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Roberts and Roe

02 Apr 2008 12:46 pm

Larison on the Chief Justice:

I don’t think that John Roberts sat before the Judiciary Committee and perjured himself when he said that he thought that Roe was the “settled law of the land” and then went on to say, “There’s nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent.” To expect that Roberts is a reliable anti-Roe vote is ultimately to believe him to be a liar, in which case it is not clear why anyone would trust him one way or the other.

I don’t believe that John Roberts is a liar either, but I don’t think his comments – delivered when he was being confirmed to the federal appeals court, not the Supreme Court – in any way preclude his voting to overturn Roe now that he's on the high court. (This is one of those rare occasions when I find myself agreeing with Media Matters.) A federal judge can’t overturn a precedent without more or less guaranteeing that he'll be reversed on appeal, so there’s no reason not to promise to faithfully apply it; a Supreme Court Justice, by contrast, can change long-settled law if he deems it necessary. And Roberts was very circumspect in his confirmation hearings about his opinion of Roe and Casey, going no further than the anodyne statement that Roe is “settled as a precedent of the court.”

The widespread confidence that Roberts will be content to chip away at Roe appears to be based, variously, on his confirmation-hearing comments, on amateur psychologizing about his moderate temperament, and on the assumption that no GOP President would risk his party's fortunes by actually appointing more than a handful of anti-Roe judges to the Supreme Court. My own confidence that he would overturn Roe - or at least revise it beyond recognition - is based on amateur psychologizing as well, in a sense, but I think I have a fair amount of evidence on my side.

At the risk of over-generalizing, I would venture that there are three crucial factors in predicting whether a male Supreme Court Justice would vote to overturn Roe: His judicial philosophy, his religious tradition and how seriously he takes it, and (perhaps most crucially) what his wife thinks about abortion. In Roberts, we have a man who is 1) a judicial conservative, of the sort that would be inclined to treat the penumbras and emanations that create the abortion license with a certain skepticism no matter what; 2) a Roman Catholic who chooses to attend one of the more conservative parishes in the Washington D.C. area; 3) the husband of a similarly-devout Roman Catholic, who serves as legal counsel for Feminists for Life (!); and 4) the father of two adopted children. (The relevance of that last point to a person's sentiments about the abortion debate should not be underestimated.) None of this makes him a certain vote against the Roe-Casey regime, but so far as prognostication goes it's hard to imagine stronger evidence - save a direct statement on the matter - in favor of counting him as such.

Comments (112)

"I would venture that there are three crucial factors in predicting whether a male Supreme Court Justice would vote to overturn Roe: His judicial philosophy, his religious tradition and how seriously he takes it, and (perhaps most crucially) what his wife thinks about abortion"

"Conservatives" crack me up. According to the Conservative mantra on the role of the courts, only "judicial philosophy" should play any role into how Roberts or any other justice decides a case. A judge's religious tradition or the whims of his wife should have no role in how he or she decides cases. Can you imagine an LDS or Muslim judge deciding that polygamy be made legal because their religious traditions make it (or in the case of the LDS judge, once made it) ok? I'm sure that the Christianists in the GOP would be thrilled.

Of course Ross is not arguing that Roberts' religion, or the whims of his wife *should* play a role in his judicial decision-making. Instead, he's recognizing a pretty basic truth in human nature, ie that our surroundings often influence our political (or in this case, judicial) philosophy. Is that so hard to understand?

the father of two adopted children. (The relevance of that last point to a person's sentiments about the abortion debate should not be underestimated.)

Don't paint all adoptive parents with the same brush. I realize that the combination of factors for Roberts does add up in your argument, however I wanted to speak up for adoptive parents. I am incredibly grateful that the birth mother of my child did not elect abortion and that I have been blessed to be able to raise my son however that does not mean that I would not stand up for a woman's right to choose.

Jaime, yes it is hard to understand given the agruments of Conservatives against so-called judicial activism. I suppose you are saying that we put all pretense aside and assume that a judge appointed by a Republican president will and should make decisions based not on the law but on what is politically beneficial to his patrons. While I agree that this happens to some extent, any further migration in that directions will make us a banana republic. We will be a nation not of laws but rather one governed by tryanny of the majority or worse yet the will of the priviledged few.

jamie whines: "Of course Ross is not arguing that Roberts' religion, or the whims of his wife *should* play a role in his judicial decision-making. Instead, he's recognizing a pretty basic truth in human nature, ie that our surroundings often influence our political (or in this case, judicial) philosophy. Is that so hard to understand?"

Of course Ross is saying that Roberts' religion and personal circumstances matter - that's the entire point of his argument, in fact. It's an admission that "strict constructionism" is complete bullshit. Ross is wholly comfortable with the notion that Roe could be overturned by a cabal of right-wing SuperCatholics on the Supreme Court. It's an obvious case of hypocrisy, so don't kid yourself.

ann: Agreed. I'm an adoptive parent myself, and am somewhere in the mushy middle on abortion; I have two adoptive parent friends who are staunch abortion-rights advocates (one volunteers for Planned Parenthood, in fact). However, don't I think Ross's point was that *every* adoptive parent is anti-abortion, but that being an adoptive parent is a somewhat independent variable predictive of a predisposition to be opposed to abortion (independent, that is, of religious conviction).

George Orwell was basically atheistic in his outlook, but he was also sterile, and believed that contraception deformed relations between men and women and that abortion was an abomination. Given his highly idiosyncratic moral and political beliefs, it's hard to know precisely whence he derived his opinions about these topics, but I am not the only one to suspect that his sterility was a highly relevant psychological factor.

I think the same thing is true of some adoptive parents, either because their involvement in adoption makes them more aware of alternatives to abortion, or because of grattitude that their own child was not aborted by his or her birth mother, or (as in Orwell's case) a painful awareness of the preciousness of the gift of fertility. But clearly such conclusions are not universal, and clearly even a predisposition to be personally opposed to abortion wouldn't necessarily imply a pro-life position on the law (though, again, I would expect to see a certain positive correlation between the two views). I've never seen any statistics on whether adoptive parents are more pro-life or not, controlling for religious intensity, so it's possible that Ross's intuition (assuming he hasn't seen such statistics himself) is wrong on this. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's right.

Noah Millman writes: "I think the same thing is true of some adoptive parents, either because their involvement in adoption makes them more aware of alternatives to abortion, or because of grattitude that their own child was not aborted by his or her birth mother, or (as in Orwell's case) a painful awareness of the preciousness of the gift of fertility. But clearly such conclusions are not universal, and clearly even a predisposition to be personally opposed to abortion wouldn't necessarily imply a pro-life position on the law (though, again, I would expect to see a certain positive correlation between the two views). I've never seen any statistics on whether adoptive parents are more pro-life or not, controlling for religious intensity, so it's possible that Ross's intuition (assuming he hasn't seen such statistics himself) is wrong on this. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's right."

Of course there is no shortage of children waiting to be adopted and there never has been, so what such a "right intuition" really might amount to is a selfish wish for more, cheaper, brighter, healthier, younger adoption fodder, if you want to be cynical about it.

And there is no "controlling for religious intensity" on this topic. The lifer movement is almost totally driven by religious sentiment. Though I know non-religious people who are opposed to abortion to one degree or another, I haven't known any who (for instance) took part in picketing/harassing women at clinics. And as far as I know every person involved in actual violence against clinics was one sort of devout wackaloon or another.

TheBannedMoe gets it exactly. Ross is totally right that the personal circumstances that he identifies about Roberts would militate in favor of a conclusion that he might wish to overturn Roe. (Though I could also see him voting to uphold it but apply it narrowly.)

However, Ross' post is also a nice reminder to those conservatives who constantly lecture us on judicial restraint with respect to Roe-- it is certainly quite clear that a lot of religious conservatives latched onto the theory of judicial restraint not because of any commitment to neutral principles but because it gives them the result they want with respect to banning abortion. Conservatives who claim there is one right jurisprudential theory and that everyone who doesn't apply it is simply making up the law should be a bit more humble about what is really going on here.

TBMLAJ: re: selfish wishes: presumably all parents who limited their generosity to their biological offspring and did not adopt at all are even more selfish than those who adopted but didn't seek out a child with a serious medical condition or who was out of infancy. Right? I mean, that does follow logically from your premise.

I have never met anyone, either an adoptive parent or a prospective adoptive parent, who has complained that there aren't "enough" children, or that they could not find "fodder" cheap, bright, healthy or young enough. Have you ever met such a person? If so, I'd like his address so I could punch him in the face.

To give the devil his due, though, I should say that I think Dilan Esper has a point about what TBMLAJ is right about. Ross is making an implicit argument for diversity on the court, since he's admitting that one's background (religious, familial, etc.) has an independent impact on one's judgment in some cases, regardless of professed philosophy. That's not usually the conservative position on these matters.

And no, I did not intend to imply, in that last post, that TBMLAJ is the devil.

Ross,
As you likely know, a common alternative constitutional argument for abortion rights is to base the claim in the 14th Amendment guarantee of equal protection of the laws.

Let me re-phrase-I do not believe that Ross said judges *should* be influenced by religion, family etc.-but rather he recognized that they are. It's the difference between a normative judgment and the recognition of an objective reality.
And even if I am wrong in my interpretation of Ross' post, many, MANY liberals have wanted judges with the personal background to sympathize with the oppressed-so why complain when the shoe is on the other foot?

Noah Millman replies: "I have never met anyone, either an adoptive parent or a prospective adoptive parent, who has complained that there aren't "enough" children, or that they could not find "fodder" cheap, bright, healthy or young enough. Have you ever met such a person? If so, I'd like his address so I could punch him in the face."

Of course I'm referring (somewhat hyperbolically) to the way people behave, Noah, and not to what they say. The undeniable fact that there are plenty of available children who do not get adopted is compelling evidence for the conclusion that a whole lot of shopping is going on in the adoption market, and prospective adoptive parents are not satisfied with the, um, "supply." So I still think that when anyone makes the "more adoptions" argument for ending abortion they're playing to those unsatisfied observers. There's also a reason why the "unsatisfied" portion of the adoption market has been going overseas (and going to greater and greater expense) to try to obtain the "right" sort of "product."

I share your "punch in the face" sentiments but let's not pretend what I'm talking about isn't based in reality.

And I'm not the devil. There is no devil, but if there is, his name is Dick Cheney.

jamie asks: "Let me re-phrase-I do not believe that Ross said judges *should* be influenced by religion, family etc.-but rather he recognized that they are. It's the difference between a normative judgment and the recognition of an objective reality.
And even if I am wrong in my interpretation of Ross' post, many, MANY liberals have wanted judges with the personal background to sympathize with the oppressed-so why complain when the shoe is on the other foot?"

Who is complaining, jamie? I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy, which I realize is invisible to most conservatives. Ross craves extra-judicial influence on this matter - craves it deeply. Which goes to show one more time that the "strict constructionist" model conservatives claim for the courts is the purest sort of bullshit.

What about the fact that once Robert (and Alito) was safely on the Court, he refused to join the Scalia/Thomas concurrence in Gonzales v. Carhart which called for Roe to be overturned? I recently attended a lecture by Scalia in which he repeatedly stated that he and Thomas were the only two originalists serving on the Court, and, in the same lecture made a point of saving that Roe was incompatible with originalism.

This armchair psychologizing about Roberts' personal influences is necessary because prominent Republican politicians don't have the gumption and the leadership to make open arguments against the Roe status quo. They prefer to leave that minefield to the pundits and the legal scholars.

The fact that conservatives are reduced to pop psychology in trying to figure out which way Supreme Court justices wouild vote on Roe vs. Wade is telling in itself... and unfortunately, it strengthens the position of the Kmiecs and the Baceviches.

If you're one of those rare conservatives who's both resolutely against abortion and adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq, AND if those are far and away the two most important issues to you, it makes sense to ask: which of those issues can the next President address most quickly, easily and certainly.

So, for a Bacevich or a Kmiece, there are two questions:

1) How sure am I that President Barack Obama would pull our troops out of Iraq? Answer: pretty darn sure.

2) How sure am I that John McCain's appointees to the Supreme Court would reverse Roe v Wade? Answer: Nobody's sure if he'd appoint anti-abortion judges, nobody's sure if such judges would be confirmed, and nobody's sure they'd really turn out to be anti-abortion once on the bench.

So, IF ending abortion and ending the Iraq war are equally important to someone, it's sad but entirely logical that he'd trust Barack Obama to end the war more than he'd trust McCain to fight abortion.

MANY liberals have wanted judges with the personal background to sympathize with the oppressed-so why complain when the shoe is on the other foot?

Again, what TheBannedMoe said. When nominees are presented for confirmation, conservatives are constantly pretending that their side interprets the law and the other side legislates from the bench. And they pretend that their nominees will put their own beliefs aside and vote based on neutral principles (Bork's phrase) or act as an umpire (Roberts' phrase).

The reality is that these guys are chosen because of their backgrounds, and they choose the judicial philosophy that will lead to the results they like. At most, they will make principled decisions on issues that are more peripheral to them. Scalia, for instance, will apply his principles to oppose substantive due process limitations on punitive damages awards, because he isn't as morally offended by punitive damages as he is by abortion.

What I object to is the picture painted by conservatives regarding judicial nominations. Of course Roberts is informed by his own experience and ideology when deciding cases. How could we possibly ask that he, or any other judge, not be?

Jason, re your equal protection statement. Laws against abortion have nothing to do with equal protection. It's not like men can get abortions and women can't, or whites can get them and blacks can't, or any similar situations.

In fact, it's pretty clear that the equal protection clause had nothing to do with gender or sex discrimination in any way whatsoever.

The only equal protection argument I can see is that certain abortion laws only target the abortionist and not the woman who procures said abortion. I think that there is an equal protection issue there and that to be consistent, abortion laws should equally apply to both the abortionist AND the woman, or whoever else is involved in procurement.

As for Roberts, who knows? My guess is that he'd continue to uphold just about any restriction that comes before the court as not being an "undue buden" without explicitly overturning Casey/Roe and eventually it'll become so hollowed out that overturning it will be a mere formality, which wouldn't even really be necessary.

It also odepends of the makeup of the Court. If McCain wins and replaces say Stevens and Ginsburg with say Frank Easterbrook and a Judge Brown/Judge Sykes so that there's 6 solid conservatives + Kennedy on the bench, I could see Casey being overturned explicitly.

In fact, it's pretty clear that the equal protection clause had nothing to do with gender or sex discrimination in any way whatsoever. The only equal protection argument I can see is that certain abortion laws only target the abortionist and not the woman who procures said abortion. I think that there is an equal protection issue there and that to be consistent, abortion laws should equally apply to both the abortionist AND the woman, or whoever else is involved in procurement.

Now THAT's a strange position. Classifications based on gender aren't subject to constitutional scrutiny at all (so Bradley v. Illinois was correctly decided after all?), but classifications based on the difference between a medical professional and a civilian are not only subject to the equal protection clause but can be struck down as irrational?

You might want to think your position through a little more.

Many people seem to be saying that Ross's post automatically implies conservative hypocrisy. I don't think that necessarily follows. One could just as easily argue that Ross is arguing that Roberts' religious conviction gives him the strength to actually follow his judicial philosophy in the face of scorn from the characters at the NYT, etc. This could be viewed as the difference between Roberts and Kennedy, who is often accused of abandoning conservative causes in favor of popularity. I don't necessarily subscribe, but I think it is just as credible.

This is one of the defining issues of American politics over the past few decades. It drives countless single-issue voters, and plenty more like Ross himself who are disillusioned with one of the parties but unwilling to defect because of abortion. And yet ever since the Bork nomination blew up in their faces, the entire campaign to overturn Roe has been couched in hints, euphemisms, dog whistles, divination, and demographic profiling.

It's a disgrace.

This is one of the defining issues of American politics over the past few decades. It drives countless single-issue voters, and plenty more like Ross himself who are disillusioned with one of the parties but unwilling to defect because of abortion. And yet ever since the Bork nomination blew up in their faces, the entire campaign to overturn Roe has been couched in hints, euphemisms, dog whistles, divination, and demographic profiling.

Ah, but isn't that the inevitable result of judicializing the issue in the first place? A judge just can't promise to overturn a precedent, but nonetheless precedents are overturned. And everyone thinks sometimes that's a good thing.

Personally, given Carhart #2, I suspect Roberts will go the same way as Rehnquist. Abortion will continue to be a protected right, but there will be reduced scrutiny for legislated limits.

"In Roberts, we have a man who is 1) a judicial conservative, of the sort that would be inclined to treat the penumbras and emanations that create the abortion license with a certain skepticism no matter what..."

And how would he distinguish those penumbras and emanations from the ones in Griswold, which clearly is settled law? Let's try a hypothetical. Suppose in 2100 the people in, oh, North Dakota all get swept up into a strange cult religion, which we'll call Ooga Boogaism. And Ooga Boogaism says that you shouldn't alter your body for any reason, you should leave it the way Ooga Booga - their god - gave it to you. So they pass some laws banning, among other things, plastic surgery and surgical removal of benign growths. If you have a goiter, a benign tumor, a polyp, you can't take it out - or off. Are you seriously telling me that this legislation wouldn't violate some sort of right to bodily autonomy that's in the Constitution? (Putting aside the establishment issue. We could assume that the good secular humanists of North Dakota decide one day that the body should never be surgically altered instead.) Now, if it does violate some kind of implicit constitutional right, how would you distinguish these laws from abortion bans as far as rights go? I believe that Roe was wrongly decided because I think fetal life is a compelling state interest, but I think there is a right on which abortion bans infringe.

Asher, I hope for their sake that you never have children, lest they be treated as "goiters, polyps, and tumors"!!

Thanks, Ross-- for a moment there, I felt panic-stricken about Roberts' views on Roe but then I got to the part about his wife being a member of Feminists for Life and all was right with the world again :)

Someone made the point about views on abortion being tied to religion-- that doesn't have to be the case, and really shouldn't be, but history does bear out the flip side of this argument, that atheists are more likely than believers to de-value life (think Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, to pick one century).

MD, that's not the point. People have a right to do what they like with their body (within certain health-related limits), but if the thing they're trying to surgically remove from their body is a life worth protecting of its own, there's a compelling state interest in protecting that life which overrides the right to bodily autonomy. In my view. The fact that it's a life justifies abrogating the right, but it doesn't render the right nonexistent.

I'm merely pointing out hypocrisy, which I realize is invisible to most conservatives. Ross craves extra-judicial influence on this matter - craves it deeply. Which goes to show one more time that the "strict constructionist" model conservatives claim for the courts is the purest sort of bullshit.

BannedMoe: You've needlessly worked yourself into a lather over this post. I've never heard a conservative say that it is very likely that any human being appointed to a court will objectively follow his judicial philosophy with perfection. It is entirely consistent to believe that this or that conservative judicial philosophy is desirable, and that inevitably (humans being mighty imperfect creatures!) such philosophy will be employed by a human being overwhelmingly likely to be influenced (even at the subconscious level) by his passions, desires, biases, and umpteen million additional nefarious influences. Conservatives, after all, are skeptics when it comes to the perfectibility of human beings.

Many people seem to be saying that Ross's post automatically implies conservative hypocrisy. I don't think that necessarily follows. One could just as easily argue that Ross is arguing that Roberts' religious conviction gives him the strength to actually follow his judicial philosophy in the face of scorn from the characters at the NYT, etc.

You could argue that, but not easily. It's a big stretch, when the more natural conclusion is that Roberts et al. chose that judicial philosophy because it is inconsistent with Roe.

Personally, given Carhart #2, I suspect Roberts will go the same way as Rehnquist. Abortion will continue to be a protected right, but there will be reduced scrutiny for legislated limits.

Rehnquist never went that way. He dissented in Casey and said that Roe should be overturned, and never retracted that position.

I've never heard a conservative say that it is very likely that any human being appointed to a court will objectively follow his judicial philosophy with perfection.

You may know better, but I have heard plenty of conservatives who think Scalia and Thomas are consistent originalists and textualists.

Even under Roe, the state has a great deal of power to regulate abortion in the last 3 months of pregnancy, but the pro-life/coerced pregnancy movement has show little interest in such regulation. The agenda here is not the fetus, which as soon as it is born is of little interest to conservatives (he or she certainly has no claim on their tax dollars no matter how burdensome it will for the woman coerced into taking the risks to her health on bringing the child to term and then to raise it to adulthood), but rather to discourage sexual liberty of women and encourage their dependence on staying in the good graces of a man by emphasizing the catastrophic consequences of sex outside a relationship where she will be supported by a man, no matter how abusive that man might be.

a Supreme Court Justice, by contrast, can change long-settled law if he deems it necessary

Aaah, strict constructionist ideology at it's best. Never mind all the hooplah about legislating from the bench, if it's what you want it to be, it's all good, let's have judges change the law. Fabulous.

banned3Stooges - Of course there is no shortage of children waiting to be adopted and there never has been

Bullcrap. There is a shortage of physically and mentally healthy and quality adoptees of East Asian and European stock. Has been for a long time.
That there are minorities and people with great mental and physical disabilities "spare" does not do away with the desire of most families to have a healthy and promising adopted child with a future that looks like them or acts like them. It is natural human instinct and while there is flexibility in that some white or Asian families will go outside race...It's like going to an animal shelter to do an adoption hoping for a promising young labrador puppy and being told the only dogs available are great danes, retarded dogs, violent dogs shuffled over a decade between foster homes, and dogs with profound medical needs..

****************

Roe remains the showcase example of vast judicial arrogance and over reach. Even if you don't care about abortion as a big issue personally, you can favor it being overturned and sent to State Legislatures on the simple fact that in no other democracy did the Courts usurp the role of the People. From East Asia to Europe, excepting only Communist states and basic dictatorships like in Arab lands and Latin America - abortion law was created with the advice and consent of the People.
Worse, the usurpation was done in the US WHILE state legislatures were making considerable progress enacting liberalized abortion laws.

And knowledge of this has been the cancer that has poisoned US politics and judicial nominations for 35 years.

In Europe and in other democracies, the populations all passed laws LESS LIBERAL about partial birth abortion, late-term abortion at the whim of the mother. All require a minor to have parental consent or court consent if parents refuse. The vast majority require the woman wishing abortion take counseling on alternatives like adoption, and learn first what state resources are available to help the woman carry to term and not disrupt her career or education that the woman may not know about. They maintain neutrality in counseling so it is not feminists paid by the abortion referral by for-profit centers, nor Fundie counselors saying they will roast in hell if they "murder". 12 weeks is the normal cutoff.

shillyshally writes: "It is entirely consistent to believe that this or that conservative judicial philosophy is desirable, and that inevitably (humans being mighty imperfect creatures!) such philosophy will be employed by a human being overwhelmingly likely to be influenced (even at the subconscious level) by his passions, desires, biases, and umpteen million additional nefarious influences. Conservatives, after all, are skeptics when it comes to the perfectibility of human beings."

Who expects "perfection," chuckles? I'm just saying the claim that "strict constructionism" guides assclowns like Thomas and Scalia is pure bullshit. They're party hacks, pure and simple. The notion of what it means to be a "strict constructionist" isn't based on what the Founding Fathers wanted - it's based on what movement conservatives wanted when they started the Federalist Society.

That's why you never heard a peep out of the Federalists when Bush v. Gore was accepted by the Supreme Court. These people have no genuine principles except for their desire for power.

chris ford says: "Bullcrap. There is a shortage of physically and mentally healthy and quality adoptees of East Asian and European stock. Has been for a long time.
That there are minorities and people with great mental and physical disabilities "spare" does not do away with the desire of most families to have a healthy and promising adopted child with a future that looks like them or acts like them. It is natural human instinct and while there is flexibility in that some white or Asian families will go outside race...It's like going to an animal shelter to do an adoption hoping for a promising young labrador puppy and being told the only dogs available are great danes, retarded dogs, violent dogs shuffled over a decade between foster homes, and dogs with profound medical needs.."

Thanks for making my point for me in your usual Krazy Klan Klaven way, chris.

I would also like to take this opportunity to tell your parents that I'm sorry they were stuck with a retarded, violent son. They should have adopted instead.

"You could argue that, but not easily. It's a big stretch, when the more natural conclusion is that Roberts et al. chose that judicial philosophy because it is inconsistent with Roe."

Isn't this just basically saying that the more natural conclusion is the one that confirms your beliefs that you stated at the beginning? I don't see anything else supporting your assertion above. I've never particularly had a dog in this fight, but I think the logic that is being followed here is basically - conservative has a point of view, there is an argument that this could be hypocritical, person is conservative, therefore person's point of view is by default hypocritical. I'm sure that is some sort of logical fallacy, but I've never been one for logic. Thankfully I am not alone on this thread in that regard.

I admit it is it interesting to read people speak about killing unborn children with such "matter of factness" as if the whole subject is just a bit tedious but required because of all those damnable conservatives.
And then MD mentioned the obvious. And in a few posts we saw that religion and even being conservative has little to do with acknowledging the fact that the unborn child is a person is a human being and therefore a person.
Now on to the issue before us:
Roberts is a brilliant mind and an excellent constitutional jurist. therefore he will not find a "right" to abortion in the constitution because there is no such right. As for Roe and Casey, when there are enough justices to overrule them, it will be done. How it will be done remains to be seen. but if he actually revisits the central question in Roe, the court may be required to arrive at a different conclusion due to the amazing advances in medicine.
You may recall that Blackmun stated that if the "fetus" was a person, that the Appellant's (Roe's) argument would fail. The development of the 4d ultrasound shows us a window into the womb. We can see the unborn baby. so then it raises the suggestion by Jason - what about the 14th Amendment? Well the 14th amendment applies the right to life and due process and equal protection to the states.

It is after all a simple argument. The law does not permit us to kill people without due process. The unborn child must be its genus and species be included in the group human beings. Human beings are persons. One cannot kill persons without due process of law. The state therefore will have to protect unborn children to some degree in order to not act in violation of the constitution.


now I know this may bother some people who wish to claim that this is only a position held be conservative thinkers. George Orwell was not conservative. Nat Hentoff is not conservative. Protecting innocent people is neither a liberal nor a conservative position. It is merely the correct moral position at all times.

Re: John Jakubczyk's ost at 4:09 -

It must be incredibly easy to pass the bar exam in Arizona.

Moe, being an idiot and an ass, as so often:

in fact. It's an admission that "strict constructionism" is complete bullshit.

Dilan, more reasonably stating a similar point:

Conservatives who claim there is one right jurisprudential theory and that everyone who doesn't apply it is simply making up the law should be a bit more humble about what is really going on here.

Er, no. Simply, no. There's nothing that argues against the idea that there is, in fact, one just and sane way to apply judicial review at the Supreme Court level in this line of thought. As an experiment, Dilan, you might consider that some of us believe that there is one absolute morality of whether it is right to, say, cheat on your wife. But, in fact, we don't just take a person's views on this into account when we are trying to _estimate what they will actually do_ -- we include a number of other factors, such as the opinions of friends who influence this person, how their marriage is going, whether the person in question has bad impulse control, etc. This doesn't really require any humility about the idea that adultery is wrong -- it just suggests that we are sane, and capable of analyzing actual human beings. That Scalia and Thomas, who are as originalist as the current Court gets, sometimes nod is not surprising -- so did Homer. That they nod most when it's personally tempting is also not surprising. Part of the value of the conservative approach is that it at least makes the temptation, present in most every man and woman, to make one's on views the guidepost and God of all men, a little easier to resist. The cases where Ginsburg rules against her political inclinations, sympathies, and well, her feelings, are considerably rarer, when there is even the remotest absurd "living constitution" pretext for doing otherwise.

TMoC, being a dishonest ass and an idiot, writes: "As an experiment, Dilan, you might consider that some of us believe that there is one absolute morality of whether it is right to, say, cheat on your wife. But, in fact, we don't just take a person's views on this into account when we are trying to _estimate what they will actually do_ -- we include a number of other factors, such as the opinions of friends who influence this person, how their marriage is going, whether the person in question has bad impulse control, etc. This doesn't really require any humility about the idea that adultery is wrong -- it just suggests that we are sane, and capable of analyzing actual human beings. That Scalia and Thomas, who are as originalist as the current Court gets, sometimes nod is not surprising -- so did Homer. That they nod most when it's personally tempting is also not surprising. Part of the value of the conservative approach is that it at least makes the temptation, present in most every man and woman, to make one's on views the guidepost and God of all men, a little easier to resist. The cases where Ginsburg rules against her political inclinations, sympathies, and well, her feelings, are considerably rarer, when there is even the remotest absurd "living constitution" pretext for doing otherwise."

You've broken your own indoor stupidity record here, TMoC. You conservatives love to cloak yourselves in the loincloth of your sky fairy and pretend that you and only represent absolute and true morality. You extend this when pushing this "strict constructionist" BULLSHIT to claiming that you and only you follow the path the Founding Fathers began. It's certifiably nuts to claim that the founders were all in lockstep on process, of course. Pretending there's no ambiguity in a human document and that all matters can be decided AS THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN over 200 years ago isn't just wrong, it's childish and stupid.

I realize that at your core folks like you and Hector have no respect for constitutional democracy, but you could at least try to understand how it works. You don't even try. You retreat to an absolutist position because it's easy and because others have done all the work for you.

Do you even know what the Federalist Society is, or what kind of effect it has had on your own thinking, even if that effect has been incorrect? I'll say it again. The Federalist Society isn't an honest engine of philosophy - it's an ends-based group, a sort of think tank devoted to achieving right-wing ends not because they're constitutionally-based but because they're right-wing ends.

This is why you never - EVER - see the Federalist Society take a position or work towards anything that might offend the right. Unlike the ACLU, the Federalist gang doesn't give a sweet fucking damn about rights. It just cares about the right.

Jam that in your absolutist pipe and smoke it.

As for the morality of cheating on your wife, when will the Family Values gang mention that John McCain was a serial adulterer and that Cindy McCain, prospective First Lady, was a lowlife homewrecking whore who cheated with Mr. Straight Talk while he was married to his first wife? I know the answer is "never," but can your absolutist self tell me why that's so? If a prospective Democratic candidate and his wife had the same history we'd never hear the end of it.

Isn't this just basically saying that the more natural conclusion is the one that confirms your beliefs that you stated at the beginning? I don't see anything else supporting your assertion above.

There's plenty of evidence for it, in that there are very few people going around asserting that they personally favor banning abortions but feel that Roe was correctly decided. Further, there's also evidence for it in the fact that most of the anti-Roe advocates of orginalism and textualism are inconsistent about applying it in other areas where the results don't match up with their personal preferences.

Well the 14th amendment applies the right to life and due process and equal protection to the states.

Not even Scalia or Bork believes that the Fourteenth Amendment compels a ban on abortion, because the 14th Amendment contains a state action requirement. In other words, if some private person, with no help from the state, kills you, or falsely imprisons you, or steals your property, those may be crimes, but they aren't violations of the Constitution. And states aren't required to criminalize even murder in all instances; think about such things as insanity defenses, self-defense doctrine, etc.

Even if we assume the fetus is a "person" under the 14th Amendment, that would, at the most, prohibit state governments from performing themselves.

Part of the value of the conservative approach is that it at least makes the temptation, present in most every man and woman, to make one's on views the guidepost and God of all men, a little easier to resist. The cases where Ginsburg rules against her political inclinations, sympathies, and well, her feelings, are considerably rarer, when there is even the remotest absurd "living constitution" pretext for doing otherwise.

Marquis, singling out Ginsburg shows your lack of credibility. I know she was an ACLU lawyer (which apparently convicts her among conservative talk radio hosts), but she is simply not this big leftist as conservative talk radio portrays her. You should read her work-- you will find, fascinatingly, that she relies on text, history, context, original meaning, and precedent, just like Scalia does. Heck, they even like each other, and Bork, who worked with her on the DC Circuit, said she was always extremely concerned about ensuring the cases came out consistent with the law.

William O. Douglas was a left-wing Supreme Court justice. Ruth Ginsburg is not. And you might want to learn a little more about this subject matter before popping off about her again.

In any event, your premise, that judicial conservativism makes one less likely to insert one's personal beliefs into the jurisprudence, is demonstrably wrong. To pick an obvious example, Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas was ALL ABOUT HIS PERSONAL HATRED OF GAYS. Indeed, Thomas was so disgusted by it that he didn't sign it and entered a separate dissenting opinion where he said that no, in fact, sodomy laws were stupid.

Similarly, Scalia's personal beliefs are all over his approach to war on terror cases, the pledge of allegiance, Bush v. Gore, the 11th Amendment and state sovereignty, etc.

All these guys bring their personal beliefs to the table. This whole debate is about nothing more than egotistical conservatives who like to tell themselves that their contested philosophical beliefs are in fact self evident and dictated by a supreme being. A truly smart person, unlike Scalia, knows that he or she is not that smart.

Dilan

So I'm reading along all fine & well concerning your understanding of Ginsburg’s jurisprudence when all of a sudden I encounter this.

“To pick an obvious example, Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas was ALL ABOUT HIS PERSONAL HATRED OF GAYS. Indeed, Thomas was so disgusted by it that he didn't sign it and entered a separate dissenting opinion where he said that no, in fact, sodomy laws were stupid.”

(Bold emphasis mine)

Now you seemed to be implying that you had textured, nuanced & sophisticated understanding of the law.

But then you pull this out of nowhere. A less compelling or substantiated bold faced accusation would be hard to make. (& then you throw theism in as the culprit)

So my question to you is – Care to elaborate?

Fitz:

Scalia's long dissent was the principal dissent in Lawrence. In it, he thundered about the rationality of laws banning homosexual conduct on the ground that it was immoral. Thomas wrote a short dissent that said he thought this was an uncommonly silly law, and that if he were a member of the Texas legislature, he would vote to repeal it, but that he didn't think it was unconstitutional.

That's not an opinion one bothers to write if the principal dissent's vociferous defense of the wisdom as well as the constitutionality of sodomy laws rreflects one's own views.

Dilan,

I have no particular fondness for Scalia, but it's absurd to say he hates homosexuals. He believes, like most people throughout history, that homosexual intercourse is immoral. Not the same thing.

As an analogy, I do want to adulterers them punished by the force of law, probably with fines and such. Does that mean I hate adulterers? Certainly not.

Scalia, while I disagree with him, actually raised a powerful and troubling point. Unless the defenders of homosexuality can offer a convincing reason that we can continue to condemn adultery, concensual incest, wife-swapping, bestiality, and polygamy while also legitimizing homosexuality, then the path forward is fraught with danger. Now there may well be such a reason that these actions can continue to be condemned while homosexuality is tolerated. However the people like Dilan, as far as I know, are not making that case. Nor are they making a case for why St. Paul and St. Jude, as well as Plato, were wrong when they condemned homosexuality. That case can also be made, presumably, but I wish more people would make it instead of making silly arguments about a nonexistent right to privacy.

NB: I am not arguing that homosexual acts should be illegal. I don't think they should be. But I do think we need more careful reasoning about sexual morality as well as other forms of morality. Else we wind up giving away the store to the devotees of polygamy, incest, bestiality and swinging.

Dilan,

I stand by my point about Ginsburg. I didn't say she's a monster (I know that she's by all reports a nice woman, and a formidable intellect) -- but I think the cases where she rules against her inclinations and _there is some pretext under her philosophy for doing so_ are considerably rarer than the cases where Scalia or Thomas do so. That's obviously a judgment, but I don't think it's a false one. And yes, I'll agree that she's more consistent and less egregious than Douglas or some others I can think of -- I imagine she'd have written a Roe that held together a little better.

There's plenty of evidence for it, in that there are very few people going around asserting that they personally favor banning abortions but feel that Roe was correctly decided.

Er -- maybe. Or it's evidence that Roe is such a tissue of nonsense that nobody who doesn't have a personal interest in upping the number of dead fetuses can possibly manage to swallow it. In other words, it's good evidence that Roe is terrible, and for little else.

I realize that at your core folks like you and Hector have no respect for constitutional democracy, but you could at least try to understand how it works. You don't even try. You retreat to an absolutist position because it's easy and because others have done all the work for you.

I'll ignore Moe's silliness about "knowing what the Federalist Society is" and aim at this. Actually, I'm not sure Hector even claims to be much of a fan of constitutional democracy, per se, so I'll let him handle that. I don't worship it, but it's a pretty good form of government, as they go. I think that moderate "originalism" (which doesn't proclaim infallible knowledge of intent, if you've read much on the subject -- certainly, say, Bork makes no such absurd claims) is much more respectful of both constitution and democracy than the positions I suspect you, Moe, tend towards. You tend to dislike the Constitution when it doesn't agree with your notions of justice, and you certainly don't mind un-democratic resolution of social controversy, as with abortion. Meanwhile, neither Scalia nor I claims that our preferred option, abortion as illegal, is enshrined in the Constitution, in secret decoder ring form. Indeed, Scalia wrote a rather scathing article here and there arguing against that (fairly silly) proposition, put forth by some conservatives. The Constitution is not a magic machine for enshrining all "right" views. Liberals and conservatives sometimes act as if this isn't true, of course, but I think really it is essentially more of a liberal problem (peculiar , in a certain sense, given the heritage of devotion to procedure and method over substance and virtue that also informs strains of modern liberalism).

Marquis,

How do _you_ think that someone who is with the Republicans on abortion, but with the Democrats on, say, most issues of foreign policy, economics and the environment, ought to vote?

Do you think it's the case that abortion is the most definitive and substantial difference between the parties these days? It's true that there are a fair number of pro-life Democratic congressmen (including from Boston and Providence, those liberal meccas). But the party essentially will never let people like that rise to the top, certainly not to the presidential nomination.

Assuredly I'm not voting for McCain. I suppose I would be OK with voting for Hillary. But Obama isn't even the 'safe, legal and rare' type of Democrat-- he supported a particularly nasty bit of legislation about born-alive infants.

Voting third-party or write in is looking more attractive by the day.

Hector writes: "I have no particular fondness for Scalia, but it's absurd to say he hates homosexuals. He believes, like most people throughout history, that homosexual intercourse is immoral. Not the same thing.

As an analogy, I do want to adulterers them punished by the force of law, probably with fines and such. Does that mean I hate adulterers? Certainly not.

Scalia, while I disagree with him, actually raised a powerful and troubling point. Unless the defenders of homosexuality can offer a convincing reason that we can continue to condemn adultery, concensual incest, wife-swapping, bestiality, and polygamy while also legitimizing homosexuality, then the path forward is fraught with danger."

Hector, how the hell do you know that Scalia doesn't hate homosexuals? His demeanor when the subject comes up suggests his strong distaste for it, his inability to deal with the entire notion. For a man of his age and background to hate homosexuals would be far from unusual - it would probably even be usual. Even Ross's Saint Buckley once threatened to punch a "queer" in the face on NATIONAL TV. There would be nothing surprising about Scalia being a homo-hater - nothing at all.

The rest of your comment makes me think you should go sodomize a dead fetus, because you're clearly crazy and malignant enough to do so. People who compare consensual sexual relations between adults to bestiality and incest are contemptible morons.

I'm damn glad I'm not related to you, Hector. At your age there's simply no excuse for being such a retrograde bigoted dumbass.

Moe,

I didn't compare homosexual acts to beastiality and incest. I said that if consent is the only basis on which we are to deem a sexual act right or wrong, then we no longer have any grounds to say that (consensual) incest or bestiality or for that matter polygamy or adultery is wrong. That, I stand by.

One can make other arguments for why homosexuality ought to be tolerated but incest should not. Actually, it would be helpful if you guys would make such arguments instead of blithering about consenting adults and the right to privacy.

Dilan

You know not of what you speak.

You attempt to use Thomas to refute Scalia; the truth of the matter is that Thomas joined Scalia’s dissent and his short & elegant critique was 100X more scathing of the majority opinion than Scalia’s.

Thomas reference to “uncommonly silly" is a direct quote from the Griswold v. Connecticut dissent of Stewart. That opinion is infamous for it's proven inability to predict the consequences of judicial action on our social fabric. It is infamous for being the foundation of the privacy rights articulated later in Roe & invalidating birth control regulations that directly led to the separation of sex & procreation (that in turn) led to the sexual revolution and all its attendant consequences. It is also infamous because neither the majority opinion or the dissent ever raise the public policy objections that artificial birth control bans were traditionally based in (i.e. – family breakdown)

Now – Obviously Thomas is aware of this. As such he is taking a slightly veiled yet scathing swipe at the majority all the more damaging due to its subtle nature.

He is saying: that- like Griswold, the majority opinion in Lawrence will lead to the same pernicious and debilitating ramifications both legally & culturally as Griswold did.

Now – as a non-lawyer I can’t expect you to understand the finer points of legal precedent. Nevertheless, coming after a call for greater sensitivity to the views of Ginsburg, your misunderstanding is particularly crude.

Read in its proper context – Thomas’s brilliantly short dissent in Lawrence should go down in history as one of the most succinct and effective concurring dissent in legal history.

While you may have missed it’s true meaning: Rest assured, legal minds and Thomas’s fellow Jurors could not help but to understand the powerful and prophetic critique it is.

TMoC "replies": "I'll ignore Moe's silliness about "knowing what the Federalist Society is" and aim at this."

Of course you'll ignore it, because you have no honest answer for it. You cons like to pretend the Federalist Society is a group of high-minded academics out to reclaim the sanctity of the original Constitution, when what it really is is a politically-motivated hatchet group. That's how it functions, that's what it does.

"You tend to dislike the Constitution when it doesn't agree with your notions of justice, and you certainly don't mind un-democratic resolution of social controversy, as with abortion. "

This is truly dimwitted. I don't "dislike the Constitution," in whole or in part. And of course I don't mind it when a decision goes my way - even if the reasoning is debatable. But then you don't, either, since I'm quite sure you were thrilled with Bush v. Gore.

Is Roe debatable? Of course it is! So fucking what, chuckles, deal with it. The Constitution provides ways of dealing with it, so deal. I don't know how many times I have to say that I welcome Roe being overturned, in a way, because it will ramp up the Culture War and you dinosaurs will get your leathery asses kicked. There are hundreds of thousands of women who will get involved seriously if it happens, and they'll easily dispatch rosary-clenching wanna-be Jesuits like Fitz and Co.

"Liberals and conservatives sometimes act as if this isn't true, of course, but I think really it is essentially more of a liberal problem (peculiar , in a certain sense, given the heritage of devotion to procedure and method over substance and virtue that also informs strains of modern liberalism)."

Virtue? Oh, you mean Dumbya Bush praying to Stickboy before he orders torture... got it. Yeah, that's a very impressive record of virtue you cons have.

As for "procedure and method" - it's a con/Federalist Society gem of jurisprudence that sees nothing wrong with denying appeals by condemned men based on innocence if the appeal isn't made in a timely fashion. But I guess that's the sort of restraint a virtuous guy like you admires.

Some of you may want to actually read the Opinion


"Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means. Social perceptions of sexual and other morality change over time, and every group has the right to persuade its fellow citizens that its view of such matters is the best. That homosexuals have achieved some success in that enterprise is attested to by the fact that Texas is one of the few remaining States that criminalize private, consensual homosexual acts. But persuading one's fellow citizens is one thing, and imposing one's views in absence of democratic majority will is something else. I would no more require a State to criminalize homosexual acts--or, for that matter, display any moral disapprobation of them--than I would forbid it to do so."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=02-102#opinion1

Fitz says: "Now – Obviously Thomas is aware of this. As such he is taking a slightly veiled yet scathing swipe at the majority all the more damaging due to its subtle nature.

He is saying: that- like Griswold, the majority opinion in Lawrence will lead to the same pernicious and debilitating ramifications both legally & culturally as Griswold did. "

Here's what's really behind the lunacy of the cons on these issues. The lie that they're upset about the "legal reasoning" in the decisions is - again - pure bullshit. It's bullshit so pure that it boggles the mind.

What they REALLY are incensed about is the fact that the highest court in the land dismisses their religiously-based fantasies as crap unworthy of polluting our legal structure. Laws against condoms or birth control? The Supreme Court says they're silly. Laws against interracial marriage? The Supreme Court says they're malignantly stupid. Laws against homosexual activity? The Supreme Court wonders why any sane person would think those were a good idea. You think the fetus is a person? The Supreme Court sees nothing in the Constitution that says so, and quite rightly - nothing in there even SUGGESTS that a fetus is a person, and our culture hasn't traditionally said it was, so deal with it, thumpers!

The "pernicious and debilitating ramifications" are all in your heads, thumpers! You hate us for our freedoms. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one! Don't wanna gobble a crank? Don't gobble one! Don't wanna use a condom? Pay child support and get syphilis, you idiot!

It's 2008. Grow up.

I like how Fitz quotes Scalia's slightly couched reference to the "homosexual agenda" (and please don't tell me that's not a purposeful sign to the yahoos) and fakes obliviousness to the fact that "homosexual agenda" is a favored phrase of every right-wing nutjob in the country.

It's really no wonder that Fitz has had trouble deciding whether to join the Jesuits. But I hear they have stringent screening these days...

I have no particular fondness for Scalia, but it's absurd to say he hates homosexuals. He believes, like most people throughout history, that homosexual intercourse is immoral. Not the same thing.

No Hector, he believes that laws that put gays in JAIL are appropriate assertions of morality. That's bigotry. Period.

As an analogy, I do want to adulterers them punished by the force of law, probably with fines and such. Does that mean I hate adulterers? Certainly not.

Bad analogy. Gays are a historically unfairly oppressed and persecuted group, like blacks, jews, and women. Comparing gays to people who cheat on their wives is offensive.

I stand by my point about Ginsburg. I didn't say she's a monster (I know that she's by all reports a nice woman, and a formidable intellect) -- but I think the cases where she rules against her inclinations and _there is some pretext under her philosophy for doing so_ are considerably rarer than the cases where Scalia or Thomas do so. That's obviously a judgment, but I don't think it's a false one.

Marquis, you have cited no cases to support this claim. I read every Supreme Court opinion. Trust me, there isn't a basis for this conclusion. Ginsburg, for instance, voted to restrict punitive damages awards under due process restrictions. She has voted for the business position in many business cases, such as authoring the opinion upholding copyright term extension. She votes with the "conservatives" all the time. She's not even the most liberal member of the Court (Stevens is).

You need to read primary sources and stop relying on conservative media. They have apparently been defaming Ruth Ginsburg for years, and conservatives have been believing it.

Fitz:

Your view of what Thomas' concurrence means is, shall we say, ideosyncratic. Among just about everyone in the legal community, it was seen as a HUGE diss of Scalia, who certainly did NOT think that the law in Griswold OR the law in Lawrence was silly.

Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means.

Fitz, you are reading this statement completely wrong. He's just saying he has nothing against gays participating in the political process. In that same opinion, he compares gays to those who practice bestiality and pedophilia, and says that governments which throw gays in jail are acting perfectly rationally and that the state interest in throwing gays in jail is legitimate. He also endorses traditional moral condemnations of gays. And he does that in hateful, vociferous language. It's an ugly document that only a bigot would endorse.

Uh, Dilan, I consider your whole world view offensive, so if you didn't find me offensive, I would think there was something wrong.

Whether homosexuals were 'unfairly' oppressed and persecuted depends entirely on your view of the moral status of homosexuality. If it's a serious moral crime, then the societies of the Middle Ages were right to 'persecute' and 'oppress' homosexuals. Much like the medieval treatment of witches. We don't believe in witches today, so we think they were unfairly put to death. But if we thought that there were actually people who were actually using the Infernal Powers, then it would be appropriate and right to have executed them without mercy. As for the Jews, they were certainly oppressed at some times, and not so much at other times, during the Middle Ages. The _racial_ anti-Semitism that Nazi Germany exemplified was a distinctly modern phenomenon, born of perverted 'science' (or rather, scientism) and not of religion.

Now I believe the case can be made why homosexuality is innate and therefore, at least subjectively, not a serious moral offence in the way that, say, adultery or incest is. I believe that argument myself, to a certain degree. But you need to make that case, and you also need to make the case why St. Paul and St. Jude were wrong when they explicitly condemned sodomy. It would help your case if instead of throwing around silly accusations of bigotry, you would carefully consider and think about the arguments against homosexuality and then try to refute them.

Scalia's dissent, whether or not you agree with him, was certainly a maasterpiece of reasoning, compelling and troubling, couched in brilliant rhetoric. I believe the man has no personal animus towards gays. One does not have to agree with him to worry about a future in which adultery, bestiality, polygamy, wife-swapping, and incest can no longer be the object of condemnation and legal sanction. I think, Dilan, you would be well advised not to imagine everyone who disagree with you is a bigot. That's not very 'liberal' of you, you know. Scalia is quite obviously smarter than most of the other people on the court, and I say this as a man o the Left.

NB: I am not saying that the medievals were _right_ to persecute homosexuals, but I am saying that there's more room for disagreement about how a state ought to deal with homosexuality, than there is about racism.

Whether homosexuals were 'unfairly' oppressed and persecuted depends entirely on your view of the moral status of homosexuality.

No, Hector, it doesn't. Gays have been beaten up and killed for generations. They have been fired from their jobs and evicted from their apartments. They have been rousted by the police. They have been forced into the closet.

I understand in theory one can have a moral objection to homosexuality while opposing gay bashing and discrimination against gays and lesbians. In practice, though, most of the "moral" opposition to homosexuality crowd is like you, justifying the persecution of gays and lesbians through phony moral reasoning (which is stupid as well, it basically comes down to "2000 years ago, ignorant people said that my hallucinated imaginary friend didn't want men to put their penises into other men, so therefore it is immoral")

The truth is, moral opposition to homosexuality is in most instances a cover for bigotry.

As for Scalia, far from brilliant, his dissent in Lawrence was a screed about how unless the state retains the right to throw gays in jail, our entire moral foundation will crumble. And yes, only a man who truly hates gays and lesbians with every fiber of his being would ever write such a thing.

Hector writes: "Whether homosexuals were 'unfairly' oppressed and persecuted depends entirely on your view of the moral status of homosexuality. If it's a serious moral crime, then the societies of the Middle Ages were right to 'persecute' and 'oppress' homosexuals."

In your own small and intellectually immature way you're even more contemptible than the craziest, most extreme right-wingers who post here, Hector. You're young and you're well-educated, and you really have no excuses for writing this sort of revolting horseshit.

You're going to go one of two ways, I think. You'll either become a genuine human being or you'll move so far to the right that you won't recognize yourself. But you will change, because what you are now is an unstable bundle of confusion.

Good luck.

Dilan,

Don't you see that you prove Scalia's point every time you argue that wife-swapping, pornography, etc. ought to be tolerated? (I'm pretty sure you _have_ made such arguments before.)

It is a fact that in the aftermath of Lawrence v. Texas, adultery laws in some states have been struck down. Does this not prove Scalia's point?

Here's a simple question for you. Do you think that adultery, consensual incest (say brother-sister), polygamy, prostitution, pornography, and incest ought to be against the law. Assume that no force or coercion is involved. If your answer is 'yes', then why? If you can give me a convincing argument why full acceptance of homosexuality does not imply acceptance of these other things, then I will concede your point.

I think such an argument can be made (how logically strong it is remains to be proven). But you haven't made it and as long as you invoke 'consent' alone, Scalia's point stands.

Dilan

"Your view of what Thomas' concurrence means is, shall we say, ideosyncratic. Among just about everyone in the legal community, it was seen as a HUGE diss of Scalia, who certainly did NOT think that the law in Griswold OR the law in Lawrence was silly."

You know nothing of the law, legal philosophy or the personalities or philosophies involved in jurisprudence.

Yours is a just-so-story, post-hoc rationalization of your ignorance on the subject. You have no idea what "just about everyone in the legal community" thinks about anything.

What is germane is what Thomas and other constructionists with natural law philosophies understand the constitution to permit.

The legal community do know this strain of legal thought and understand that Thomas quoting Stewart's “uncommonly silly" language from his dissent in a case as important and foundational to the sexual autonomy agenda grounded in Griswold v. Connecticut is anything but "coincidental".

Your insistence on the bigotry of Scalia reveals your mistake. If Thomas though moral prohibitions on homosexuality were bigoted or even "silly" why would he predicate his hypothetical opposition to them on the basis of allotment of finite “law enforcement resources." rather than a direct appeal to the liberty interests and humanity of homosexuals?

If I were a member of the Texas Legislature, I would vote to repeal it. Punishing someone for expressing his sexual preference through noncommercial consensual conduct with another adult does not appear to be a worthy way to expend valuable law enforcement resources."

{Lawrence v. Texas -Justice Thomas Dissent}

Yours is/was a layman’s tepid foray into judicial interpretation. As such a strong advocate for the feminist/autonomous living constitutionalism strain of judicial politics you naturally read Thomas’s dissent for what proved valuable to your worldview rather than for what its author truly meant.

Your tirade against the “bigoted” Scalia reveals your inability to distinguish political views properly left to democratic deliberation from legal views proper to constitutional interpretation.

The crux of the problem (as it often is with progressives) is the total & complete ignorance of your opposition’s worldview. Believe me, I’m more than tutored in the varieties of “eternal varieties” of the left. Your obstinacies however a rooted in the kind of bigotry that only a consciously closed mind can produce.

Even Ross's Saint Buckley once threatened to punch a "queer" in the face on NATIONAL TV.

... after said queer, the brilliant but hyper-irritating Gore Vidal, called Buckley a Nazi. Hardly evidence of raging gay-hate, which Buckley's other friendships would seem to make unlikely.

She has voted for the business position in many business cases, such as authoring the opinion upholding copyright term extension. She votes with the "conservatives" all the time.

Dilan, that's true -- but I think that's because Ginsburg just isn't terribly "socialist," though her economic views are of course lefter than mine or Scalia's. The cases in the last half of the century that have most inclined justices to absurd or weak readings have been more about "culture war" issues, privacy, and sex (ok, and crime) than about economics, where I think even the bogus rulings have more plausibility or grounding in past bad precedent. The modern American left is, in practice, as Hector might (I don't know) agree, considerably more inclined to be anti-democratic and fuzzy-minded in pursuit of sexual license or ethnic grievance than in pursuit of economic redistribution. On more economic issues, all of the justices are more willing to use their fine intellects to decide law rather than to hunt down justifications for their preferred outcomes. But I don't see Ginsburg, on a core issue (racial preferences or abortion) of her identity rather than economic preferences, ruling against her own side. While Scalia and Thomas would, I would bet dollars to donuts, dissent vociferously should a miracle induce the other justices to suddenly rule that the Constitution prohibits abortion.

Moe to Hector:

You're young and you're well-educated, and you really have no excuses for writing this sort of revolting horseshit.

Moe, I'm well-educated and not that much older than Hector. This belief that education (and youth?) magically entail certain viewpoints is pretty silly.

How do _you_ think that someone who is with the Republicans on abortion, but with the Democrats on, say, most issues of foreign policy, economics and the environment, ought to vote?

The Democrats aren't really likely to give you that much you want on economics or the environment, in a significant way, I'd guess. On foreign policy, they might, I suppose, in a random and cautious fashion.

I don't know what I'd do. I'm not terribly thrilled with the Republicans foreign policy, myself, and on economics am more of the "well, the Democrats will likely do more harm" than having any enthusiasm, but will still probably tepidly pull the level for McCain.

Don't you see that you prove Scalia's point every time you argue that wife-swapping, pornography, etc. ought to be tolerated? (I'm pretty sure you _have_ made such arguments before.)

Hector, wife-swapping is not constitutionally protected. And pornography is protected under the First Amendment, not under Lawrence.

There is one case I am aware of currently in litigation that I would argue Lawrence's rationale extends to, and that's the Alabama ban on the sale of sex toys. I don't think it is a threat to the republic to strike down a ban on sex toys.

Do you think that adultery, consensual incest (say brother-sister), polygamy, prostitution, pornography, and incest ought to be against the law.

In order, no, yes, yes (in the sense of multiple marriages, not multiple sex partners), yes (but only some types), no (but child pornography should be), and yes.

But I don't think any of those things should be against the law because your Imaginary Friend allegedly condemned them when he appeared to ignorant people and gave them false teachings thousands of years ago. Rather, some of those things do actual harm.

You know nothing of the law, legal philosophy or the personalities or philosophies involved in jurisprudence.

Um, Fitz, how many law review articles have you published in peer reviewed journals? (I have published a handful while also practicing as a lawyer.) How many courts and scholars have cited you? (I've been cited a fairly significant number of times.)

Your insistence on the bigotry of Scalia reveals your mistake. If Thomas though moral prohibitions on homosexuality were bigoted or even "silly" why would he predicate his hypothetical opposition to them on the basis of allotment of finite “law enforcement resources." rather than a direct appeal to the liberty interests and humanity of homosexuals?

Because part of the reason he thinks that Scalia is being silly in saying the Republic is going to fall if we can't legislate morality is that this type of morals legislation is completely unenforceable?

As such a strong advocate for the feminist/autonomous living constitutionalism strain of judicial politics you naturally read Thomas’s dissent for what proved valuable to your worldview rather than for what its author truly meant.

You know, feminism and living constitutionalism are two very different things. I'm a feminist, but I am not much of a living constitutionalist, especially where the Due Process clause is concerned.

I don't think there is a rational basis for sodomy laws that would throw gays in jail. And the Due Process clause has long been interpreted, in precedents that even Scalia and Bork and Thomas accept, to require a rational basis for any legislation that impinges on a person's liberty interests.

But I am not really a fan of the idea that the Due Process clause is a font of unending new rights. The Ninth Amendment? Sure. Equal protection? That can be argued. But Due Process should basically protect against procedural unfairness and government irrationality.

You assume way too much about my attitude about these things. There are many, many constitutional questions where I agree with conservatives.

You might want to educate yourself about theories of constitutional interpretation from sources other than conservative media before you make such assumptions again.

Your tirade against the “bigoted” Scalia reveals your inability to distinguish political views properly left to democratic deliberation from legal views proper to constitutional interpretation.

Fitz, if Scalia had just said "the Due Process clause has not historically restricted legislation prohibiting homosexual conduct" and left it at that, I wouldn't have called him a bigot. He did not do that-- he CELEBRATED sodomy laws and said they were essential to the moral fabric of society and that gays having sex with each other was comparable to bestiality and the like. Only someone who hates gays would say that.

The cases in the last half of the century that have most inclined justices to absurd or weak readings have been more about "culture war" issues, privacy, and sex (ok, and crime) than about economics, where I think even the bogus rulings have more plausibility or grounding in past bad precedent.

Marquis, it isn't even entirely clear that Ginsburg thought Roe was correctly decided. She wrote an article in the 1970's ripping into it pretty good. She may just be respecting it as a precedent under stare decisis.

Hector (writes.)
“If you can give me a convincing argument why full acceptance of homosexuality does not imply acceptance of these other things, then I will concede your point.
I think such an argument can be made (how logically strong it is remains to be proven). But you haven't made it and as long as you invoke 'consent' alone, Scalia's point stands.”

Its not a question of mere “imply (cation of) acceptance” it’s a question of law & constitutional interpretation. Scalia’s point (as well as say: Santorum’s) is not to imply that homosexual conduct is the moral equivalent of anything as pedestrian as masturbation, fornication or adultery to anything as foreign as voluntary cannibalism, bestiality or necrophilia.

The point (one I suspect Dilan and most observers readily understand yet twist for political gain) is that under the reasoning in Lawrence all these could be called into constitutional question.

The ability to draw a discrete and demonstrable social harm to society from these practices can be obscured & dismissed as readily as Lawrence seeks to do. The ability of the State under its police powers to maintain public morality can as readily be dismissed as mere distaste & bigotry against these practices.

Recently no less a Jurist than Richard Posner recently upheld state statutes against the production, sale & consumption of hoarse meat. Several states have such (recently new) injunctions, so they cant even be said to be “deeply rooted in our history & tradition” as sodomy laws are.

http://www.volokh.com/posts/chain_1117261999.shtml
Nevertheless: as Posner explains, these laws are constitutional on no other basis then they uphold the moral consensus of the people of that state against eating horses. No arguments are forwarded concerning the validity of these laws on any other basis than moral disapproval. Posner readily admits the problem such laws (& a myriad of others) prove in the face of Lawrence.

As Scalia notes in his dissent: the validity of ANY morals legislation can be called radically into question under the majority opinion in Lawrence.

Interestingly, I've heard it said that prohibitions against the eating of horse meat also have a religious foundation. Horsemeat was outlawed by, I believe, one of the medieval Popes, because it was associated with certain pagan sacrifices and also possibly because horses were needed as a valuable labor force for society.

I think the better case for the toleration of homosexuality would rest on its being (apparently) an innate condition and therefore that prohibiting it would represent an unfair burden on homosexuals who are not all called to celibacy any more than all straight people are. Perhaps Dilan will make that case one of these days.

Dilan,

Here we go again. Let me give you an analogy for Scalia's position.

Obviously, I think that the laws of England should allow Anglicans and Catholics equal status, and extend them equal rights to participate in society, etc, and therefore I agree with the Catholic Emancipation of 1829. But if some jurist in England in 1829 had issued a judicial decision saying any of the following

-"Catholics should be emancipated because Anglicanism and Catholicism are equally fictitious stories about an imaginary person in the sky and equally unconvincing to a reasonable person."
-"Catholics should be emancipated because religion is purely a private matter and it's no concern of society what religion its members choose to follow."
-"Catholics should be emancipated because, come to think of it, the Pope was actually right back in 1520, and Thomas Cranmer was an filthy rebel who deserved his posthumous execution.*"

Then I would disapprove of the decision (not the outcome). It's not the outcome (equal rights for Catholics and Anglicans) that I disagree with, but the reasoning process. In all three cases I disagree with the reasoning process and fear that while the immediate goal is one I agree with, the ultimate outcome would be that society accepts a false and pernicious premise.

*Come to think of it, those 16th century people could do things in style....why don't we have posthumous executions anymore?

Its not a question of mere “imply (cation of) acceptance” it’s a question of law & constitutional interpretation. Scalia’s point (as well as say: Santorum’s) is not to imply that homosexual conduct is the moral equivalent of anything as pedestrian as masturbation, fornication or adultery to anything as foreign as voluntary cannibalism, bestiality or necrophilia. The point (one I suspect Dilan and most observers readily understand yet twist for political gain) is that under the reasoning in Lawrence all these could be called into constitutional question.

That's a distinction without a difference. It would only call those things into question that are just as harmless and morally justified as two people of the same gender having sex with each other are. The only way you therefore get to the conclusion that legalizing gay sex = legalizing bestiality is if you think that bestiality and gay sex are functional equivalents. Scalia thinks that, because despite his intelligence as a jurist, he clings to a profoundly stupid and evil moral code.

Nevertheless: as Posner explains, these laws are constitutional on no other basis then they uphold the moral consensus of the people of that state against eating horses. No arguments are forwarded concerning the validity of these laws on any other basis than moral disapproval. Posner readily admits the problem such laws (& a myriad of others) prove in the face of Lawrence.

That's very silly, Fitz. Eating horsemeat harms the horses. A woman eating another woman's vagina harms nobody and pleases the two participants.

I think the better case for the toleration of homosexuality would rest on its being (apparently) an innate condition and therefore that prohibiting it would represent an unfair burden on homosexuals who are not all called to celibacy any more than all straight people are.

Hector, I agree with this, but I also don't think it matters even if the activity is merely chosen. Engaging in that activity is irrelevant to a person's worth as a human being, and the groups that engaged in it have been historically persecuted (by the Scalias of the world). Plus, I also think that preventing this sort of morals legislation from being enacted (where there is no issue of the activity doing harm to anyone) is important to uphold the principle that the majority's religious beliefs should not be imposed on those who don't agree with them. That's not a constitutional concern (I don't think the First Amendment prohibits that in all instances), but it is I think important to maintain the legitimacy of secular government that doesn't play favorites among religions.

Fitz to Dilan: "You know nothing of the law, legal philosophy or the personalities or philosophies involved in jurisprudence.

Yours is a just-so-story, post-hoc rationalization of your ignorance on the subject. You have no idea what "just about everyone in the legal community" thinks about anything. "

Fitz, you just may be the biggest fool I have ever encountered online, and that's a huge achievement on your part.

I hadn't known Dilan was a lawyer before I saw him say so in this thread, but I've seen the two of you go around on legal issues a time or two, and in every single case he has kicked your jurisprudent dick into the dirt. And he's done so effortlessly.

I don't practice law and haven't done so for some time, but I did graduate from law school and pass the bar and work in the field, albeit in a practice where theory and case law weren't used very often. But I'm familiar enough with the jargon and case law to tell when a lawyer has the goods and when he's faking it - and Fitz, you're a complete goddamned fraud. You have a grasp of constitutional law that would embarrass most 1st year law students as they prepared for the final exam in that particular class.

It's not just that Dilan knows the material better than you do - you're also stupid. He presents a well-supported and well-reasoned argument and rather than counter it you come back with this pathetic "you know nothing" garbage because you're NOT SWIFT ENOUGH to catch on to the fact that he's obviously done his homework.

You're far from the only idiot with a shingle. It's amazing how easy it is to get a law degree. But when you combine your innate stupidity with your poor writing skills, your weird, unearned arrogance, and your various bigotries and primitive superstitions, you win. You're the Intertube's #1 Boob.

Where should I send your Giant Purple Tit? (It's made out of Play-Doh so you'll have hours of fun with it.)

Hector & Dilan

“Interestingly, I've heard it said that prohibitions against the eating of horse meat also have a religious foundation. Horsemeat was outlawed by, I believe, one of the medieval Popes, because it was associated with certain pagan sacrifices and also possibly because horses were needed as a valuable labor force for society.”

Yes exactly: like multiple morals legislation (or any other) it often has historical and contemporary facsimiles in religious, philosophical, ethical, & secular reasoning.

Dilan would have us believe that this Papal pronouncement you speak of, by its very existence makes any other arguments against hoarse eating ipso facto unconstitutionally “theocratic”

While his moral compass says “Eating horsemeat harms the horses” it does not say “practicing sodomy hurts homosexuals so ergo, whatever laws Dilan doesn’t agree with are unconstitutional & whatever laws he agrees with are constitutionally enshrined. His fellow citizens be damned, their opinions no matter how strongly held, argued or historically rooted MUST be dismissed as hateful bigotry.

“I think the better case for the toleration of homosexuality would rest on its being (apparently) an innate condition and therefore that prohibiting it would represent an unfair burden on homosexuals who are not all called to celibacy any more than all straight people are. Perhaps Dilan will make that case one of these days.”

I think a better case than that can be made that sexual conduct of almost any variety – as long as its non-exploitive, non-commercial & between consenting adults should be approached with a “hand-off” approach by the state given its intimate & private dimensions.

However – (of course) this is an argument for the Texas legislature & not remotely a matter of constitutional law.

I can't believe that Dilan seriously thinks that eating horsemeat is banned because it harms the horses. The origin of the ban on horsemeat stems from a combination of religious, economic and moral arguments that have nothing to do with animal rights. It's not illegal to KILL horses, Dilan, just to EAT them.

So Dilan, you don't think that adultery, 'some forms' of prostitution, 'swinging' or pornography ought to be against the law.

You keep throwing axioms out there, like 1) a secular government is necessarily better than a Christian inflected one, 2) that the state should not try to shape the moral behaviors of its inhabitants, 3) causing 'harm' is the criterion that the state should use when deciding to make something illegal, 4) adultery and promiscuity andother sins don't cause _spiritual_ harm to the participants even if there is no discernible _physical_ harm, etc. To take just axiom 2, most thinkers who have devoted any serious thought to the matter would say that it is eminently the role of the state to try and push its inhabitants in the direction of virtue. It's not just Christian moralists who say this. As diverse a group of people as Plato, Aquinas, St. Augustine, Rousseau,
Marx, and Sorel would agree that the private beliefs and behaviors of citizens are eminently the concern of the state.

So Dilan, what happens if you whip out your axioms and I refuse to accept them? Be informed that what are convincing arguments to your colleagues and the legal profession may not be convincing to those of us who are not drunk on the wine of J.S. Mill and Adam Smith.

Hector wobbles and almost falls down: "It's not just Christian moralists who say this. As diverse a group of people as Plato, Aquinas, St. Augustine, Rousseau,
Marx, and Sorel would agree that the private beliefs and behaviors of citizens are eminently the concern of the state.

So Dilan, what happens if you whip out your axioms and I refuse to accept them? Be informed that what are convincing arguments to your colleagues and the legal profession may not be convincing to those of us who are not drunk on the wine of J.S. Mill and Adam Smith."

Fortunately, Hector, there aren't many people left - right OR left - who have much interest in the dumbass moral legislations you and affiliated freaks have in mind.

It's interesting how neither Moe nor Dilan has seriously attempted, in the course of this argument, to provide arguments as to the morality of homosexuality. I'm sure such arguments exist, but I haven't heard Moe or Dilan provide them. They've thrown around names, true- "imaginary sky fairy", "bigot", "dumbass"- but they haven't really attempted to provide any arguments. Certainly I'm not going out of this thread any more convinced as to the morality of homosexuality than I came in.

To the extent that I do have to question what the New Testament says about homosexuality, it comes from knowing and interacting with gay people (including a gay minister who's a friend of mine) and certainly not from the kind of 'argumentation' (or lack thereof) provided by people like Moe and Dilan.

I mean, guys, you do understand that name calling, refusing to provide arguments, and referencing axioms about 'toleration' and 'freedom' that your interlocutors probably don't share, is not the way to convince anyone of your cause? And contrary to what you may think, the burden of proof is very definitely on _you_ to show why homosexuality is moral.

Hector writes: "It's interesting how neither Moe nor Dilan has seriously attempted, in the course of this argument, to provide arguments as to the morality of homosexuality."

Why would we? That would be incredibly stupid. It would be like providing arguments about the morality of lefthandedness. (Of course at one time religious nitwits thought THAT trait was debbilish, too.)

"I mean, guys, you do understand that name calling, refusing to provide arguments, and referencing axioms about 'toleration' and 'freedom' that your interlocutors probably don't share, is not the way to convince anyone of your cause? And contrary to what you may think, the burden of proof is very definitely on _you_ to show why homosexuality is moral."

Sorry, Hector, but that ship has sailed. You're on the losing end of history. And it's not namecalling to call you a bigot, it's simply accurate observation.

Dilan, Hector & All

Note Unfortunately Atlantic Monthly Blog is having a hard time receiving post with multiple LINKS to other articles. Its imperative to this post that those links be available – least I not prove my point. I have rearticulated this post over at the group Blog I contribute to called Opine Editorials. This post with its appropriate links can be accessed by pressing on the name Fitz at the bottom of this post

Dilan Esper (writes)

“Um, Fitz, how many law review articles have you published in peer reviewed journals? (I have published a handful while also practicing as a lawyer.) How many courts and scholars have cited you? (I've been cited a fairly significant number of times.)”

Well, oh my! Perhaps I can clue you in on some research idea’s before you publish your next magnum opus, entitled: "Na.Na.Na.Na. I can’t’ here you! RascistSexistHomophobic none of my opposition has a rational bone it its body because there all Theo-Bigots, Theo-Bigots, Theo-Bigots!!!!"

It sounds like an interesting work (and one I’ve read before) but it requires that you ruthlessly ignore little things like (well) the breadth & depth of American Jurisprudence.

In order to get you started let me point to the tip of the iceberg.

You may want to stop by THIS article because that’s precisely what you’re doing.

It’s by the notorious ignoramus, Steven D. Smith; Warren Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of San Diego and the author of Law’s Quandary (Harvard University Press, 2004).

Then you may want to familiarize yourself with small & abstract thinkers like THIS.

Feel free to familiarize yourself with THIS work of homo-bigotry & vile hatred, published by Princeton Press home of the Looney right wing screed.

For added exploration of the “irrational mind” you may consider selected works of Nobel Prize winning economics professor at the University of California, Berkeley - George A. Akerlof. His multiple offenses to your narrow worldview include (specifically) his multiple works on the economics of childbearing & marriage.

See, the problem with your entire approach is that it is nothing more than setting up straw men of your imaginary right to knock down. This requires that you demonize anyone who disagrees with you (like Scalia). The entire breadth of your“legal reasoning” is predicated on your opposition being “unreasonable”. This line of though necessitates that you dismiss any & all of the scholars above (as well as myself).

This is the box you have put yourself in.

Now I am sure you’re more than capable of spending the rest of your life in blissful ignorance of what your opposition actually believes. It’s so very useful when it comes time to dismiss them and their reasoning as hopelessly antiquated, based in strange superstition, and dismissible as mere bigotry or outright hatred.

I on the other hand am bound by a central tenant of liberalism when it comes to approaching those I disagree with. This is the understanding of liberalism as “generosity of spirit.”

{Now: If you must dismiss that as well – Its Theo-centric equivalent travels under the title “Christian Charity”}

Fitz types: "Perhaps I can clue you in on some research idea’s before you publish your next magnum opus, entitled: "Na.Na.Na.Na. I can’t’ here you! RascistSexistHomophobic none of my opposition has a rational bone it its body because there all Theo-Bigots, Theo-Bigots, Theo-Bigots!!!!""

The plural of idea is ideas, not "idea's." It's "I can't hear you," not "I can't' here you." And it should be "in it's body because they're all," not "it its body because there all."

Fitz also typed: "I on the other hand am bound by a central tenant of liberalism when it comes to approaching those I disagree with."

Of course the word is "tenets," not "tenants," but then folks of questionable literacy like Fitz are too busy accusing their intellectual superiors of ignorance to pay attention to their own.

Like the coward he is, Fitz refused to answer Dilan's question about how many peer reviewed journals he has been published in. I'll come to his aid and answer for the poor stupid oaf. The answer is none, of course. Fitz can barely write his own name without moving his lips.

While his moral compass says “Eating horsemeat harms the horses” it does not say “practicing sodomy hurts homosexuals so ergo, whatever laws Dilan doesn’t agree with are unconstitutional & whatever laws he agrees with are constitutionally enshrined. His fellow citizens be damned, their opinions no matter how strongly held, argued or historically rooted MUST be dismissed as hateful bigotry.

Fitz, eating horsemeat harms the HORSES. Not the people eating the horses.

Eating vagina, on the other hand, clearly doesn't harm anyone other than the participants. And bigoted homophobes have no business telling the participants in that act, who enjoy it, that eating vagina harms them either.

I can't believe that Dilan seriously thinks that eating horsemeat is banned because it harms the horses. The origin of the ban on horsemeat stems from a combination of religious, economic and moral arguments that have nothing to do with animal rights. It's not illegal to KILL horses, Dilan, just to EAT them.

Actually, the recent bans on eating horsemeat have been predicated at least in part on reports on how bad the conditions in horse slaughterhouses.

In any event, you miss the point, which is even if people have religious beliefs against eating horsemeat, it ALSO harms the horses. Theft is condemned in the 10 commandments too, but I doubt any religious believer claims there are no secular reasons for prohibiting theft.

In contrast, lesbians eating vagina harms nobody. The only claimed reason to ban it is because of a religious claim that nonbelievers cannot be under any obligation to obey.

adultery and promiscuity andother sins don't cause _spiritual_ harm to the participants even if there is no discernible _physical_ harm, etc

The state should not make determinations based on hallucinations induced by LSD, or the delusions of a mentally ill person.

For the same reason, the state should not decide what harms our nonexistent spirit.

You guys have the right to believe whatever BS you want. You do not have the right to use the state's monopoly on force to compel others to do what your hallucinated, imagined "deity" allegedly tells you to do.

The entire issue here is about the fact that you guys are so egotistical that you can't simply abide by "knowing" the TRUTH yourself-- you have to force others to know the truth. And that is an illegitmate use of government force.

Dilan Esper writes: "In contrast, lesbians eating vagina harms nobody. The only claimed reason to ban it is because of a religious claim that nonbelievers cannot be under any obligation to obey."

There's a kosher joke here somewhere, I just know it.

And imagining the reflexive grimace on Fitz's caveman visage when he reads the phrase "eating vagina" is funny. I think it's more likely that he's eaten fried platypus than that he's been to the Y.

Dilan,

Who cares if eating horsemeat harms the horses? It doesn't actually--the horses are already dead. It's not illegal to kill horses and turn them into glue, it's just illegal to turn them into meat. anyway, the ban was passed for moral reasons, not silly animal rights ones.

No, I don't think it's an illegitimate use of government force. The government can and should compel people to obey at least the basic precepts of morality and to emerge at least partially from being absorbed in themselves. Aren't you a man of the left, Dilan? aren't we supposed to be the ones who talk about creating a New Man and so forth? What do you think that is except a kind of compulsion to morality?

Can it be a matter of indifference to the state as to the moral behaviors and beliefs of its inhabitants? No, it cannot. You can argue (convincingly, perhaps) that homosexuality is sufficiently unchangeable as to be regarded as a disability rather than a crime, and not to be punished by the law. But you can't argue that the state has no right (and duty) to try to encourage its citizens to adhere to a moral ideal. That's just silly.

"And the master said unto the slave, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." Luke 14;23.

Hector writes: "You can argue (convincingly, perhaps) that homosexuality is sufficiently unchangeable as to be regarded as a disability rather than a crime, and not to be punished by the law."

Like abortion, homosexuality is a topic that stuns your brain into a level of functionality that would embarrass a rat, Hector. If you actually think Dilan would argue that homosexuality is a "disability," then you're approaching Fitz-level idiocy.

Dilan

Dilan continues to elide the point. No level of derision is going to scare off the considerable amount of legal scholarship I point to above.

Each and every article I link to disagrees with your entire premise.

Your dismissal of the main dissent in Lawrence as ravenously hatefully & irrational is simply the only way you can (continue to) manage your refusal to confront the entire breadth of American legal jurisprudence up until Lawrence.

Bowers v. Hardwick commanded a SCOTUS majority as recently as 1986, & stood as law until 2003.

“Of course the same could be said of any law. A law against public nudity targets "the conduct that is closely correlated with being a nudist," and hence "is targeted at more than conduct"; it is "directed toward nudists as a class." But be that as it may. Even if the Texas law does deny equal protection to "homosexuals as a class," that denial still does not need to be justified by anything more than a rational basis, which our cases show is satisfied by the enforcement of traditional notions of sexual morality.” (Scalia dissent - Lawrence)


Now perhaps you can tell us how public nudity “harms” individuals or society. Likewise with the hoarse meat statute I point to that Posner recognizes as predicated simply on a public distaste for hoarse eating & eaters.

”I turn now to the ground on which the Court squarely rests its holding: the contention that there is no rational basis for the law here under attack. This proposition is so out of accord with our jurisprudence--indeed, with the jurisprudence of any society we know--that it requires little discussion.”

“The Texas statute undeniably seeks to further the belief of its citizens that certain forms of sexual behavior are "immoral and unacceptable," Bowers, supra, at 196--the same interest furthered by criminal laws against fornication, bigamy, adultery, adult incest, bestiality, and obscenity. Bowers held that this was a legitimate state interest. “ (Scalia dissent - Lawrence)


Now Dilan, you can continue to pretend that Scalia is comparing homosexuality to bestiality in some attempt to slander homosexuals. Or you could concentrate on criminal laws against fornication, bigamy, adultery, adult incest, public nudity and obscenity.

All such laws have a foundational public purpose in promoting traditional notions of sexual morality. These are neither delusional notions, unreasonable notions, nor narrow sectarian notions.

It is indeed you sir: who mark yourself as the bigot (in the purest sense) when you dismiss the multitude of legal scholars I link to as so many fools.

It must be edifying in some strange way to never have to confront the actual objections of your adversaries.

Such close mindedness however is the very definition of bigot.

Now perhaps you can tell us how public nudity “harms” individuals or society.

Fitz:

Unwanted public nudity is sexual harassment and harms people.

Public nudity in a forum where everyone consents to it (e.g., a strip bar or a nudist colony) ought to be constitutionally protected free speech (as it stands now, the Court has ruled that the police can make everyone where pasties and a g-string, which is silly).

In any event, you miss the point, which is even if people have religious beliefs against eating horsemeat, it ALSO harms the horses. Theft is condemned in the 10 commandments too, but I doubt any religious believer claims there are no secular reasons for prohibiting theft.

Dilan, you're intentionally (I think) slipping past the issue here. Killing horses may indeed be bad for horses (I won't argue -- though they shoot horses, don't they?). But, as Hector points out again, they're DEAD by the time they are eaten. No harm can come to the horse beyond that already taken. And killing horses is not, to my knowledge, generally outlawed, though animal cruelty can apply sometimes. You could argue that the horsemeat laws are only legitimate because of the indirect point of slaughterhouse conditions, or that eating horsemeat harms the eaters in that it's bad for their health in a way that (say) cow meat isn't. But you do need to do that instead of just appeal to "harm to the horses" without further comment.

More generally, why should Hector and I agree to your definition of harm, or that mental/spiritual harms are not things the state can have a role in preventing? You and Moe agree on that (mostly, though I suspect there are lurking exceptions). That's ok. You vote, we vote. But there's no actual Constitutional principle that makes this a litmus test for legitimate law (that some supporters support the law because it is in conformance with their religion's teachings about the nature of man and the world as opposed to it being in conformance with, say, Moe's atheist views of the nature of man and the world).

Dilan
"Unwanted public nudity is sexual harassment and harms people."

How is it "sexual harassment" & were the "harm"?

Your statement is no more "rationally" founded then Scalia & the Bowers majority claiming the "enforcement of traditional notions of sexual morality" Indeed the past precedent, historical rooted ness, & logical coherence of those norms surpass anything offered (or rather never proffered) in the upholding of various morals legislation.

To replace the lineage of American law in such matters with a current P.C. terminology (“sexual harassment”) as the grounding of the “harm” displays the vacuous ness of your approach.

You really should read the LINKS I went to the trouble of providing you.
At this point it seems that there are only two possibilities for your worldview.

#1. You are ignorant of your opposition’s arguments.

#2. You are aware of your oppositions arguments, find them too compelling to overcome & are forced to misrepresent them.

Dilan, you're intentionally (I think) slipping past the issue here. Killing horses may indeed be bad for horses (I won't argue -- though they shoot horses, don't they?). But, as Hector points out again, they're DEAD by the time they are eaten. No harm can come to the horse beyond that already taken. And killing horses is not, to my knowledge, generally outlawed, though animal cruelty can apply sometimes. You could argue that the horsemeat laws are only legitimate because of the indirect point of slaughterhouse conditions, or that eating horsemeat harms the eaters in that it's bad for their health in a way that (say) cow meat isn't. But you do need to do that instead of just appeal to "harm to the horses" without further comment.

I didn't think I had to explain this, but I guess I will state the obvious-- creating a market for horsemeat increases the number of horses who get killed.

More generally, why should Hector and I agree to your definition of harm, or that mental/spiritual harms are not things the state can have a role in preventing? You and Moe agree on that (mostly, though I suspect there are lurking exceptions). That's ok. You vote, we vote. But there's no actual Constitutional principle that makes this a litmus test for legitimate law (that some supporters support the law because it is in conformance with their religion's teachings about the nature of man and the world as opposed to it being in conformance with, say, Moe's atheist views of the nature of man and the world).

Marquis:

1. You can argue against my conception of harm, but if you refer to the "spiritual", you are outside the bounds of secular government. Go establish a theocracy somewhere, but that violates a founding principle of American government.

2. There are, in fact, two constitutional principles involved here. The first is the establishment clause, though I realize conservatives have convinced themselves that the separation of church and state is a myth.

More importantly, though, there's the rational basis test, which is widely accepted (even by Bork and Scalia) and holds that laws must relate to legitimate state interests. The contested ground is whether pleasing your deity is a legitimate interest for the state. Again, I would suggest that in a secular republic, the answer is no. That's the difference between our system and a theocracy.

Fitz:

I am trying to figure out whether you don't believe that sexual harassment exists or you don't believe that a person exposing him- or herself to unwanted viewers could constitute a form of sexual harassment.

Either way, it seems that merely mentioning the term "sexual harassment" activated the neurons in your brain that reflexively condemn "political correctness". What it did not do, however, is trigger a coherent response.

The contested ground is whether pleasing your deity is a legitimate interest for the state.

But I think on wider philosophical grounds, the idea that killing is bad for the killed, or of consent in sex is essentially "irrational" -- that is, it's hard to find watertight arguments for much of anything, if you've read Hume and had a beer or two.

The establishment clause precludes establishing a church. I can read it. It doesn't say what motivations voters must have in deciding on laws; moreover, it doesn't magically (as you sometimes seem to do) produce a rule that any law proposed with both secular arguments and purely religious arguments cannot be seen as rational.

It might or might not be a great argument, and I don't really have much use for sodomy laws (they cannot be enforced, unless it is public sex, in which case other laws work better, without a problematic invasion of private life), but it seems that (given you can legitmate anti-horsemeat laws on an indirect point about markets for horsemeat) you could argue, given rates for various STDs and scientific literature on promiscuity and the like, that discouraging (male) homosexuality is a perfectly legitimate state interest. Now, you might think that's a _bad_ argument -- but the Supreme Court is willing to accept even less plausible arguments about the need for diversity in education as rational justification for _racial discrimination_ -- so something being a weak argument isn't an automatic dismissal of its "rational" (vs. "correct") nature.

Go establish a theocracy somewhere, but that violates a founding principle of American government.

The problem is that the things you wish this principle to rule out were often commonly accepted for a long time after the founding -- they haven't become more secular, particularly, they've just become (somewhat) less popular. In essence, you want to use an imaginary, purer founding to justify principles that few of the founders, even those more disposed to your views, would have likely granted, and that no democratic majority has yet accepted.

It might or might not be a great argument, and I don't really have much use for sodomy laws (they cannot be enforced, unless it is public sex, in which case other laws work better, without a problematic invasion of private life), but it seems that (given you can legitmate anti-horsemeat laws on an indirect point about markets for horsemeat) you could argue, given rates for various STDs and scientific literature on promiscuity and the like, that discouraging (male) homosexuality is a perfectly legitimate state interest. Now, you might think that's a _bad_ argument -- but the Supreme Court is willing to accept even less plausible arguments about the need for diversity in education as rational justification for _racial discrimination_ -- so something being a weak argument isn't an automatic dismissal of its "rational" (vs. "correct") nature.

Marquis, you are correct that you can make that argument. And then we get to the familiar calculus (in Constitutional law) of how much proof there must be that the law serves the legitimate interest. I wouldn't call anyone who argues that Lawrence should have come out the other way under Williamson v. Lee Optical a bigot. Wrong, maybe (because in the end I don't think there is a rational connection between homosexual activities and disease as opposed to heterosexual activities and disease). But it's a defensible argument, given how little proof the Court has required in other contexts.

But note, that's very different than saying that the states have the power to pass laws so long that have no secular justification whatsoever as they serve to enforce the religious doctrines that the majority believes in. And that's what Scalia believes the Constitution permits.

The problem is that the things you wish this principle to rule out were often commonly accepted for a long time after the founding -- they haven't become more secular, particularly, they've just become (somewhat) less popular. In essence, you want to use an imaginary, purer founding to justify principles that few of the founders, even those more disposed to your views, would have likely granted, and that no democratic majority has yet accepted.

Actually, Marquis, with respect to the federal government, these beliefs were there from the founding. Don't forget that the original Constitution was much more protective of state authority. The privileges and immunities clause of the 14th Amendment changed that.

that have no secular justification whatsoever as they serve to enforce the religious doctrines that the majority believes in.

Not quite; I think Scalia holds that _moral views_ of the majority should be given considerable power, including the idea of _moral harm_, even when there is no _utilitarian_ harm possible.

Which, philosophically, is more coherent than the other view, given that at bottom the "harms" inherent in any laws come down to moral views: that is, it's a moral (not factual) view that being hurt is bad, or that being alive is better than being dead, or that owning people is wrong. The Constitution places limits on majority rights, but those are (in my view) more explicit and rooted and less philosophical than the principles you endorse. There is some history of precedent leaning in the "only utilitarian, not moral" harm direction, but most of it is judicial over-reaching, fundamentally anti-democratic and deriving from an antinomian stance or a desire for particular outcomes more than any coherent and rooted in a consent-based approach to government decision. Obviously we'll never come to an agreement here, but I think you want to draw much more of a hard-and-fast line than can possibly be drawn between "religious" laws and laws to "avoid harm". And, I suspect, if the "harm" is one that is essentially "spiritual" but not religious in nature, you are very likely to abandon your ideas to some extent. Sexual harassment, to jump into the other debate, when there is no coercion to perform acts (such as with public nudity) seems to harm the viewer only in the sense of "I didn't want to see that." But we distinguish seeing the genitals of others from say, seeing the color red (which I might dislike, to be frivolous) or seeing signs advocating some political position I dislike (to be less frivolous) only because of primarily religious (or at least traditionalist) heritage. That we _can_ in your world have laws against public nudity, but not against ugly t-shirts, essentially comes down to your accepting an irrational prejudice without utilitarian support.

Marquis:

At root, what you are claiming is because due to the uncertain state of epistemology and ethics, one can claim that contentions about physical and psychological harm may not be rooted in certain truth any more than claims of spiritual harm (i.e., claims that certain conduct will displease an alleged deity) are.

I have a couple of observations. One is that this is a very odd move for a committed religious believer to make. After all, if your religion tells you anything, it is that there are absolute truths and that these truths are knowable by humans. (Or, as I think I learned it, that "God given natural law is the basis of morality and that human law is based on the felt intuitions given to us by God and can and should reflect the laws of God". Something like that.)

But when defending the majority's right to write religious doctrines into law even if unsupported by a secular purpose, you claim that, in fact, there's no objective basis for determining whether a claim of harm is true, and therefore we must treat claims of harm based on religious belief the same as we do claims of harm based on secular knowledge. That's a fancy form of moral relativism, it seems to me.

Second, and more broadly, your claim is patently not true. Many types of harm are quite measurable and detectible. For instance, if we are neighbors and you dump effluent on my lawn, causing my plants to die and exposing me to toxic chemicals, I don't think that even the most skeptical of philosophers would deny my claim that this harmed me. And the fact is, that harm is verifiable in a way that your claim that a woman performing oral sex on another woman is harming herself or her co-participant is not verifiable.

Now, of course, some claims of harm are less verifiable than that. But our courts exist, in part, to adjudicate this sort of issue. If you are claiming that courts cannot consider whether the harm that the legislature sought to exist actually exists, then you must also believe that, for instance, a court cannot competently adjudicate a claim of reputational damage or emotional distress in a tort action. In fact, though, we entrust courts with the latter decision and I would suspect that most of us are not uncomfortable with that. So this idea that courts cannot adjudicate whether something actually causes harm is not consonant with our experience.

At bottom, the claim you and Scalia want to make is something else entirely-- that you don't have to show that homosexual conduct is harmful. It's enough that God condemns it, or, interchangeably, that a majority of the people in a jurisdiction believes that God condemns it. But that claim is, in the end, fundamentally different from a claim about incohate, but real harm. In the end, a good trier of fact can often sort out whether a plaintiff in an emotional distress suit is lying. But nobody can determine what God wants in a manner that is useful to the legal system. So a license to make laws based on religious morality is a license to make laws based on anything. There is no rational basis test left at all, and any freedom that a majority wishes to impinge on it can. This, of course, is inconsistent with the Ninth Amendment, and to the extent the desire is to compel adherence to religious tenets, it is inconsistent with the Establishment Clause as well.

Finally, I just want to say something about the arrogance of your position, and Scalia's. I doubt that if either of you lived in a country where another religious group had the levers of power that you would appreciate laws grounded solely on religious faith. For instance, I doubt very much you would think very highly of an Islamic regime which democratically enacted Prohibition with no exception for sacramental wine, for the express purpose of making Catholics obey the will of the deity the majority believes in.

So this, in the end, is about power. It is about bullying those you can't convince. If your religion is really the way, the truth, and the life, persuasion alone would be enough to convince gays and lesbians to go forth and sin no more (or at least that they should ATTEMPT not to engage in sodomy). Since you happen to live in the Christian majority state (and only because of that), you want the government to come in and force people to do what you can't convince them to. To force them to adhere to the dictates of a deity they do not believe in. To place them in a position that, there but for the grace of God go you.

I don't claim to be expert in the teachings of Jesus, but the New Testament I read expressed far more empathy for people in different circumstances, far more appreciation for how lucky anyone is for their station in life, than your belief system, or Scalia's (see his concurrence in Herrera v. Collins), ever did.

Dilan

"I am trying to figure out whether you don't believe that sexual harassment exists or you don't believe that a person exposing him- or herself to unwanted viewers could constitute a form of sexual harassment."

"Sexual harassment" is a subset in employment law. They are not available to the general public, but only applicable between employer & employee (Paula Jones) Public indecency statues are not based on any idea of “sexual harassment" rather they are (as stated) "enforcement of traditional notions of sexual morality."

Now I always found sexual harassment policies in the workplace to be rather Neo-Victorian; and as such I don’t have a major beef with them.

It seems however, you are either playing dumb, at this point - or are dumb.

To replace the classical understanding of morals legislation with some feminist language is not to refute those legal concepts.

On the contrary it is to demonstrate that a vague yet strongly held language is necessary to invalidate an action (in this case public nudity) that cannot be proven to have any “discreet & demonstrable harm.”

It’s simply irrelevant if the public nudist upsets my "traditional notions of sexual morality." or your Neo-Victorian feminists sensibilities. Under your interpretation of Lawrence each fails to satisfy the restrictions on the nudist’s liberty interests.

Well, except that I'm not arguing for laws against sodomy -- I said I think they are silly. But I don't think they are unconstitutional, or violate the ninth or first amendments. Much foolishness and unwisdom is constitutional. This is a core of our disputes -- you want to rule certain laws (that you and, in some cases, me) think are unwise or unjust out on principle in cases where I think this is absurd. I notice you ignore the public nudity case, I think because you recognize that the harm here is essentially more in the "irrational" realm but you don't want to dismiss it. My point is that from the points of courts dismissing laws, the rationality test cannot presume that any claims based partly on religious notions or concepts are therefore nonsense. A pure relativism might at least be fair; one that works by "ruling out" all claims of type X but not of type Y without a real foundation for this is mere prejudice. Now, I'm a conservative -- I think mere prejudice is a great foundation of the law, and often a very useful thing -- but to my knowledge you are not such a creature, and should be more troubled. That you aren't suggests the outcome of "no to religion, yes to my own views" is the key here. Sure, I believe in natural law. I doubt you do, so you can't really get away by pointing vaguely in its direction.

Look, I think laws against marijuana usage are idiotic, by and large. But I don't pretend the constitution says that, or that they have to ruled out of bounds axiomatically just because clearly some users are NOT harmed.

As to the point about Scalia and I in Saudi Arabia -- well, er, yes. I'm not content-neutral when evaluating laws or regimes. Prohibition is wrong and bad, but that's a content-specific judgment, not a general category containing all laws that are in some way like prohibition. Why do you imagine I'd be compelled to reason only on procedural categorical bases (as if I were a relativist)? Prohibition without an exception for sacramental wine would, of course, in the US, be a very plain violation of the First Amendment. We are not in much danger of it. I have not argued against the first amendment, only against your extension of it to rule out all laws that (maybe) have a religious basis in the minds of those who support them, even if supported by secular, but moral arguments.

There are, in fact, atheists who think homosexuality is bad for people. So long as we can produce one each time this comes up, can we steer clear of having laws that in some way oppose homosexuality ruled out by this particular test? That seems to make this a pretty useless test if it works, and a rather interesting and remarkable test if not (i.e., the courts and Dilan are ruling that such an atheist is somehow insane to think this, because you could ONLY reach this conclusion by religious thinking). You want to establish your philosophy quite deeply in the process used by courts. I actually don't to the same extent.

I really think you're going to have trouble coming up with a rational (on your grounds) basis for anti-nudity laws that isn't essentially rooted in very mere tradition or religion. Be consistent! Grant that rationally we shouldn't be allowed to have such laws, but that you take what you can get and the public would lynch your kind if it resulted in rampant naked Americans, given our national weight problem.

Prohibition without an exception for sacramental wine would, of course, in the US, be a very plain violation of the First Amendment.

Actually, Marquis, it wouldn't. See Employment Division v. Smith. Of course, the odds of Scalia actually applying his rationale in a case where a generally applicable law barred a Catholic practice are somewhere between slim and none, but that proves my point.

More generally, your post makes quite clear that your belief in the legitimacy of government imposition of religious belief depends on entirely on the religion being imposed being Christianity. And that belief is precisely contrary to the enforced neutrality among religions that is the bulwark of American religion.

And it further proves my point that this debate, in the end, is all about nothing more than yours and Scalia's desire to put the guns of the state to people's heads to force them to conform with Christian laws that they don't believe in. It is sad that people advocate this position in an Internet comments thread. It is scary that someone advocates this position on the United States Supreme Court.

(And by the way, my 4/7 1:30 pm post answers the public nudity argument.)

TMoC says: "There are, in fact, atheists who think homosexuality is bad for people. "

There are, in fact, Catholics who think kids who get boned by priests should shut the hell up and accept "pastoral counseling" in lieu of reporting the rape to the authorities. Cardinal Ratzinger rode this opinion to his current position as UberPope.

Yee hah.

Dilan,

You are aware that there are lots of atheists who want to crack down on homosexuality?

The only country in South America where homosexuality is a crime is Guyana, which is only about 50% Christian and is, actually, a former Marxist country. You can't blame that on religion, you know.

More deeply, when I say 'spiritual' I actually don't mean 'religious'. I am implying that I believe that we have a soul that's distinct from our body, that this soul has certain natural yearnings, tendencies, and characteristics, and that it can be most fulfilled (i.e. live out its true nature) when we conform to a certain ideal (well, any one of a number of ideals but all of which share certain characteristics).

Part of that ideal which is 'natural' for us and which realizes our fullest capacities and our most final ends, is the loving pair bond between a man and a woman. The man and woman aspect of it is important, since men and women are in many important ways- emotional, spiritual, psychological- complementary and complete one another. The physical complementarity is just one sign of a deeper spiritual complementarity. Another sign is the ability of a man and a woman to create a child together and in that small way take part in the creative process.

Homosexuality is obviously a violation of that ideal in which sexual relations reach their highest form. It is a violation at a deep level since it violates the structural complementarity of man and woman. Now you might or might not regard it as a sin, it might be fairly regarded as a disability instead. But I can't see it as just another 'lifestyle choice'.

You could get out of this of course by arguing that there is no such ideal, that people make their own ideals, and that there is no way or life that is intrinsically superior or more natural to any other. That raises a whole slew of other logical problems, but if you want to take that tack then say so, and I'll show you what those logical problems are.

"And it further proves my point that this debate, in the end, is all about nothing more than yours and Scalia's desire to put the guns of the state to people's heads to force them to conform with Christian laws that they don't believe in. It is sad that people advocate this position in an Internet comments thread. It is scary that someone advocates this position on the United States Supreme Court."

Well, it is certainly not scary that anyone advocated this position through SCOTUS since...No one does or ever has!

Not a single court has upheld sodomy law or any other public morals legislation on the basis of "its in the Bible"

More tellingly and as direct refutation of Dilans straw man is the fact that NO court has invalidated morals statutes (from Griswald to Roe to Lawrence) on the basis of "separation of Church and State" in the First Amendment.

This argument is a Non sequitur, legal fallacy, a red herring, a straw man. It is a fiction that far leftists choose to subscribe to because it accurately reflects THEIR thinking on the matter.

To date - No Federal or State Court has employed this line of reasoning.

Why? Because its ludicrous!

Dilans steadfast grip on sexual harassment as justification for public nudity statutes proves the point. (that self-proclaimed widely published legal eagle is unaware that)

#1. Public Nudity statutes predate the advent of sexual harassment law. S.H. is a subset of employment law were the S.H. creates a ”hostile work environment” to such a degree that the plaintiff cannot reasonably pursue his/her livelihood. It is a tort.

#2. Scalia specifically uses public nudity laws as a proxy for all public morals legislation.

“that this debate, in the end, is all about” the ability of a free people to enact the type of laws that it deems fit to create the kind of society it desires. Be it public nudity, adultery, sodomy, adult incest, or hoarse meat. All that is required of the public at large and the state is that these statutes have a reasonable state purpose.

The Marquis of Carabas

In defending public morals legislation of any stripe; it serves the cause better to not let yourself get dragged into the weeds of the 1st amendment & religion. All court precedent has avoided this entanglement through the simple application of reasonable state purpose to the law in question.

It only serves to obscure rather than enlighten the debate. For instance multiple State & Federal Courts have upheld Male/Female marriage as a “rational basis” against 14th amendment claims. From Washington, to Maryland, to New York & Rhoad Island. 1st Amendment claims & religion is not even argued by proponents of same-sex marriage. Indeed more States have declared it a “compelling state interest” than have even brought up ”separation of church & state” this includes concurrences & dissents.

While the intersection of religious beliefs and valid public laws may be infinitely fascinating. (as even Dilan admits laws against theft are not somehow invalid because they are also represented in the Bible) Approaching the topic from this position only obscures the long lineage in both legislative & common law of a myriad of morals legislation that easily meets the test of public validity.

You would do well to pop over to my blog and follow the LINKS I point to in my Posted by Fitz - April 6, 2008 1:45 PM. Within them lay the analysis of the validity & secular purpose of multiple morals legislation. They also contain an analysis of the intellectual dishonesty necessary for the Courts to overrule such legislation because individual judge’s policy preferences differ.

Not a single court has upheld sodomy law or any other public morals legislation on the basis of "its in the Bible"

Sure they do. When Scalia says that morality is a rational basis, he means that RELIGIOUS morality is a rational basis, because there is no intelligent secular moral principle that condemns placing a penis in an anus or a mouth or a mouth on a vagina.

Further, read Scalia's paen to American monotheism in his separate opinion in the ten commandments cases. He certainly does believe that the government has a legitimate interest in forcing the public to adhere to the laws of his deity.

Fitz position:

You would do well to pop over to my blog and follow the LINKS I point to in my Posted by Fitz - April 6, 2008 1:45 PM. Within them lay the analysis of the validity & secular purpose of multiple morals legislation.

My position:

there is no intelligent secular moral principle that condemns placing a penis in an anus or a mouth or a mouth on a vagina

My observation:

Don't let Fitz confuse things and talk about "morals legislation" and other euphamisms, and don't let Hector babble on about secular opposition to gays in cultures where people have traditionally hated gays.

The simple proposition for Fitz to defend is what intelligent SECULAR interest is there in preventing a person from placing a penis inside a mouth or an anus, or a mouth on a vagina. That's the question. Nothing about traditions, or other countries, or "morals", or anything else. And certainly nothing about what God wants or what monotheistic religions have traditionally taught. Tell us how the world will come crashing down because someone touches their genitals to an orfice other than the genitals of another person of the opposite sex. And stay specific on that subject. I want to hear this.

"Tell us how the world will come crashing down because someone touches their genitals to an orfice other than the genitals of another person of the opposite sex."

Tut-tut, Dilan! Such things must only happen in officially sanctioned places like prisons or British naval vessels, or the entire fabric of our society will fall apart and people wil lose faith in traditional values like torture and bombing the shit out of countries that never did anything to us.

Can't have that. It would make Fitz cry.

Dilan,

I just gave a nonreligious answer to your question, did you read it?

Why are you in favor of Chavez reconstructing his society on the basis of an economic ideal of virtue, but not in favor of the US taking some steps to establish a sexual ideal of virtue? Me, I'm in favor of both.

I just gave a nonreligious answer to your question, did you read it?

No, Hector, you didn't. My question is about penises, vaginas, anuses, and mouths. It's not about souls or spirits or traditional condemnations of homosexuality in other countries.

My question is if, for instance, someone decides to place his penis in another man's mouth, how will that lead to any sort of significant harm that a secularist would recognize and necessitates regulation by the state. In other words, take me from the entry of the penis into the mouth to the grave harm to our society, and do it without diverting into souls or spirits or traditions or anything else that isn't secular. And stay on course-- don't divert into general statements about "moral harm" or "moral degredation" or anything like that. Just tell me how the penis entering in the mouth specifically leads to a secularly-recognizable harm.

"Tell us how the world will come crashing down because someone touches their genitals to an orifice other than the genitals of another person of the opposite sex. And stay specific on that subject. I want to hear this."

The "world crashing down" is a sophomoric and (for your argument) a necessarily narrow framing of this issue that no legal reasoning is expected to meet.

You are looking for a "discreet & demonstrable harm" - Your standard tactic of setting up straw men.

"Tell us how the world will come crashing down because someone walks around naked in public (commits adultery, sells pornography, is in a polygamous marriage....) And stay specific on that subject. I want to hear this."

Kennedy does not predicate his decision in Lawrence on the lack of a “discreet & demonstrable harm” (preventing disease would suffice) Rather he heightens a non-existent liberty interest in a vain attempt to breach the yawning chasm that preserving traditional notions of sexual morality suffices.

If you took the time to read the LINKS I provide, or knew anything about the law you would know that your narrow insistence is foreign to the jurisprudence in this area.

(Speaking on Bowers, Scalia writes))
“The Court today does not overrule this holding. Not once does it describe homosexual sodomy as a "fundamental right" or a "fundamental liberty interest," nor does it subject the Texas statute to strict scrutiny. Instead, having failed to establish that the right to homosexual sodomy is " 'deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition,' " the Court concludes that the application of Texas's statute to petitioners' conduct fails the rational-basis test, and overrules Bowers' holding to the contrary, see id., at 196. "The Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual." Ante, at 18.”

As Justice Scalia makes clear in his dissent – It is not the refutation of the State’s interest but the elevation of the liberty interests (in there more “spatial & transcendent dimensions” - Kennedy) of homosexuals in private consensual conduct that it said to overcome the clear rule of precedent in the Lawrence decision.

Dilan,

I'm not, personally, in favor of sodomy laws. But one could conceivably make an argument that societal acceptance of penis-to-anus contact means that society might be accepting the following premises:

1. Men and women are not essentially different with regard to their spiritual, emotional and psychological natures, and are interchangeable with each other.
2. People can create their own identities completely at will and are not bound to the identities that are given to them by nature.
3. Our intuitive feelings of disgust and repugnance are simply subjective reactions with no objective validity.
4. One kind of sexual relations is intrinsically no better or worse than another.
5. Fraternal love and sexual love are not distinct and separate kinds of love.
6. Seeking sexual relationship with one who is structually 'the same' as oneself is have equal value as the kind of sexual relationship in which one is completed by a connection with the other and the essentially different.
7. There is nothing of essential value about the procreative act beyond what value we choose to give it.
8. We can create our own goals and meaning in life instead of conforming to a preexisting ideal of virtue.
9. The kind of promiscuity and disease associated with San Francisco bath houses is to be accepted.

And so on and so forth....I don't know if you agree with any of these propositions but I regard them as pernicious falsehoods. (Like all truly dangerous falsehoods of course they contain a grain of truth, which is why people find them convincing.)

I don't necessarily see homosexuality as a sin or a crime (I'm still agnostic about that) but it does seem to be at the least a falling away from the ideal, a disability perhaps.

Fitz and Hector:

I proved my point. You couldn't do it. You couldn't show me how inserting a penis into a mouth causes secular harm.

All of your arguments are premised on moving up to a general level of abstraction and talking about spirits and philosophical concepts about the nature of sexual relations. You can't show how that penis going into that mouth leads to anything harmful.

This really does get down to a contest between people who believe that the state has an interest in promoting their religious worldviews and those who don't. Yes, you CONVINCE yourself that in fact there are secular arguments in favor of your moral beliefs, but they are convoluted, circular arguments that are based on unknowable philosophical assumptions. It is no different from the way a believing Christian can CONVINCE him or herself that God's existence can be "proven" without reference to religious faith.

There is no way to cut through this Gordian knot. The only thing I can do is point to the fact that you are losing. Lawrence, after all, would not have happened if huge numbers of people still viewed oral and anal sex and beyond the pale, a crime against nature. You are mounting a rear guard action (pun intended) to protect beliefs that are fast fading.

That, of course, is fine, but it should be done in the pulpits and not in the legislature or the courts.

Hector writes: "The kind of promiscuity and disease associated with San Francisco bath houses is to be accepted."

Hoo boy. Hector, have you ever been laid?

I'm starting to wonder if you're... well... psychologically damaged in some way.

The majority of incidences of sexually transmitted diseases in this world involve heterosexual contact, chuckles - and that's always been true. It's even true of AIDS. I can't imagine being stupid enough to say that this fact implies that there's something innately wrong about heterosexual activity. But you're dumb enough to say just that about homosexuality.

I mean, if your uncle touched you there when you were 12 and you're still freaked out by it, get some help. Don't let it ruin your brains. Such as they are.

Dilan

“I proved my point. You couldn't do it. You couldn't show me how inserting a penis into a mouth causes secular harm

This secular harm is a construct of your own invention. As stated you cannot show how public nudity causes a harm, nor can you show how same-sex marriage causes the kind of harm you (pretend) is necessary.

“All of your arguments are premised on moving up to a general level of abstraction and talking about spirits and philosophical concepts about the nature of sexual relations. You can't show how that penis going into that mouth leads to anything harmful.”

Nor does the law require that the state “prove” a “discreet & demonstrable har” of the type you (pretend) is necessary. Preserving traditional notions of sexual morality has always been enough. Rather than remain intentionally ignorant of those (considerable) harms that culminate when such notions are undermined by the state,- you would do better to educate yourself with the LINKS I provided you. Its no mistake that your autonomous sexual revolutionary legal theory had the direct causal effect of 42% illegitimacy rates.

“This really does get down to a contest between people who believe that the state has an interest in promoting their religious worldviews and those who don't.

You wish. It is not our religious belief but rather the common good and our countries collective legal heritage. Lawrence is the outlier, NOT bowers. As Scalia point out so adeptly such (spurious) legal reasoning calls into question any morals legislation from adultery, to public nudity, to marriage, to fornication and prostitution.

The law advances on broad principles it can defend categorically. Like democratic legitimacy, shared history and public reason.

“Yes, you CONVINCE yourself that in fact there are secular arguments in favor of your moral beliefs, but they are convoluted, circular arguments that are based on unknowable philosophical assumptions. It is no different from the way a believing Christian can CONVINCE him or herself that God's existence can be "proven" without reference to religious faith.”

All laws are premised on “unknowable philosophical assumptions.” You demonstrate this ably when asked to defend public nudity statutes you come up with the (hilarious justification) of “sexual harassment”. You then let that sleeping dog lie – obviously because you know public disapproval legitimately expressed through democratic action is enough to justify all such laws.

“There is no way to cut through this Gordian knot.”
Sure there is. If democratic action upholds those concepts deeply rooted in our laws & traditions then they are legitimate. If on the other hand you can convince a majority of your fellow citizens that such laws are actually “unreasonable” and should be abandon – then they will be repealed.

It’s telling that the cultural left can appeal to nothing more than judicial fiat and a bland “historicism” to justify thir law breaking.

“That, of course, is fine, but it should be done in the pulpits and not in the legislature or the courts.”

Were all very happy that the Rev Martin Luther King, the abolitionists, or the anti-eugenicists failed to recognize your (mythical) Iron Curtain between Church & State.

You wish. It is not our religious belief but rather the common good and our countries collective legal heritage.

Fitz, you are simply wrong. If our country's collective legal heritage was Islam or Paganism, you would be fighting tooth and nail not to be forced to practice things that you don't believe in and which are not supported by a showing of secular harm.

But since your religion coincides with that of the majority (and-- to some extent-- with the religion of some of this country's earlier leaders), you have no problem with the government coming in and putting its thumb on your side of the scale.

All laws are premised on “unknowable philosophical assumptions.”

No, Fitz, they aren't. You are misusing the work of atheist and skeptical philosophers to make this claim. If you want to renounce your religion, then you can tell us how there is no absolute truth. Until then, stop trying to have things both ways.

Were all very happy that the Rev Martin Luther King, the abolitionists, or the anti-eugenicists failed to recognize your (mythical) Iron Curtain between Church & State.

You act as if the only argument for racial equality is religious.

Dilan,

The belief in racial equality is an unprovable moral axiom as much as the belief that, say, men and women are different in essence. I happen to agree with it, as do you. But no one can _prove_ that racial equality is good, any more than they can _prove_ that the sexual norm should be between a man and a woman.

There is no possibility of arriving at a moral and legal code for society that seeks to ignore or bracket basic moral questions as to the nature of the human spirit and our place in the universe.

Debates over economics and the environment and racial equality, at bottom, are just as much about transcendental moral questions as the homosexual question. Your opinion about economics, for example, is largely going to rest on whether you believe that there is something of inherent value about human labor, that our essential identity is expressed in part through our labor power, and that therefore anything that separates the laborer from the control and fruit of his labor is essentially unnatural. If you accept those propositions then you are necessarily going to gravitate to some kind of Left-wing economic vision, and if you don't then you are going to be a capitalist. But that question whether there is, or is not, something inherently special and important about human labor, is essentially a transcendental one that can't be proved one way or the other by the metric of utilitarian benefit or harm. You either accept it or not. And so it goes with homosexuality.

Hector

Well put. Moral thinkers both secular & theological saw the question posed by Marx as "Is it ethical for a man to profit from the labor of another"