gays are a historically unfairly oppressed and persecuted group, like blacks, jews, and women. Comparing gays to people who cheat on their wives is offensive.

I stand by my point about Ginsburg. I didn't say she's a monster (I know that she's by all reports a nice woman, and a formidable intellect) -- but I think the cases where she rules against her inclinations and _there is some pretext under her philosophy for doing so_ are considerably rarer than the cases where Scalia or Thomas do so. That's obviously a judgment, but I don't think it's a false one.

Marquis, you have cited no cases to support this claim. I read every Supreme Court opinion. Trust me, there isn't a basis for this conclusion. Ginsburg, for instance, voted to restrict punitive damages awards under due process restrictions. She has voted for the business position in many business cases, such as authoring the opinion upholding copyright term extension. She votes with the "conservatives" all the time. She's not even the most liberal member of the Court (Stevens is).

You need to read primary sources and stop relying on conservative media. They have apparently been defaming Ruth Ginsburg for years, and conservatives have been believing it.

Fitz:

Your view of what Thomas' concurrence means is, shall we say, ideosyncratic. Among just about everyone in the legal community, it was seen as a HUGE diss of Scalia, who certainly did NOT think that the law in Griswold OR the law in Lawrence was silly.

Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means.

Fitz, you are reading this statement completely wrong. He's just saying he has nothing against gays participating in the political process. In that same opinion, he compares gays to those who practice bestiality and pedophilia, and says that governments which throw gays in jail are acting perfectly rationally and that the state interest in throwing gays in jail is legitimate. He also endorses traditional moral condemnations of gays. And he does that in hateful, vociferous language. It's an ugly document that only a bigot would endorse.

Uh, Dilan, I consider your whole world view offensive, so if you didn't find me offensive, I would think there was something wrong.

Whether homosexuals were 'unfairly' oppressed and persecuted depends entirely on your view of the moral status of homosexuality. If it's a serious moral crime, then the societies of the Middle Ages were right to 'persecute' and 'oppress' homosexuals. Much like the medieval treatment of witches. We don't believe in witches today, so we think they were unfairly put to death. But if we thought that there were actually people who were actually using the Infernal Powers, then it would be appropriate and right to have executed them without mercy. As for the Jews, they were certainly oppressed at some times, and not so much at other times, during the Middle Ages. The _racial_ anti-Semitism that Nazi Germany exemplified was a distinctly modern phenomenon, born of perverted 'science' (or rather, scientism) and not of religion.

Now I believe the case can be made why homosexuality is innate and therefore, at least subjectively, not a serious moral offence in the way that, say, adultery or incest is. I believe that argument myself, to a certain degree. But you need to make that case, and you also need to make the case why St. Paul and St. Jude were wrong when they explicitly condemned sodomy. It would help your case if instead of throwing around silly accusations of bigotry, you would carefully consider and think about the arguments against homosexuality and then try to refute them.

Scalia's dissent, whether or not you agree with him, was certainly a maasterpiece of reasoning, compelling and troubling, couched in brilliant rhetoric. I believe the man has no personal animus towards gays. One does not have to agree with him to worry about a future in which adultery, bestiality, polygamy, wife-swapping, and incest can no longer be the object of condemnation and legal sanction. I think, Dilan, you would be well advised not to imagine everyone who disagree with you is a bigot. That's not very 'liberal' of you, you know. Scalia is quite obviously smarter than most of the other people on the court, and I say this as a man o the Left.

NB: I am not saying that the medievals were _right_ to persecute homosexuals, but I am saying that there's more room for disagreement about how a state ought to deal with homosexuality, than there is about racism.

Whether homosexuals were 'unfairly' oppressed and persecuted depends entirely on your view of the moral status of homosexuality.

No, Hector, it doesn't. Gays have been beaten up and killed for generations. They have been fired from their jobs and evicted from their apartments. They have been rousted by the police. They have been forced into the closet.

I understand in theory one can have a moral objection to homosexuality while opposing gay bashing and discrimination against gays and lesbians. In practice, though, most of the "moral" opposition to homosexuality crowd is like you, justifying the persecution of gays and lesbians through phony moral reasoning (which is stupid as well, it basically comes down to "2000 years ago, ignorant people said that my hallucinated imaginary friend didn't want men to put their penises into other men, so therefore it is immoral")

The truth is, moral opposition to homosexuality is in most instances a cover for bigotry.

As for Scalia, far from brilliant, his dissent in Lawrence was a screed about how unless the state retains the right to throw gays in jail, our entire moral foundation will crumble. And yes, only a man who truly hates gays and lesbians with every fiber of his being would ever write such a thing.

Hector writes: "Whether homosexuals were 'unfairly' oppressed and persecuted depends entirely on your view of the moral status of homosexuality. If it's a serious moral crime, then the societies of the Middle Ages were right to 'persecute' and 'oppress' homosexuals."

In your own small and intellectually immature way you're even more contemptible than the craziest, most extreme right-wingers who post here, Hector. You're young and you're well-educated, and you really have no excuses for writing this sort of revolting horseshit.

You're going to go one of two ways, I think. You'll either become a genuine human being or you'll move so far to the right that you won't recognize yourself. But you will change, because what you are now is an unstable bundle of confusion.

Good luck.

Dilan,

Don't you see that you prove Scalia's point every time you argue that wife-swapping, pornography, etc. ought to be tolerated? (I'm pretty sure you _have_ made such arguments before.)

It is a fact that in the aftermath of Lawrence v. Texas, adultery laws in some states have been struck down. Does this not prove Scalia's point?

Here's a simple question for you. Do you think that adultery, consensual incest (say brother-sister), polygamy, prostitution, pornography, and incest ought to be against the law. Assume that no force or coercion is involved. If your answer is 'yes', then why? If you can give me a convincing argument why full acceptance of homosexuality does not imply acceptance of these other things, then I will concede your point.

I think such an argument can be made (how logically strong it is remains to be proven). But you haven't made it and as long as you invoke 'consent' alone, Scalia's point stands.

Dilan

"Your view of what Thomas' concurrence means is, shall we say, ideosyncratic. Among just about everyone in the legal community, it was seen as a HUGE diss of Scalia, who certainly did NOT think that the law in Griswold OR the law in Lawrence was silly."

You know nothing of the law, legal philosophy or the personalities or philosophies involved in jurisprudence.

Yours is a just-so-story, post-hoc rationalization of your ignorance on the subject. You have no idea what "just about everyone in the legal community" thinks about anything.

What is germane is what Thomas and other constructionists with natural law philosophies understand the constitution to permit.

The legal community do know this strain of legal thought and understand that Thomas quoting Stewart's “uncommonly silly" language from his dissent in a case as important and foundational to the sexual autonomy agenda grounded in Griswold v. Connecticut is anything but "coincidental".

Your insistence on the bigotry of Scalia reveals your mistake. If Thomas though moral prohibitions on homosexuality were bigoted or even "silly" why would he predicate his hypothetical opposition to them on the basis of allotment of finite “law enforcement resources." rather than a direct appeal to the liberty interests and humanity of homosexuals?

If I were a member of the Texas Legislature, I would vote to repeal it. Punishing someone for expressing his sexual preference through noncommercial consensual conduct with another adult does not appear to be a worthy way to expend valuable law enforcement resources."

{Lawrence v. Texas -Justice Thomas Dissent}

Yours is/was a layman’s tepid foray into judicial interpretation. As such a strong advocate for the feminist/autonomous living constitutionalism strain of judicial politics you naturally read Thomas’s dissent for what proved valuable to your worldview rather than for what its author truly meant.

Your tirade against the “bigoted” Scalia reveals your inability to distinguish political views properly left to democratic deliberation from legal views proper to constitutional interpretation.

The crux of the problem (as it often is with progressives) is the total & complete ignorance of your opposition’s worldview. Believe me, I’m more than tutored in the varieties of “eternal varieties” of the left. Your obstinacies however a rooted in the kind of bigotry that only a consciously closed mind can produce.

Even Ross's Saint Buckley once threatened to punch a "queer" in the face on NATIONAL TV.

... after said queer, the brilliant but hyper-irritating Gore Vidal, called Buckley a Nazi. Hardly evidence of raging gay-hate, which Buckley's other friendships would seem to make unlikely.