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What Obama Really Got Wrong

15 Apr 2008 12:50 pm

Timothy Noah, surveying the literature on the white working class and its voting behavior in the wake of Obama's San Francisco fiasco, tiptoes close to an important point about the roots of culture-war politics but doesn't quite get there. Citing a fascinating new paper by Ruy Teixeira and Alan Abramowitz, he writes:

Although [Teixeira and Abramowitz] found working-class whites more likely to oppose abortion than upper-class whites ... the working-class whites were far less likely than upper-class whites to abandon the Democrats over the abortion issue. Only 57 percent working-class whites opposed to abortion identified with the GOP, compared with 92 percent of upper-class whites opposed to abortion. Abramowitz and Teixeira also lean toward the DLC and away from [Thomas] Frank on the question of whether economic populism can save the Democrats, mainly because working-class Americans, like Americans as a whole, tend to harbor unrealistically grim notions about how bad life is for everyone else while simultaneously harboring unrealistically sunny notions about how good life is for themselves ... "The white working class today is an aspirational class," they write, "not a downtrodden one." In promoting economic security, they conclude, Democrats would do best to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, and don't mess with Mr. In-Between.

Obama, being a quick study, will note that none of these theories suggests that it's ever a good idea to tell a person whose vote you want that you find him "bitter." But the bitterest people, these studies suggest, aren't the proles. They're the very ones who, judging by economic circumstances, have the least to be bitter about.

Okay, but let's push this analysis a bit further. If well-educated voters are more likely to base their party ID on culture-war issues than are voters without college degrees, then what's happening within the non-college educated contingent? Which working-class voters are most likely to base their party ID on culture-war issues? Well, given that the working class has trended away from the Democratic Party overall, even as - pace Thomas Frank - the relationship between party affiliation and income has grown stronger, not weaker, it seems like it's the more prosperous members of the working class who are responding to culture-war issues and trending GOPward. (And yes, much of the working class has grown more prosperous during the long GOP ascendancy, contrary to what you may have heard.) In other words, both within the no-college/some-college demographic and in the country as a whole, the Obama line has it exactly backward: Voting on issues like "God, guns and gays" is an artifact of (relative) prosperity, not immiseration.

Now why would prosperity make people "bitter"? One can spin all sorts of theories on this front, but the most plausible answer is that it doesn't, and that embittered, troglodytic reaction is simply the wrong lens through which to view the culture war. The right lens - or so Reihan and I argue - is the lens of rational self-interest, albeit self-interest considered with greater nuance than Thomas Frank (or Barack Obama, apparently) is willing to apply to it. In this reading of the culture wars, middle-income voters privilege culture over economics because they perceive the breakdown of "traditional values" - manifested in everything from divorce, marriage and out-of-wedlock birth rates to what's shown on television and taught in schools - as a greater danger to their well-being than, say, the specter of outsourcing or the spike in CEO salaries. In a robust economy, most Americans - yes, even most blue-collar Americans - feel like they can control their own economic destiny; even now, on the cusp of a recession, huge majorities of American will say their own financial outlook is relatively rosy. Which means that their worries, not implausibly, turn to sociological and cultural questions. Are my streets safe at night, and will my neighborhood still be a good place to raise a family in ten years? What are my kids watching on TV, or being taught in school? Will my daughter's marriage break up, and will my son do the right thing by his girlfriend if he gets her pregnant? And, more broadly - does my government reflect and promote my values, whether in marriage law or welfare policy or what-have-you?

Now, some of these concerns are beyond the ability of any politics to solve, and prioritizing the social issues over a stronger safety net doesn't require voting for the GOP. One can argue, plausibly, that the Republican Party's response to these cultural anxieties of late has been insufficient or misguided, more concerned with finding scapegoats than solutions, and that the country needs a pro-family agenda that goes deeper than opposing gay marriage. But Obama didn't make an argument along these lines. Instead, he said something that wasn't just politically dumb - it was analytically dumb, as well. And that, pace Ezra and Andrew and sundry others, is why these comments matter: Because they suggest that Barack Obama buys into a narrative of American politics, and American life, that simply isn't true.

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Comments (61)

Is this a joke? Obama never criticizes Republicans on families, education, neighborhoods etc.?

do you feel like you might have some kind of responsibility to consider the entirety of Obama's position, rather than a single sentence? That'd be great.

Keep in mind that Obama wasn't speaking about working class voters in general, he was talking specifically about working class voters in small town Pennsylvania where the market for skilled labor has shrunk substantially in the last 25 years or so. In that demographic, I DO think you see a fair amount of bitterness and troglodytic, reactionary impulses on issues related to guns, gays, and so forth. Whether there is a cause and effect relationship underneath all of that is up for debate.

I think there's something to be said for both yours and his analyses, though.

Jeff:
You are right!! I wonder if Ross has ever been to the former coal country in northeastern PA. It's not a pretty sight. It's one of those places that if you are able to leave and go to college, you don't come back(meaning go back home looking for non-existent jobs ... you still go back home to visit the parents).

MrDouthat states that "much of the working class has grown more prosperous during the long GOP ascendancy" but apparently someone should tell the actual working class this wonderful news. Granted that more SUVs and flat screens decorate our lives still those recalcitrant working class yokels tell polling professionals that they're falling back. A very superficial googling revealed the following:

"...it's about achieving the basics of middle class comfort and security: A good job, owning a home, a secure retirement, quality and affordable health care and a better life for their children....American workers feel the American Dream slipping away." Lake Research Partners 2006

"Consumer sentiment continued downward trend....Steep decline in future expectations."
AP/Ipsos 7Mar08

"Fewer Americans now than at any time in the past half century believe they are moving forward in life." Pew Survey 9Apr08

This is worrisome to thinking people because there is never a shortage of spokesmen willing to find the villian. If you can't project a better life for your children you can protect them from the GayAgenda. If you can't find a job after the plant closes down you can send the illegals home.

Such scapegoating has in other times and places been unhealthy for advanced, educated nations. (Godwin's rule prohibits me from naming names.)

We on the left do not think this is a difficult argument to grasp or even debatable. Of course Mr Douthat spins a very long entry of--essentially--smoke (or another word beginning with 's') that makes all this seem deep and mysterious. He plays us for fools. The simple fact is that after the long GOP ascendancy there is one good reason to vote Republican: You think the rich are not yet rich enough.

My two cents:

It just seems like Ross and Hillary for that matter are more interested in what adjective you use to describe working class people instead of delving into the deeper issues that Obama's comments provoke. Do people turn to religion in a time of economic hardship? Yes of course they do, if anything else religion is a support system for many people. Why is that such an elitist remark? Ross writes: "even now, on the cusp of a recession, huge majorities of American will say their own financial outlook is relatively rosy". Yeah, going to needs some evidence for this big guy. At a time when most polls show that the American people believe that the country is heading in the wrong direction, and most Americans believe that we are in a recession, Ross' statement is mind numbingly stupid. Just because I say people feel rosy, doesn't mean that they do, hell I can say pigs are purple, but that doesn't make it so. I think Ross should think twice, or at least interview these "working class" people he loves to project his own values on, before he calls someone statements "analytically dumb"

Wait a minute, those inbred country fools don’t have any meritorious deeply held values. Just as soon as the those stupid hicks get an injection of Obama’s transformative groove, and his promised government hand-outs, they’ll lose their ignorant crutches (religion, guns, closed borders) and adopt the Huffington Post canon. Once they drop the shackles of ignorant bitterness, and accept the opinions we tell them to, those morons will graduate into full Yuppie Whiteness.

"It just seems like Ross and Hillary for that matter are more interested in what adjective you use to describe working class people...

I would say just the opposite. This is a serious attempt by a conservative commentator to address the thesis of Obama's comments, not to get in a tizzy about whether people will think he is an elitist or not.

As a liberal Obama partisan, I agree that Douthat's own theory, backed up by no data (in this post - presumably he has some), is not compelling to me... but I have to give him props for advancing an actual debate and not the typical inanity.

Thank you, Ross. You are asking the right question -- is what Obama said true? (Or is it, merely a liberal truism).

For me, the part of his statement, a matter of unquestioned belief by much of the liberal intelligensia, that is most disturbing and requires the most reexamination is the association of "hard times" with bigotry and xenophobia. This is an old liberal chestnut-- that bigotry is most explained by class and lower economic statue -- but is it true?

it seems obvious that institutionalized racism can only exist because of the efforts of those who hold institutional power -- and that is not the working class.

So they hate gays and blacks because they can afford to? I get it now.

Douthat: The Iraq war does not exist... the Iraq war does not exist... the Iraq war does not exist... the Iraq war does not exist...bzzt...repeat transmission....

Interesting analysis, Ross, but I think you contradict yourself. You say that middle-class people voting Republican on cultural issues are following their rational self-interest, but then acknowledge the argument (which, I believe, is supported by data) that the GOP hasn't done any better than the Democrats in advancing solutions to the problems of crime, drug use, unwanted pregnancies, illegitimacy, divorce, general moral decay, etc. Ostensibly if the people voting on these issues really cared about them, they'd be paying attention to the results (e.g., falling crime, drug use, and abortions under Clinton) and voting accordingly, right? To the extent that they're not voting that way, I think that provides support to a charitable reading of Obama's remarks: Middle-class white people are mad at government because neither party has demonstrated an honest commitment to taking the steps necessary to improve their economic and social welfare; they become discouraged with the political process and determine that there's no substantial difference between the parties in terms of tangible results; and so they often end up voting for emotional rather than rational reasons, i.e., they vote for the party that tells them loudly that the other party is a bunch of elitists that hate hunting and Christianity and care more about minorities and gays and poor people than about them.

Ross, this is a very smart, and even pretty original, take on an important question. I don't find it entirely persuasive, because you strike me as being overly sanguine about economic conditions in America today; I don't think you pay enough attention to how the recession that we may well already be in is arguably coming down just as hard--if not harder--on exactly those upwardly mobile individuals within the "no-college/some-college demographic": they are the ones who are most likely to lose their homes in the mortgage crisis, after all, since they are the ones who wagered on heavier mortgages to get into better neighborhoods with better schools. The analysis which suggests a merging of economic concerns and a devotion to those cultural/social/religious things you most want to count on thus certainly applies to them as well. But still, good work; you've given me something to think about. If I hadn't already have updated my Obama post, I'd have thrown your excellent points in there as well.

"And that, pace Ezra and Andrew and sundry others, is why these comments matter: Because they suggest that Barack Obama buys into a narrative of American politics, and American life, that simply isn't true."

Maybe that's why the comments matter, but let me ask this: is Obama's narrative of American politics and American life any less true than that of Bush, Clinton or McCain. I think not. Since I doubt there is one true narrative of American politics or life, every politician gets parts of it right and parts of it wrong, generally for their own perceived advantage. The real question would seem to be: if Obama is wrong on this piece of the narrative, would that really matter if he is elected president? Personally, I'd rather have him get this piece of the narrative wrong than much of McCain's narrative about Iraq or the economy.

Jeff and JK'sC - I'm pretty much in agreement with you two. I'm originally from Erie, PA. I left town for college and haven't gone back. The economics of the region has been hard for a long, long time. For decades we've had politicians - both national and local - promising to "do something" about it. But we never saw any results. The "something" that never seemes to get done is always some pie-in-the-sky project that never materializes, or somebody embezzles the money and runs off, or a bill that gets held up in state legislature, or Congressional funding that never seems to figure out there's more to Pennsylvania than the Philadelphia area.

People have gotten used to the idea that politicians literally cannot do anything about the economy, crime, or other actual policy things that politicians are supposed to be taking care of. The thinking goes something like, "It really doesn't matter what Senator Smith or Congressman Jones says he's going to do, nothing's going to change." This line of thinking is wrong, but understandable; people have had decades of experience that supports the notion.

People who follow politics might vote on ideology. But for the majority of people who don't follow it closely? In the absence of any real difference on policy, the only thing left to choose between candidates is culture. Is Senator Smith somebody I'd have a beer with? Does Councilman Polakowski attend St. Stanislaus every weekend? Does Congressman Jones have a flag lapel pin? The kind of thing that really has nothing to do with quality of governance really is the only way people have of determining who to vote for.

I've always thought that Thomas Frank is a clueless, elitist tool; likewise all those lads at the Rockridge Institute, devotees all of that "framing" guru from UC Berkeley.

I watched most of the Sunday talk shows, and why is it, when our politicians and pundits speak of guns, do they never bring up the most obvious reason why people value gun-ownership? It's not hunting, you know.

See here, for example:

"Gun ownership is lower (17%) among people in low-income households (less than $15,000 income) and higher in households with incomes between $35,000 and $50,000 (47%) and between $50,001 and $75,000 (51%)."

Also, "People aged between 25 and 64 are more likely to own guns than those aged 18-24 or 65 and over. Only 19% of those aged 18-24 own guns."

Seems to me that gun ownership has more to do with protecting family and property than bitterness over economic hardship.

The other issue Obama raised -- i.e. the frequency/intensity of religious activity -- is, yes, likely correlated with perceptions of uncertainty. But in the broader sense, rather than the narrower sense: existential Uncertainty, with a capital-u, rather than economic uncertainty in lower-case (they are, of course, often coincidental).

Ross I'd recommend glancing over Frank's reply to the Bartels study you link to:

http://www.tcfrank.com/dismissd.pdf

Bartels defines the working class as the bottom third of the income distribution, which is a really bad take on the data (for 1, most of that group aren't working - hence, not working class). There is a drift outward from the "working-class" in Ruy's study and what you allude to later, I think.

I think it is a canard to frame the anger among the working class as being encompassed by "Are my children safe?" Safe from what, might be the next question....

Many commenters seem to think government has an obligation "to make everything right for everybody all the time". As my GF used to say, horses**t! My ancestors left Sctoland for Ireland b/c of bad economic conditions. Then they left Ireland and came here b/c of bad econmoic conditions. Over time they left various parts of America for other parts with more promise. The government cannot control economic conditions of open and free markets any more than you can control a cat. Dynamic markets and economies change and develop, and if you can't keep up, retrain and move or choose to stay put--many of my own people have & they live at a level of happiness that they have chosen for themselves. 300 years of people doing just that tells me I am the master of my own fate, and I have no intention of turning it over to the government or any other nanny to screw up. But if I fail, I have myself to blame and u wont hear me crying about how its the gummints fault. Like Skynnrd says, "You will not hear me cry because I do not sing the blues". Take ownership of your own success, then give as much back for the unfortunate as you can, and you'll find a level of happiness, not bitterness, equal to what you are willing to put into it. Happiness & bitterness have far less to do with economics than with whats inside a persons own soul. There are rich people angry and bitter as hell, and poor folks happier than a dog in a sausage factory.

Safe from what, might be the next question.

Safe from violation by other humans.*

I have the utmost respect for our species, and the strongest desire to see my wife and children grow old. Accordingly, I own a gun.

It's taken for granted on the left that the working class shifts rightward and starts to obsess over social issues when the economy is weak. They've got it backward! The working class turns to the Democrats when they're worried about the economy. It's precisely when the economy is STRONG that the working class can relax and then say, "NOW then, what's this about flag burning/gays in the Army/abortion/whatever?"

Is it possible we are overanalyzing this issue?

Let's posit that there are a bunch of lower-income, socially conservative voters out there. They are not represented in full by either party's platform. On ideological graphs, they fall in the "populist" quadrant, i.e., opposed to the "libertarians". Conservative on social issues, liberal on economic issues.

So, based on preference intensity, which can change over time based on how economically anxious they are and how off the rails they feel the culture has gone, they can either vote for the Democrats because they want to do something about their economic concerns, or for the Republicans because they want to do something about their cultural concerns.

Obama's remark, if it was a gaffe (I tend to think it was way overblown), would have been a gaffe because dismissing the cultural concerns of these "populists" make them less likely to vote for Obama and more likely to vote for Republicans or perhaps Hillary Clinton who are seen as sharing those concerns.

But it doesn't seem to me to be about anything more than that.

Re: And yes, much of the working class has grown more prosperous during the long GOP ascendancy, contrary to what you may have heard.)

Please document this, since if it applies to the last few years it's simpy absurd. Most of the gains of the last few years have gone to the top, and even over the last generation or so, the gains have mainly gone to people with college educations or above-- not to working class folks. To the extent that working class people did any better their gains came in the 90s when (that's right) a Democrat was in the White House. And anyone, GOP or Democrat, who thinks this is the year to be running a "Morning in America, everything's coming up roses" campaign has been isolated in some remote Tibetan hermitage, without benefit of newspapers. Yes, you shouldn't tell people they are bitter or that you want to help them because they're a bunch of losers. But you also shouldn't tell them things are just peachy-keen when they damn well know better.

I would also like to how know how culture-war attitudes represent voters looking after their own self-interest. To the extent one can derive self-interests in the matter of abortion, they weigh in on the pro-Choice side: abortion is a useful solution for guys who get women pregnant and don't want child support payments, for women who don't want children, for parents who don't want too-early grandchildren, for taxpayers who want to keep welfare in check, and (per Freakonomics) as a crime-prevention measure. I am not approving of those arguments, but I sure can't come up with any on the pro-Life side.
And when it comes to gay marriage and other gay issues, I fail to see any self interest (assuming we are talking about rational, enlightened self interest). Jim and Bob getting married picks no one's pocket and breaks no one's leg.
Ditto for a lot of the church-state conflicts, from evolution, to prayer in school, to Christmas creches on public lands. Whatever you think of those issues and wherever you fall on them, I can't see how it's benefitting you in any realistic, tangible way (not just "feel good" benefit) to hold those views.

I am not approving of those arguments, but I sure can't come up with any on the pro-Life side.

Strange of me to do this (because I am pro-choice and definitely not a natalist), but there are certainly self-interested natalist arguments for the pro-life position, JonF. If one believes that we need to increase the birth rate, either to have enough people around to pay for our needs when we are older and out of the workforce, or because of cultural arguments about the composition of the population, the pro-life position certainly could be argued to serve those ends.

i think the reasoning is close to but not quite there. the reason that working class people want to give tax breaks to the rich is because they think they will be rich one day. That's the american dream after all, and it's every american's right to dream it.

obama doesn't understand this dream. He thinks that the poor are in misery and fully aware of their problems. not so. the poor think that one day they'll hit it rich, one day they'll be a famous movie star, you name it. So when these polls come out saying how are you doing, there is invariably this incredible optimism because basically we americans believe in the american dream.

Obama's tragic mistake is killing the dream. He's a big downer. Of course the reality is the rich are getting richer, and the poor get poorer, the jobs are all getting outsourced, but you don't kill the dream. That's dumb. and that's what obama did, he gave voice to this idea that, if you are poor you are screwed. Which is true. If you are poor, or working class, 99% of the time you are screwed.

Ah, but what about that 1%? What about the dream. That's what we all live for you know. And that's why working class people pull the level to give tax breaks for rich people, because they think, "One day, one day, it'll be me."

I think this proves Obama is definitely out of touch of the working class. He reads a lot of books about what they do but he doesn't understand deep down that everyone really does have the american dream, and you can't go there, you can't screw with the american dream.

That's what he did. He tried to kill the dream. Doesn't matter if what he said is true false his real feelings or a mistake, you can't kill the dream. That's just not right.

Yes, Obama thinks he is holier than... In fact he wants a CORONATION NOT AN ELECTION.

Yes, Obama thinks he is holier than... In fact he wants a CORONATION NOT AN ELECTION.

Sandra - using all caps does not make it so

Ross - it's more complex than this. Age cohort, employment history, and geography are hugely important to sense of economic well-being.

Also - as you probably know (Pippa Norris?), party identification was long the most significant indicator of vote choice - and the de-alignment/realignment in partisan attachment, also being strongly related to age cohort and geography, suggests that "cultural" issues have become more significant concomitant with broader political and social changes. It's pretty much indisputable that 'communities' of faith or ideology have largely supplanted older partisan indicators, and the groups that have de-aligned most (low-information, middle income voters) have been at the core of the shift. In this sense, Obama's not wrong, he's just interpreting the data following a classic progressive argument on the normative value of such a shift (ie. an objective v. subjective interests argument).

Regardless, the media storm surrounding his remarks (which were meant for donor consumption, and thus were as simplistic as one imagines necessity would demand) is utterly insulting to the intelligence of any seriously-minded observer.

Dilan is right about natalist arguments against abortion. One can see good arguments for countries like Spain and Russia*, for example, moving to limit abortion on natalist grounds as well as moral ones. I'm sure there are also guys out there who would like to have a child with their girlfriend so that then she will have to marry them. (Although that wouldn't necessarily be best described as 'rational self interest'.) People are for or against issues for all kinds of reasons, some good, some bad. By the same logic of course many people are pro-choice for some truly despicable reasons, as we all know.

It's also true of course that when people's basic economic needs are satisfied, they are free to start thinking about issues beyond the simply economic. George Orwell said once that it was a mistake to think that once we have food enough for everyone, strife and conflict will cease. On the contrary, it's when everyone has enough food, and can think of something other than hunger, that they start fighting about the meaning-of-life questions which are of course much more difficult to solve. In this light it's not surprising that in a country like the United States, which for all its faults and all its evils has managed to reduce to a minimum starvation and destitution within its borders, that the 'culture war' issues should be playing a larger role.

*Russia, thank God, appears to have passed its nadir of low birth rates; the birth rate is slowly rising and is expected to reach replacement level in about 15 years.

The entire issue is being over-analyzed and given too much credit for voting patterns. The 2006 elections clearly demonstrated that when Americans get fed up they are willing to boot out an entire political party, regardless of how they feel about individual candidates or what their views are on social issues.

While there are those who may enter a voting booth to elect someone who is pro- or anti-abortion, the majority of folks, even those with a limited education, base their choices on issues related to the economy, war and peace and the personal connections and affinities they feel they have with candidates. Everything else is just noise for the chattering classes and political consultants.

If people are feeling prosperous and have optimism about the future then incumbents will be re-elected. If the opposite is true they will seriously consider the positions of those running and attempt to assess who can best deliver prosperity and a brighter future.

These are simple, common sense views most Americans have. They may be misled into believing that free trade, for example, is at the root of problems related to creating new jobs or maintaining once solid industries, but they vote for the candidates they believe can deliver the basic goods that make for a decent life.

It just ain't that complicated.

Another fun thing coming at Obama that the MSM hasn't run yet is the same bloggger published an earlier piece APR 7th about another remark by Obama at a (separate?) San Fran Dem Wealthy Elite fundraiser.

Before that, Fowler had turned in a piece which ran April 7th and caused a ripple, with Obama telling the San Francisco fundraiser crowd that he doesn't need a foreign policy expert as his running mate because he already knows a lot about foreign policy. Huffington, who was about to leave for Tahiti, was concerned about that piece, which had no political impact other than pointing up Obama's cockiness.

This is a guy that still maintains that because he gave an anti-war speech 6 years ago, saying the same basic things other Lefties ideologically opposed to Iraq said - like Susan Sarandon, Teddy Kennedy, Fidel Castro, Vladimir Putin, and Saddam himself - Obama is a foreign policy genius of the highest judgment.
And he says his in-depth knowlege comes from being an expat kid for a while, his undergrad degree in International Relations, and being in contact with Muslim relatives in Indonesia and Kenya.

Clinton may be a liar, McCain may be old, but Obama appears mildy delusional and full of himself.

Once again Ross puts on his GOP-manure-salesman hat with his crap about Obama's so-called "fiasco" - despite a complete lack of evidence that this has been anything but one big media/party hack fart.

It's all a little pathetic, and this time he even weighs in at least a day late.

Don't you have anything better to do, Ross?


You're an interesting writer -- one of very few on today's right -- but if I catch you using "privilege" as a verb again, I'm going to petition your editor to send you to bed without supper.

Re: If one believes that we need to increase the birth rate, either to have enough people around to pay for our needs when we are older and out of the workforce, or because of cultural arguments about the composition of the population, the pro-life position certainly could be argued to serve those ends.

Odd, indeed, but we are actually arguing different sides from what our political beliefs are! Still, the natalist argument collapses in face of the fact that aborted children are almost always unwanted children (the exceptions being in truly tragic cases involving serious medical problems). Those kids would be less likely to grow up to be high-earning, productive members of society, and more likely to be a burden on the rest of us. I've even heard this argument framed very crudely by a close family member who opined that he wished the GOP would just get over opposition to abortion because it was the best way in the world to ensure that we'd have fewer "welfare brats" and "little thugs".

Re: I'm sure there are also guys out there who would like to have a child with their girlfriend so that then she will have to marry them.

Doesn't that usually work the other way around? The woman gets pregnant so that her (hopefully) honorable boyfriend will marry her, or at least stick with her?

Re: Russia, thank God, appears to have passed its nadir of low birth rates; the birth rate is slowly rising and is expected to reach replacement level in about 15 years.

That's good news indeed. If Russia can recover, maybe there's hope for the rest of Europe. Any word about any improvements in Russia's appalling (by Western standards) death rate? Russi'as demographic woes were as much a function of too many deaths as of too few births.

JonF,

Well, I don't think that simply being 'unwanted' means that someone is not going to contribute to society. Particularly is society and the state do their job to help the mother out, and if she and the father decide to do their best to raise the child with love, that child may grow up to do great things.

Re: Doesn't that usually work the other way around?

No doubt it does, statistically, but there are all sorts of people in the world, and that includes some flighty girls and some guys who believe they've found the love of their lives and would like to marry her. I'm sure it happens, don't know how often.

As for the rising Russian birthrate, that statistic did come from the Russian government, so take it with a grain of salt. Nevertheless I don't think they just made it up out of whole cloth. They claim that the death rate (which was truly terrible) is falling too so that by 2020 the population decline will level off and start to reverse by 2025. It's also not clear from the article how much of the birth rate is due to Muslim minorities (Tatars, Circassians, etc.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

I'd actually be more concerned about a country like Germany or Spain with respect to its birth rate. Russia, I think, has an intense sense of its mission in the world and national purpose, which would tend to make them not want to let their nation decline in population.

Obama....the boy who put the 'ninny' back in 'pickaninny'.

The bastard child of Steve Sailer and Ann Coulter writes: "Obama....the boy who put the 'ninny' back in 'pickaninny'."

You're just upset because your sister married your older brother and she won't take your phone calls any more.

The problem to me with this thesis is that the kind of people Obama is discussing have never liked immigration, have been racist, have long loved their guns, hated gays and long loved their churches. The reason why IMO things have changed is that these were not issues back when these people voted Democrat in large numbers. If JFK had threatened to take away their guns, bus their kids across town and have gay marriage, these people would have fled the party in droves instead of the more gradual departure the party has witnessed.

This discussion just strikes me as odd. Like racist and nativist attitudes completely vanish with economic upswings.

Iraqi born Rezko is Obama’s friend of 17 years and a well known mob figure.

Rezko served on Obama’s U.S. Senate campaign finance committee and raised more than $14 million, according to Federal Election Commission records, helping send Obama to Washington in 2004.

The Chicago Sun Times reports: ‘state senator Barack Obama wrote letters to city and state officials supporting his political patron Tony Rezko's successful bid to get more than $14M from taxpayers to build apartments’.

Obama told the Chicago Tribune that, in all the years he's known Rezko, "I've never done any favors for him.''

How does Obama get away with this? Where is the media on this unbelievable topic?

Obama has been a disappointment since Wright. I held judgement but then there was Wright and now there is the very boring Marxist explanation of human behavior. They do not vote for me because of their economic condition which drives the masses toward anti-social behavior in what we all know should be the perfect statist society. UGH!
All this in front of a gaggle of SF gouls and knowing the press wouldn't be present. ( How professorial)
Ever been to a ghost town? A lot of them are deserted because the railroad did not choose to route the trains through there. People moved. We have a town in Washington State named Union. They thought (errouneously) that it would entice the Union railroad to go through their town. It didn't. They still go to church and have guns and are angry about the illegals and drugs that have come into their small town.
Question. Should the president have made the Union RR go through the town so the families didn't turn to church, guns, and anti-immigrants?
Bottomline, the small towns don't like Obama. Hollywood, MSM, rich, and students do. Ask McGovern if that works.
Consider it "The Revenge of the Nerds".

OF COURSE, a larger share of upper class white voters opposed to abortion will associate with the GOP than the share of working class white voters. Upper class voters also have an economic incentive to vote with teh GOP in addition to abortion/social issues! What Frank is arguing is that the majority (ie 57% according to Teixeira) of working class voters who are against abortion are voting AGAINST their economic interests - ie the Democratic party. ie for 57% of working class people who oppose abortion, social issues trump economic issues. Frank's argument is saying that is losing this large chunk of a constituency which should be theirs is why Democrats are losing. And the appropriate comparison is with upper class whites who favor abortion and identify with the Democratic party AGAINST their economic interests.

OF COURSE, a larger share of upper class white voters opposed to abortion will associate with the GOP than the share of working class white voters. Upper class voters also have an economic incentive to vote with teh GOP in addition to abortion/social issues! What Frank is arguing is that the majority (ie 57% according to Teixeira) of working class voters who are against abortion are voting AGAINST their economic interests - ie the Democratic party. ie for 57% of working class people who oppose abortion, social issues trump economic issues. Frank's argument is saying that is losing this large chunk of a constituency which should be theirs is why Democrats are losing. And the appropriate comparison is with upper class whites who favor abortion and identify with the Democratic party AGAINST their economic interests.

Protectionist policies ...
Higher taxes ...
More Regulation ...

Yeah, the Democrates have the ideas to improve the economy ... its just folks are too stupid to see that ...

Or it could be because Democrates are tied to the failing special interests of unions and lawyers and have nothing to offer anyone but a handout ... not exactly what middle class Americans are looking for from the Federal Govt.

In a robust economy, most Americans - yes, even most blue-collar Americans - feel like they can control their own economic destiny; even now, on the cusp of a recession, huge majorities of American will say their own financial outlook is relatively rosy

Ross, you are living in a tight little bubble made out of smugness and self-satisfaction, derived from the fact that you are not unemployed, not on welfare or using a food pantry, not being evicted from your apartment because you can't pay the rent or having the bank foreclose on your home. You haven't been looking for work unsuccessfully for an entire year. You haven't been laid off from any part-time jobs because there was no work. You haven't gotten a shut-off notice from your utilities company. Your car is not about to be repossessed.

Nevertheless, all of these things and more are happening to millions of Americans. This is NOT a "robust economy," Ross. We are not "on the cusp" of a recession; we are IN a recession -- one that is getting steadily worse; indeed, one that is so far from having gotten as bad as it's going to get that we can't even see the bottom yet. YOU feel in control of your economic destiny, Ross, because clearly you ARE. Don't make the mistake of believing that everyone else is, as well, because you couldn't be more wrong. For god's sake, man, open your goddamn eyes and ears and start using them. There are massive amounts of misery and despair and stress and terror, related to the economy, all around you. Wake up from your sweet dream and smell the muddy coffee.

Obama is two faced and an undercover radical; at least for the last 20 years!

Obama is two faced and an undercover black radical; at least for the last 20 years and I am a black woman!!!! Wake up America!!!

After reading a few hundred responses to the various columns on Barak's bitter rant I find it striking that both proponents and detractors seem to believe that everyone who votes places (or should place) their immediate self interest above every other possible consideration. Admittedly we live in an egocentric time. But I know many people who regularly are able to place the interests of others ahead of their own. I know people who regularly place their principles ahead of opportunities for personal gain.

In fact, there was a time when we were taught that consideration of the needs of others was one of the highest human virtues. It would appear now that, in the heat of a trivial presidential campaign, many of us assume that the only basis on which our citizens make decisions is (or should be) the maximization of their immediate personal interests. How incredibly sad.

But the good news is that there are still many people who have a sufficient measure of humility, decency and honor to balance the reasonable interests of others against their own interests. It is a crying shame that some of our leaders-to-be do not seem to identify with these truly remarkable people.

While far from perfect, maybe even far from being qualified to be president, one candidate actually rejected an opportunity to be freed from a POW camp to stand by his mates. In the current context it is hard to explain this as being any more rational than the things that Obama suggested were were irrational choices (clinging to religion, gun rights and other social issues) when set next to the "rational choices" that he was offering.

But Kathy don't you realize that the people in those dire circumstances have only themselves to blame - therefore we can simply dismiss their suffering and struggles. It means nothing to those of us sitting comfortably in our non-foreclosed homes pondering the elitism of Obama.

Ross, you read way too much into a compressed, off-the-cuff, literally one sentence long remark. You should read Obama's book The Audacity of Hope instead. Then you come back informed about the "narrative of American politics, and American life," which Obama is actually making. Is actually reading the book where Obama lays out his political philosophy in detail too much to ask from someone who continuously pontificates on that very subject?

I'd bet my house that MLandJ posted that 9:32PM comment.

Derek Muttonhead says: "I'd bet my house that MLandJ posted that 9:32PM comment."

Then you'd lose your house. Such as it is.

Who faked the George Allen comments? Who faked the Geoff Davis ones?

No one needs to bother with faking moronic yahoo Bushpig statements - this country has no shortgae of ignorant racist fools who worship at the altar of Saint Reagan.

I think Obama might have been considering his rival Clinton.

What you cite shows that working class whites remain in the Democratic Party regardless of their social conservatism. However what it does not show is that they will vote for the Democrat most favorable to academia or Leahy.

Basically I think he may have been directing his statements at Conservative Democrats as they have, by and large, not embraced Obama. Many Obama supporters see a failure to embrace him as a sign of emotional problems or bigotries. (And many Obama opponents feel likewise about what supporting him means) Pennsylvania in particular has many Conservative Catholic Democrats. Catholic Democrats are another group going for Hillary more than average.

His somewhat consistent failure with Conservative White Democrats might be frustrating him so he felt the need to consider an explanation. So far he seems to have said certain working-class whites become Conservative Democrats because of bitterness. They would be progressive like him if they had better jobs. I'm thinking it doesn't necessarily have to do with them becoming Republicans or not.

If this theory has been mentioned already, apologies.

I don't understand why we need a pro-family agenda. Is a population of 6.5 billion on the planet somehow insufficient? Maybe we need an anti-family policies for a while, no?

But Kathy don't you realize that the people in those dire circumstances have only themselves to blame - therefore we can simply dismiss their suffering and struggles.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that.

In fact, there was a time when we were taught that consideration of the needs of others was one of the highest human virtues. It would appear now that, in the heat of a trivial presidential campaign, many of us assume that the only basis on which our citizens make decisions is (or should be) the maximization of their immediate personal interests. How incredibly sad.

Actually, in the case of Americans living in economically depressed areas (or maybe I should say, *particularly* economically depressed areas), those citizens are NOT making decisions based on their personal interests. That was Obama's whole point. They have long since given up on either of the two major parties ever paying attention to their economic interests, so they settle for what they can get: the social conservative agenda.

ok, if we're being oh so rational - on in what unit is your metric expressed? Labor-theory of "value" as a unit of personal right to property measured in a currency that has lost half its purchasing power in global markets in the last 2 decades? Or marginal cost "value" as a unit of personal right to liberty to negotiate a subjective market price for an agency of virtue?

The labor-theory of value derived by Smith (then subsequently embraced by Marx with such disastrous consequences for private property rights) is inimical to a subjective agency value -- Exhibit 1: state-mandated starvation and dehydration of Terri Schaivo , where her birth family was willing to take upon themselves the financial burden, expense and sacrifice of caring for her but the State decided her husband right to kill her rather than divorce her took precedent.

mr don - I think you've made an important point.

No one is surprised that upper class voters in SF or Beverly Hillls vote against their own economic interests in order to advance moral and social agendas. I personally know lots of very affluent folks who would happily pay higher taxes if that's what it takes to ensure that teenage girls can screw around and get abortions on demand. I think Obama views this kind of voting behavior as admirable, even altruistic.

But when working class people vote against their own economic interests (assuming, arguendo, that advancing the welfare state via higher tax-and-spending policies would be more in their interests than low tax, pro-growth policies) in order to advance their own moral and social agendas, that's considered, by most liberals at least, to be inexplicable except as the product of, well, bitterness and manipulation. Those working class voters are dupes and fools is the common trope on the left.

Obama's mistake, then, was to repeat this commonly held view, that working class voters are too stupid to know their own interests. It's not suprising that they are offended by this.

But I think you are right - both the working class voters who pull the lever for socially consersative candidates, and the upper class voters who vote for abortion-on-demand candidates, are making intelligent, and in some ways altruistic, choices that deserve respect not sneers.

DBL: I'll go with you part of the way, but not to accede to your subjective point of view but to illustrate the absolute truth: "... I think you are right - both the working class voters ...and the upper class voter.... are making intelligent ... altruistic, choices"
so far so good - its a free country right?

Wrong! What basis for ascertaining the options in their choices on offer, when State tyranny proscribes arbitrary juridical and economic terms to one's liberty? Until the electorate takes time out of its busy 'pursuit of happiness' to be satisfied instead with being' happy to pursue' an education in the philosophical foundations of the natural law virtues IMHO whether they pull a (R) or (D) lever, they don't
"deserve respect"
and probably not
"sneers"
either. Pity is the probably the sentiment most apt under the circumstances...

"After reading a few hundred responses to the various columns on Barak's bitter rant I find it striking that both proponents and detractors seem to believe that everyone who votes places (or should place) their immediate self interest above every other possible consideration." mrdon

TR: I noticed that too. Even Ross's premise is that people get interested in social-issues because of rational self-interest. However it's unclear to me even why "rational self-interest" would make upper middle-class people more concerned about illegitimacy or abortion when it's the poor people who are harmed by those things more often. (The gay thing is a separate issue as "coming out" is most common in the upper classes so homosexuality, to an extent, is a more upper-class issue)

I think part of why commentators do this is because if people are rational their behavior can be more explicable. On some level they are aware that people are not rational and will usually admit that individuals are not purely driven driven by rational self-interest. However as a group it's believed, or hoped, that they are rationally self-interested. Because if they're not it's harder to comment on what they do.

That said I don't lean that way. What's easier is not always what's better or more accurate. People are influenced by cultural and emotional considerations that don't clearly map to rational self-interest. What's more I think they should be. Involuntary euthanasia for the frailest residents of nursing homes could fit easily into "rational self-interest" but emotionally or morally it'd be repugnant. The idea of caring for the weakest itself is more based in non-rational concepts than "enlightened self-interest."

"the GOP hasn't done any better than the Democrats in advancing solutions to the problems of crime ..."
The CHL issue is Republican -- Obama opposes shall-issue CHL programs despite the reduction in crime such programs cause.
Crime doesn't affect liberals because they have armed bodyguards. To them "guns" are a social issue like gay marriage. If we re-cast the debate in terms of eliminating all forms of private security they would very rapidly gain an understanding of the gun issue.
I guess you could say they suffer from false consciousness.

I know that you, like me, are from New England originally, but have you actually visited economically depressed parts of the Midwest? I wonder if you really have any idea what you are talking about with respect to the populations in question. With the exception of some remote parts of Maine, there isn't anything comparable in New England to, say, Western Nebraska, or northeastern lower Michigan.

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