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Conservatives and "Liberal Guilt"

27 May 2008 12:09 pm

This Ron Rosenbaum column praising liberal guilt (and suggesting that conservatives ought to feel some too) inspires Ezra Klein to write:

People don't like to feel guilt, particularly over actions they didn't directly commit. But rather than simply deny culpability, conservatives have managed to recast feeling guilt as a character flaw, as political weakness, as soft-headed emotionalism. This serves a lot of people's purposes, of course, particularly folks who come from a political movement that opposed desegregation as recently as 45 years ago, but it doesn't actually make any sense.

I think Reihan makes one important rejoinder to this point, noting that part of the conservative critique of "liberal guilt" has to do with the (arguably) perverse effects of a politics based on remorse over what your ancestors did - whether it's left-wing Westerners making excuses for Third World tyrants or left-wing Americans accusing anyone who wanted to talk about crime and social pathology in minority communities of "blaming the victim."

But the deeper question remains: Its political consequences aside, is guilt an appropriate response to the sins of your ancestors (whether biological or ideological)? Or is it a character flaw - a form of self-congratulatory scrupulosity? I'm not sure what my answer would be, but I don't think it's fair to say that the latter argument "doesn't actually make any sense."

Consider this passage from Rosenbaum:

What I don't understand is why there doesn't seem to be any conservative guilt over racism. Contemporary conservatives could learn from their revered godfather William F. Buckley Jr., who, early in his career at the National Review, wrote a pro-Jim Crow lead editorial—little remembered in liberal and other encomia to the man—titled "Why the South Must Prevail," in which he argued that segregation should persist even by illegal means because "the White community … for the time being … is the advanced race."

A valuable essay on this question by William Hogeland in the May/June issue of the Boston Review reminds us that even Buckley felt guilt—if not precisely "liberal guilt"—about this editorial, guilt that he expressed in a 2004 Time interview. "Have you taken any positions you now regret?" Time asked him. "Yes. I once believed we could evolve our way up from Jim Crow. I was wrong: federal intervention was necessary." Why can't conservative wiseguys (especially at the National Review) stop sneering at liberals long enough to learn from the admirable guilty wisdom of their sainted leader?

But Buckley felt guilty because his writing made him directly complicit in the perpetuation of Jim Crow. And yes, there are many conservatives of his generation, and to a lesser extent the generation after, who should feel guilty because of things that they themselves said and did. But what's at issue in the debate over "liberal guilt" isn't whether Buckley should feel guilty about what Buckley did; it's whether I, as a twentysomething conservative, should feel guilty about what he did - and, more broadly, whether I, as a twentysomething white American, should feel guilty about what white Americans used to do to black Americans. (Or to further confuse things, whether someone like Ramesh Ponnuru, as a thirtysomething Asian-American conservative, should feel guilty about what white conservatives said and did in the past.)

One provisional answer would be to say no to guilt, and yes to shame: I think they're different emotions, and that shame's connection to "dishonor" rather than "culpability" makes it a more appropriate response to sins that you yourself are only complicit in indirectly, through the ties of blood or citizenship or ideological fellow-travelership. But shame, in turn, only makes sense in relation to communities that you wish to associate yourself with, or that you can't disassociate yourself from even if you tried. So where race and racism are concerned, I feel much more ashamed as an American than I do as a twenty-first century conservative, because I feel a stronger loyalty to the America of the 1950s (or the 1850s) than I do to the conservative movement of the 1950s. I'm sure I would have subscribed to the early National Review and felt philosophical affinities with many of its writers, but I'm also pretty sure - allowing for the faint absurdity of any such hypothetical - that I wouldn't have self-identified a Buckleyite right-winger during the Civil Rights Era, and I don't think it makes sense to feel shame over the decades-old conduct of people you wouldn't have agreed with at the time just because the shifting currents of American politics eventually landed you in the same political camp.

Certainly, it would be absurd to insist that figures like Charlton Heston or Richard John Neuhaus, who were courageous civil-rights activists long before they became associated with the conservative point of view on gun control or abortion, should feel guilty over things their future ideological allies did and said, but that they themselves opposed. Obviously, the situation is less clear cut for those born to late to choose a side. But the conservatism that I would associate myself with wasn't born until the neoconservative turn in the 1970s, and to the extent that I feel ashamed of the conservative record on race, it's the post-1970s record - which obviously contains its share of sins - that I keep uppermost in mind.

Comments (106)

Ross,

I enjoyed your thoughtful post. I think this topic would be excellent fodder for a future Table episode with Matt Y. Is there any reason there haven't been more Table episodes recently?

White guilt makes sense for the guilty - those who have personally discriminated on the basis of race.

Shame is another matter. One can feel shame for actions committed by others. An embezzler can bring shame on his family. Pride is the flip side of shame, for example pride that your daughter has become a doctor.

Guilt and shame are easy to confuse. They feel similar, and they are unpleasant. Both lead to negative self-examination, which in turn can lead to positive change or can be turned against itself in denial, over-reaction, etc.

Why would I feel proud of the Marshall Plan? I wasn't alive. Yet I am proud that we fought the Nazis and were so gracious in victory. Likewise I feel shame at slavery & Jim Crow.

We are all part of the same nation, and our nation has a continuity beyond our individual lives. We experience that continuity in feelings of love, pride, shame, and guilt over what our nation is and has done.

Some people only countenance national feelings of pride or love, and cannot deal with their necessary counterparts, shame and guilt. Witness the ongoing sanitization of WWII textbooks in Japan. Witness those in the US who label any criticism of the Iraq War unpatriotic.

People incapable of feeling shame over the sins of our forefathers are as stunted as those who are not proud of our glories. Yes, some liberals have over-compensated their feelings of shame and guilt over institutionalized racism, with counter-productive results. So too have many conservatives failed to deal with the shame of our past as they categorically deny the descendents of slaves have any just claims from what was stolen from them for centuries.

White guilt is indeed thrown about as an epithet, but it is just a cheap slur on the legitimate issue of how we deal with the collective shame of our past as we move forward.

Affirmative Action is the edge of this divide. It harms and it helps. It is an affront and it can be justified. Anyone who thinks it is an easy call either needs to spend a little more time thinking of our nation's treatment of blacks for so long, or they need to reflect on the harm done to a white who has also overcome adversity when he or she was pushed out of line by a relatively privileged black.

In another words, if you are not torn over race you need to do some some reflection, and perhaps you should adjust your personel national pride/shame index a bit.

Ross Douthat's blasting of a black woman in New Orleans as a "welfare duchess" because she owns a large TV is just as shameful as anything William F. Buckley ever wrote, but at this point in his life - under the spells of Saint Reagan and Kleagle Steve Sailer - Ross is unable to feel any guilt over that.

And I never saw any sign that Buckley felt any real guilt over the pure racism of his youth. He spent most of his time patting himself on the back for having been magnanimous enough to admit that he had been wrong. And he remained a cheerleader for racists, overt and covert, until the end of his days. That's the nature of most modern American conservatism and it is part of his legacy.

There's an aspect to liberal guilt that I haven't seen raised in any responses to Rosenbaum's piece, namely that guilt can be an appropriate response to the ongoing consequences of historically guilty acts.

The effects of slavery and a century of Jim Crow laws are still with us. To step back and say that one should feel no guilt for the actions of one's ancestors, when the effects those ancestors created still dominate the culture, is to take an excessively minimalist view of moral culpability.

If your grandfather swindles someone out of their house, and the victim's grandchildren are still homeless while you sit on the house's porch watching them, a guilty conscience doesn't seem so absurd, does it?

There are several problems with basing politics on trans-generational guilt. And by politics, I'm talking about practical efforts to divy up resources -- good and bad things -- based on efforts to make amends for the past sins giving rise to the present guilt.

First, it is contrary to American notions of equality that anyone should have privileges or immunities accruing to them by reason of birth. To the grant people of certain colors or races privileges based on the sins suffered by their fathers is to create a sort of aristocracy of victims. Such an aristocracy is no less repugnant to our founding principles than an aristocracy of superior men.

Second, there is a lurking historicism animating this impulse that distorts the historical record. One of the arguments used by the South, and articulated in the Dred Scott decision, is that the Declaration of Independence could not have included blacks because the Founders did not emancipate the slaves right there and then. Lincoln's famous reply was that our Founding was unique, and the best hope for mankind, because it was the first to articulate human equality as its goal; and even though this goal would never be perfectly achieved -- should, Lincoln asked, the Founders not have declared independence because it was practically impossible to do away with slavery at the time? -- it would serve as guidepost and measuring stick for our regime and men everywhere. While there were many lapses in this struggle in the US, guilt-based politics judge past times unfairly and pay short shrift to what is noble about our past struggles and realistic in our future endeavors.

Finally, there is the practical problem of targeting those who are truly suffering from the sins of the past and providing relief to them. A related problem is tailoring any costs and punishments to those who in some way profited from the past sins. These practical problems will produce the impression in many that these measures are unfair and the response that two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think that moral culpability should be considered on a basis of "how one feels." We are way to preoccupied with intent when it comes to issues like this and not as cognizant of our (always already) commitments to one another - those of us past and those of us future. ... didn't Burke say something about this? A whole social contract with the past as well as the present? If you are attracted to this line of thinking (as I am) I don't see how you can take such a seemingly myopic view of what we really are responsible for.

Also: Repiglicans! Bushpigs! And so on!

Why would I feel proud of the Marshall Plan? I wasn't alive. Yet I am proud that we fought the Nazis and were so gracious in victory. Likewise I feel shame at slavery & Jim Crow.

I agree with tomtom. Irrational or not, I feel pride about Normandy and the Marshall Plan, and shame at the internment of the Japanese.

Pride and shame over your the past of your country (or ethnicity, or state, or whatever) are only any good if they lead you to avoid repeating old mistakes. Shame alone, or pride alone, can make you blind yourself to, minimize, or defend (Michelle Malkin) the triumphs and mistakes, respectively, of your country.

"Liberal guilt" is, mostly, an epithet conservatives use because they don't care about things that liberals do. It's easier to oppose a policy proposal if one perceives its proponents to be motivated by base passions. American conservatives, who are defined by their opposition to government actions to assist the worse off and their support for government use of force abroad, can stigmatize, rather than refute, those with differing views on those two issues by chalking them up to irrationality.

(Yes, there are conservatives like Daniel Larison and Brent Skowcroft, who opposed the Iraq invasion from the get-go. They haven't been in the driver's seat for the past decade.)

I don't think "liberal guilt" is about what one's ancestors may or may not have done. (This may have something to do with the fact that my ancestors were in fact slaveowners, so that if they calculated the bill for reparations on that basis I would be on the hook -- but I don't believe so.)

It is about feeling responsibility for the bad things white people like me are doing to non-white people now.

Irrational, yes. But fair is fair: Bill Cosby, to take a currently-prominent example, feels chagrined by the bad behavior of any American whose skin is the same color as his. And far as I can see, many if not most conservatives think he damn well ought to. Why shouldn't it work both ways?

So, if we should believe in collective guilt, surely we should believe in collective punishment as well? And if not, why not?

It seems to me that the left simply sees identity groups as the basic unit of politics in a way the right does not...

It's unfortunate that Ross and the Atlantic have us sign in with user names and email addresses but still allow something like the post at 1:42 to occur. I didn't post that item. If this sort of thing persists the comments here will devolve in short order to Fox News levels of idiocy. Imagine the hilarity if, for example, miscreants started posting under Kleagle Steve Sailer's name.

First, it is contrary to American notions of equality that anyone should have privileges or immunities accruing to them by reason of birth. To grant people of certain colors or races privileges based on the sins suffered by their fathers is to create a sort of aristocracy of victims.

Fair point, but it ignores the fact that white Americans have privileges and immunities accruing to them solely in virtue of being born white. The flipside of the aristocracy of victims is the aristocracy of skin color that still exists. The privileges and immunities are granted, not in virtue of the sins suffered by one's forefather, but the sins committed.

That's white privilege in a nutshell, and recognizing it in oneself and feeling guilt as a response isn't irrational; it's a useful motivator to address existing inequities.

Mike E writes: "It seems to me that the left simply sees identity groups as the basic unit of politics in a way the right does not..."

That's because you're a conservative and you're incapable of being honest, even with yourself.

Are you wearing your flag lapel pin today? How loudly did you cheer during the "kill a Muslim, any Muslim, yeah 9/11 yeah" days of Shock & Awe?

You don't think Rush & the dittoheads are all about identity politics? Spare me.

Ross is white?

ML&J:

You're right about one thing; I can't tell which posts are yours and which are parodies.

MoeLarryAndJesus writes: "You're right about one thing; I can't tell which posts are yours and which are parodies."

OK, chuckles, and I don't remember the last time you wrote anything interesting on this site.

Bushpig! Dumbya! Repiglicans!

Mike E says: "You're right about one thing; I can't tell which posts are yours and which are parodies."

That's because you're an idiot, Mikey. I'd return the favor but other than the ones in this thread I can't recall a single one of your posts.

I imagine they're all parodies, though. Just like your mom's orgasms.

"It's unfortunate that Ross and the Atlantic have us sign in with user names and email addresses but still allow something like the post at 1:42 to occur."

Moe, weren't you banned from this forum awhile back, but refused to go away? And now you're sulking because Ross and The Atlantic won't defend your good name and your honor? That's pretty rich.

Well, I think that even a Repiglican who deserves hemorrhoids for not liking the Boston Celtics should agree that it lowers the level of discourse in these comments sections if someone co-opts my username to parody my demented ravings. Don't sully my reputation for incisive and witty political analysis, you Dumbya-loving Bushpig! Bushpig! Repiglican! And so on!

Surely, Ross, a good Christian like yourself should be familiar with the fact that guilt is not confined to what you've done; "We have left undone those things which we ought to have done" is part of the basic Prayer of Confession in the Book of Common Prayer, and as such is intrinsic to much Protestant liturgy. Indeed, much "liberal guilt" is in fact guilt of this sort; that we haven't done enough to rectify historic injustice. Injustice is, after all, no less unjust for having been perpetrated by an ancestor; and if the injustice survives the ancestor [as is most certainly the case with the legacy of slavery] then atonement is the obligation of those down the line who have benefitted from that injustice [which we all have; if anything is to be learned from the economic history of slavery, it's that the fruits of that exploitation were very widely shared, and have underwritten many of our most important present-day institutions]. Of course, conservatives of a certain sort deny that this sort of responsibility exists; to them, we're only responsible for ourselves, and we owe none of our privileges to our ancestry or our society, but to our own virtue [I can cite no less an authority than Warren Buffett to the contrary]. Accordingly, if people suffer, it's their own damn fault, or at least somebody else's. Many of these conservatives claim to be good religious folk. Perhaps; but on this matter I will continue to consult the BCP, and regularly confess my failures to do good as much as my successes at doing evil.

P.S. This is not to gainsay that "liberal guilt" might not be a form of spiritual pride; but every virtue can become a vice. The possibility of that happening is no excuse not to practice virtue.

Norway writes: "Moe, weren't you banned from this forum awhile back, but refused to go away? And now you're sulking because Ross and The Atlantic won't defend your good name and your honor? That's pretty rich."

I'm not sulking, idiot. I'm merely pointing out how allowing this sort of thing can get out of hand. I'm quite willing and able to deal with that situation if it occurs. I'd even enjoy it for a while before it got boring.

As for the ban, sanity prevailed and it was lifted. And why should I have "gone away," anyway? Are you such a wretched toady that you would accept such treatment automatically? Norway's a poor name for you - change it to Quisling.

" ...white Americans have privileges and immunities accruing to them solely in virtue of being born white..."

Justin,

I am a white male, born to two Italians, one of whom was a direct immigrant. Neither family ever owned slaves, or did anything to oppress any other racial or ethnic group - they were too busy working hard to make life better for their children. My mother STILL works, at age 88, because she WANTS TO. I worked my way thru university as a computer programmer, spent time in the military, and then in the government, where I hired and promoted white, black, and asian, male and female engineers. I NEVER oppressed ANYONE, of ANY race, gender, or ethnic group.

Why should I feel any guilt or shame? Where is my privilege? I don't feel any privilege - just a sense that (1) people who do not want to work, want what I have worked and saved for, and (2) people who have a strange idea of "justice" want to help decide how these things will be distributed. I worked hard all my life, but I am not rich. I saved money, and did not squander it on "entertainment", or drugs, or flashy clothes or cars. I went to the freely available public libraries and borrowed books to read. When I had some money, I bought books and read them and educated myself. I lived at home with my parents during college because it did not waste precious resources just to give me an "experience".

Where is my privilege? The only gift I admit to receiving came from my parents, and it is NOT something that they took from anyone else, by any twisted sense of imagination. It has to do with not feeling sorry for yourself, and standing up and doing something about whatever situation you face, rather than being a whiner and a complainer.

I don't need guilt to motivate me. Sure, there are things I have done in my life that I am ashamed of, but they do not extend to any sort of collective guilt. I think this is something that comes out of religious training, and depending on where/how you receive it, you can have a little or a lot. The latest source of religious guilt training has to be the environmental movement, which is steadily convincing children that they are guilty for simply existing on this planet.

My parents did not give me ANY religious training, so I was never incubated with the concept, except when I personally did something wrong, and it was made clear to me (with a good whack in the ass) that I should feel sorry for what I had done. Not sorry for myself. I take responsibility for my actions, and I think about the consequences beforehand.

So, once again, where are my "privileges and immunities"? I stand in line with everyone else at the airport and submit to being searched. My boat can be searched at any time, without a warrant. I am more liable to being audited by the IRS than most members of minority groups because my income is higher than theirs (isn't that a nice privilege?)

I don't feel privileged at all.

David in Nashville has a point. It is difficult to reconcile Christianity with the idea that corporate guilt is inherently unreasonable. "In Adam's fall, we sinned all."

" ...white Americans have privileges and immunities accruing to them solely in virtue of being born white..."

Justin,

I am a white male, born to two Italians, one of whom was a direct immigrant. Neither family ever owned slaves, or did anything to oppress any other racial or ethnic group - they were too busy working hard to make life better for their children. My mother STILL works, at age 88, because she WANTS TO. I worked my way thru university as a computer programmer, spent time in the military, and then in the government, where I hired and promoted white, black, and asian, male and female engineers. I NEVER oppressed ANYONE, of ANY race, gender, or ethnic group.

Why should I feel any guilt or shame? Where is my privilege? I don't feel any privilege - just a sense that (1) people who do not want to work, want what I have worked and saved for, and (2) people who have a strange idea of "justice" want to help decide how these things will be distributed. I worked hard all my life, but I am not rich. I saved money, and did not squander it on "entertainment", or drugs, or flashy clothes or cars. I went to the freely available public libraries and borrowed books to read. When I had some money, I bought books and read them and educated myself. I lived at home with my parents during college because it did not waste precious resources just to give me an "experience".

Where is my privilege? The only gift I admit to receiving came from my parents, and it is NOT something that they took from anyone else, by any twisted sense of imagination. It has to do with not feeling sorry for yourself, and standing up and doing something about whatever situation you face, rather than being a whiner and a complainer.

I don't need guilt to motivate me. Sure, there are things I have done in my life that I am ashamed of, but they do not extend to any sort of collective guilt. I think this is something that comes out of religious training, and depending on where/how you receive it, you can have a little or a lot. The latest source of religious guilt training has to be the environmental movement, which is steadily convincing children that they are guilty for simply existing on this planet.

My parents did not give me ANY religious training, so I was never incubated with the concept, except when I personally did something wrong, and it was made clear to me (with a good whack in the ass) that I should feel sorry for what I had done. Not sorry for myself. I take responsibility for my actions, and I think about the consequences beforehand.

So, once again, where are my "privileges and immunities"? I stand in line with everyone else at the airport and submit to being searched. My boat can be searched at any time, without a warrant. I am more liable to being audited by the IRS than most members of minority groups because my income is higher than theirs (isn't that a nice privilege?)

I don't feel privileged at all.

Wonderful post, and great discussion here. Rosenbaum, and many of the posters here, miss the main point, which is that liberal guilt should be ridiculed because of the poor policy it promotes. For those criticizing (some) segregation-era conservatives, does it make it better that liberal public policy, to come full circle, hurts minorities?

Liberal guilt is mental maturbation. "It's a shame what 'we' did to 'them'." That's condescending and destructive, and much worse than a 60s-era National Review editorial.

" ...white Americans have privileges and immunities accruing to them solely in virtue of being born white..."

Justin,

I am a white male, born to two Italians, one of whom was a direct immigrant. Neither family ever owned slaves, or did anything to oppress any other racial or ethnic group - they were too busy working hard to make life better for their children. My mother STILL works, at age 88, because she WANTS TO. I worked my way thru university as a computer programmer, spent time in the military, and then in the government, where I hired and promoted white, black, and asian, male and female engineers. I NEVER oppressed ANYONE, of ANY race, gender, or ethnic group.

Why should I feel any guilt or shame? Where is my privilege? I don't feel any privilege - just a sense that (1) people who do not want to work, want what I have worked and saved for, and (2) people who have a strange idea of "justice" want to help decide how these things will be distributed. I worked hard all my life, but I am not rich. I saved money, and did not squander it on "entertainment", or drugs, or flashy clothes or cars. I went to the freely available public libraries and borrowed books to read. When I had some money, I bought books and read them and educated myself. I lived at home with my parents during college because it did not waste precious resources just to give me an "experience".

Where is my privilege? The only gift I admit to receiving came from my parents, and it is NOT something that they took from anyone else, by any twisted sense of imagination. It has to do with not feeling sorry for yourself, and standing up and doing something about whatever situation you face, rather than being a whiner and a complainer.

I don't need guilt to motivate me. Sure, there are things I have done in my life that I am ashamed of, but they do not extend to any sort of collective guilt. I think this is something that comes out of religious training, and depending on where/how you receive it, you can have a little or a lot. The latest source of religious guilt training has to be the environmental movement, which is steadily convincing children that they are guilty for simply existing on this planet.

My parents did not give me ANY religious training, so I was never incubated with the concept, except when I personally did something wrong, and it was made clear to me (with a good whack in the ass) that I should feel sorry for what I had done. Not sorry for myself. I take responsibility for my actions, and I think about the consequences beforehand.

So, once again, where are my "privileges and immunities"? I stand in line with everyone else at the airport and submit to being searched. My boat can be searched at any time, without a warrant. I am more liable to being audited by the IRS than most members of minority groups because my income is higher than theirs (isn't that a nice privilege?)

I don't feel privileged at all.

Sorry for the duplicate post.

Justin JJ -

We can no sooner create the world that "would have" existed without slavery, Jim Crow, et al. than we can create one in which a white son of a pipefitter on the south side of Chicago can be made "equal" to an investment banker's WASP kid up in Wilmette or Evanston. We are born in unequal circumstances for many reasons.

What should we tinker with here? What is the moral, reasonable outcome all of the caring white liberals can give us? That is the point of ridiculing "white guilt" or "liberal guilt," not the idea that we shouldn't accept our shameful past.

(rxz) "Why should I feel any guilt or shame? Where is my privilege?"

We all should feel shame for the same reason we should feel pride. We are Americans. Our nation's accomplishments deserve our pride, and its failings are shameful. You are privileged for the same reason, because you are an American.

Patriotism makes demands on us. It disallows completely separating our personal history from our national history. Doing so is shallow and self-indulgent. It mocks the debt we owe each other, and the mutual responsibilities we carry.

rxc,
I understand what you're saying, but it sort of misses the point a bit. You should be justly proud of your accomplishments, your family, etc. But this isn't really a discussion about "you" directly. Indeed, my guess is that most white people living today don't come from families that owned slaves. The larger issue (to me at least) is not about whether you or your family or Ross' family have some direct privilege that's directly gained from your being born white, but is rather about the consistent and lasting detrimental effects on people in the United States who were born black. Your basic assumption seems to be that black people, by and large, don't have anything because they don't want to work hard for it or because they have misplaced priorities. That might be true about some small portion of that group, but I certainly don't think its anywhere near true for all (and I'm writing as a college educated black man who is about to start a master's program in the fall). The point is, as Ezra Klein notes in his response to Ross, is that you don't carry the same kind of emotional and psychological baggage that comes with being black in America. Now, let me be the very first to say that I know many other immigrant groups experienced bigotry and racism in this country. Those things are horrible when they happen to any group. But, the classic immigrant story is very, very different from that of the African-American community. Let's recall, for example, that we were codifed as being less than a full person in the Constitution that we had to live under a codified exclusionary system of laws and that we were only granted a full civil rights in the middle of the last century. Now, I am not saying all of that to excuse the black communities internal struggles. African-Americans have a lot we have to address and answer for. But to act like the experience of being black in America is simply the same as everyone else's is not being open minded about the history of this country.

Ferrell writes: "Liberal guilt is mental maturbation. "It's a shame what 'we' did to 'them'." That's condescending and destructive, and much worse than a 60s-era National Review editorial."

This is actually what conservatives think - that contemporary black Americans should shut up about the past and be grateful they live in America.

If "liberal guilt" (a stupid and insufficient phrase, of course) is "mental maturbation" (sic), then conservative white supremacy is mental sadism. If Ferrell watched "Roots" as a child he probably envied the bastard who got to whip and maim Kunta Kinte.

Acknowledging an injustice isn't "guilt." It's just a form of higher human behavior most conservatives can't quite manage when they're on the side holding the whips.

"Fair point, but it ignores the fact that white Americans have privileges and immunities accruing to them solely in virtue of being born white."

Whatever privileges whites have, they don't have them expressly by law. That's a crucial distinction.

As for your more general point, I don't think guilt is the proper way to frame or address the problem. The argument for some sort of remediation for blacks, and for the blacks alone, should be based on principles of equality, not pity or victimhood; that is, the legacy of slavery unfairly impaired the ability of blacks to enjoy their equal civil rights.

It was a felony to teach slaves to read or write in many states; they could not own much if any property; and, for fear of insurrection, slaves were prohibited from forming any sorts of social associations. It could be argued that slavery unjustly and under the color of law deprived blacks of the economic and social capital needed to enjoy their equal rights as American citizens. Given that the dehumanizing effects of slavery had set the enslaved back so much, emancipation alone was not enough to restore them to the status quo ex ante of freedom.

The problem is whether such sins are amenable to absolution by political means, especially after a great lapse of time, or whether any such efforts will only do more harm. Deciding who gets what for how long and from whom and for what reason -- these are all political questions for the here and now, and each time you divy up the goods you create a new class of winners and losers.

Ferrell writes: "Liberal guilt is mental maturbation. "It's a shame what 'we' did to 'them'."

No Ferrell, the shame is what we did to us.

I suppose it is condescending of me to point this out.

I don't feel privileged at all.

Thank you for a very thoughtful response, rxc.

There's a saying that the essence of privilege is not recognizing that you're privileged at all--an unconscious "let them eat cake" attitude that permeates one's views on race. It's a fairly obnoxious way of pointing out that it's not about what you do individually, it's about lacking an understanding of how much suffering you escape in virtue of being born white. You probably haven't been pulled over for driving while white. If you're charged with a crime, you're on the right side of the historical imbalance in sentencing that correlates with skin color. You aren't subject to the corrosive effect of constantly wondering if your race is the reason that your raise wasn't as big as you think it should be, of wondering if the store detective is following you because of your race, of wondering if your neighbors are cool to you because they don't like black people. You aren't subject to the corrosive effect of being vigilant for attacks on you that are triggered by the color of your skin.

Being born white, and living white, means you don't get exposed to wide variety of prejudices, bigotry, and more subtle sociological effects that are a consequence. There's a haunting pair of videos on the Internet of a black woman who, when she was a teenager in the 70s, won a science fair with a video she compiled of interviews she gave to black toddlers. She put a black doll and white doll in front of them, and asked them which was the good baby? Which baby would they like to be? The black toddlers were almost unanimous in choosing the white doll as the good baby, the one they want to be; the black doll was the bad baby. The second video was a repeat of the first, decades later; there was virtually no change in the results.

You could argue that it's not a privilege to not be born handicapped, but that's a semantic difference unlikely to impress someone who's been in a wheelchair their whole life. The point remains that you started higher up the ladder just because you were born white. Whether or not you're individually virtuous with respect to race (and you seem very virtuous by your post), you started far ahead of minority others.

Now, should you feel guilty simply for being born (relatively) well? No, no more than someone born wealthy should feel guilt over the silver spoon in their mouth. But when that silver spoon was bought with a fortune built on the backs of slaves, you inherit a certain guilt that comes with dirty money. As someone quoted above from the Prayer of Confession:

We have left undone those things which we ought to have done

What should we tinker with here? What is the moral, reasonable outcome all of the caring white liberals can give us? That is the point of ridiculing "white guilt" or "liberal guilt," not the idea that we shouldn't accept our shameful past.

All that mocking "liberal guilt" accomplishes is to perpetuate the stereotype that conservatives are racist insofar as they refuse to acknowledge any complicity in perpetuating the current circumstances that descend from our shameful past. It's a stereotype I've learned to dismiss, but mockery of liberal guilt doesn't help.

The moral, reasonable outcome is to work for equality. Affirmative action was one (failed) way of addressing inequity, but it was at least an attempt to do so. The alternative is the fiction of "now that we know better, we'll act color-blind and minorities can bootstrap themselves into actual equality to match the principled equality in which we firmly believe." It's not about the attempt to create an alternate history. It's about addressing real inequities that exist today, not just saying "our bad, our bad."

Whatever privileges whites have, they don't have them expressly by law. That's a crucial distinction.

The legacy of systemic racism is a deep, circumstantial divide. Getting rid of laws against teaching blacks to read is immaterial if you don't then teach them to read. The most obvious legacy of slavery is the poverty that continues to plague the black community. That poverty isn't mandated by law, but it's still very real, and at this point probably the biggest problem to address.

The problem is whether such sins are amenable to absolution by political means, especially after a great lapse of time, or whether any such efforts will only do more harm. Deciding who gets what for how long and from whom and for what reason -- these are all political questions for the here and now, and each time you divy up the goods you create a new class of winners and losers.

Another fair point. The legacy of affirmative action may be lawsuits in a decades time about how AA infantilized minority communities and actually harmed their progress. The practical matter of how to address inequity is a deep, hard question. What I reject, when I reject Ferrell's mockery of liberal guilt, is the idea that we can't do anything about it, that the problem is too deep and too hard for us, so we'll just let them eat cake.

First, it is contrary to American notions of equality that anyone should have privileges or immunities accruing to them by reason of birth.

Great argument for a 100% estate tax.

The interesting question for me is what happens when rxe and Mike P interact, because that accounts for the overwhelming majority of interactions between white and black. Most white people aren't the descendants of slave owners, do not come from families that got rich from the slave trade, and do not feel that they personally got anything from the oppression of black Americans. Indeed, they may be solidly opposed to the oppression of black Americans. The problem with liberal guilt, as I see it, is when white liberals who truly are more privileged that most Americans (of any color) try to impose something on rxe just because he vaguely resembles the descendants of slave owners. It doesn't sound like he IS as privileged as the white elite, even if he has not suffered from the same problems that black Americans face. So why should the people who truly are privileged get to tell him how to feel?

Elites in this country are rather fond of playing "let's you and him fight," which involves driving a wedge between working class people who belong to different groups. We know that some conservatives have done this with racist appeals to white working class people. Some black supremacists do the same with what I consider to be racist appeals to black working class people. The liberal guilt thing is more subtle -- it's the white liberal elite approach to get the white working class to shut up and let the white liberal elite have its way. Which may or may not be a good thing in any given case, depending on what the white liberal elite wants to do. Those of us who think they are sometimes misguided would like to dispense with the guilt thing and force them to defend each policy on the merits.

So in the end, I think we have to get back to specific policies and not worry too much about people's internal emotional states. You're not going to convince working class white people to give up what they have for the benefit of minorities and immigrants, and I don't think anyone should try. Rich white people can give up some of what they have, perhaps including some of their peace of mind, but then they can afford to. But I think what we really need to do is to find policies that help the people at the bottom of the social order WITHOUT hurting the group that's only one notch further up.

Perhaps a good first step would be working class solidarity across racial lines. Any takers?

M.C.
Interesting comments. Your last point reminds me of the remarks Jim Webb made a week or so ago. He was on one of the morning talk shows promoting his book and was asked about Obama's "Appalachia problem". Webb went on to make an overlooked point about how poor white Americans and African-Americans actually have a lot in common and figuring out how to bring those groups together would be something that he (and others) should want to address. To a certain extent, this is where you can start to see some movement towards making affirmative action a program with a socioeconomic rationale as opposed to a race based one.

Most white people aren't the descendants of slave owners, do not come from families that got rich from the slave trade, and do not feel that they personally got anything from the oppression of black Americans.

While that "I don't feel privileged" response is understandable, you're mischaracterizing the issue by limiting it to the descendants of slave owners or traders.

Just as being born in America means you typically don't have to worry about endemic third world diseases, being born white means you don't have to worry about a variety of bigotries and effects that would otherwise impact you. That's not to say that you aren't subject to other forms of suffering, based on class or geography or other accidents of your birth. But it's still privilege based on your race, and it's a privilege that was created by historical injustices, and which you enjoy whether you feel it or not.

You may not feel privileged to not worry about clean drinking water, but you are. That you're suffering for other reasons doesn't change that.

Agree on working class solidarity.

"Perhaps a good first step would be working class solidarity across racial lines. Any takers?"

What exactly is the working class? Does anyone still talk like this? Do the good folks in the working class ghettos, wherever they are, identify themselves as members of the working class? Do they have ballcaps with "working class" banners? Should they really all just agree with each other, even though they might think they differ on matters such as Iraq, gay marriage, tastes-great versus less filling?

This reminds me a bit of the classics scholar who got a flat in Greece and tried to explain his problem to the Greek bartender by telling him in Homeric Greek that the axle to his chariot was broken. The bartender replied, "you haven't been around here in a while, have you?"

MC, it's been a while, hasn't it? The good news is that you can get a new version of your Marx-Engels reader really cheap, and most likely unread, at just about any used books store.

LarryMoe, thanks for the Roots reference, however absurd. I can't help thinking you'd like to whip me.

Justin, you make excellent points, deserving of more than my dismissive earlier post.

Let me first address the mockery of white guilt, which is well-deserved. I, too, see the legacies of racism in our country and want them addressed. But I believe there is a disingenuous, "I feel your pain" condescension by liberals in the form of affirmative action and other artificial quick fixes, which you acknowledge (at least partially) as failed. I think this is a way for people to make themselves feel better without having any material impact.

If I understand your point correctly, you ask, okay, if conservatives don't like liberal policy, are we content to sit on our hands and say "oh well"? And on that, I would hope the answer is no. I think the distinction is more with how we address the issue, whether creating an environment to succeed, rather than trying to wave the magic AA wand. This stems partially from the equality versus freedom debate.

The circumstantial divide you pointed out is real, but I don't see a reasonable answer other than training, educating and equipping young, poor, minority school children just as we would the rich white ones, and steering them away from the pessimistic determinism taught by said liberals.

The desired effect? From my standpoint, the opportunity to earn a decent living and put your children in safe, quality schools and a decent neighborhood. That's not exactly a restructuring of the ruling class, but it's a start.

Mike P -

I don't agree with Webb on everything, but he makes a lot of sense on this point. It's not a new argument, though. A lot of people have been making it for years, but it has been shouted down by the more polarized debates. I'm glad to see that there are finally occasions to bring it out.

Justin JJ -

How is privilege related to race of practical significance to the person who is not in a position to harm others? The white guilt argument presumes that all white people should feel a certain way and take certain actions. When applied to the boss, the relevant action might be "don't discriminate." But what about when applied to the employee? Is the white employee required to give up his position because someone who looks vaguely like him once discriminated? That's asking for something that I don't think the employer class can reasonably ask the white employee class, at least not unless the employer class gives up far, far more. And so liberal guilt becomes a problem in interactions AMONG WHITES. That's always where people complain about it.

" ... working class solidarity across racial lines. Any takers?"

None here. I am not a big supporter of this sort of group politics. I understand why it develops, but I don't want to be part of it. I just want to be left alone. This from someone who spent a large part of his career in govt, because I know how govt can really screw up your life, if it wants to.

As for the guilt issue, and what to do about the lingering effects of racism, I don't think this is solved by continually talking about it. The people who feel guilt obviously need to talk about, which is why we tell them to get over it (to quote a famous black politician from DC). NPR is the only semi-intelligent radio in America, but it gets tiring hearing the litany of race guilt and environmental guilt and class guilt that constantly spews forth.

And all of the calls for reparations don't think about how it will be carried out, to determine who deserves to be compensated. How much black blood is needed to show an adequate amount of suffering? The concept of suffering is central to this guilt issue, and I think it comes from the Christian tradition (as I understand it), that Jesus suffered and died "for you". This eloquent-sounding paradigm makes absolutely no sense to me, a non-religious person, but it seems to strike a chord in a lot of people. I think is the basis for the socialist model, albeit in a "rtional" context, as opposed to a religious one.

I had a woman working for me once who was from Somalia. She was smart, a hard worker, and one of the best people I ever had. Her family emigrated from Somalia in the 90s, when her father was forced to flee the violence because he was a govt official. She came to the US, and got a degree in engineering. She speaks Arabic, Italian, English, and Somali(?). She got where she is because she worked for it. She does not feel like she has been left behind. Another black engineer that I hired came from inner-Baltimore. Just as competent, but her background is out of slavery. How to you determine what each of these women get in terms of a "cut" from the proposals to help the disadvantaged black people in the US? Explain how you come up with this determination.

C'mon, Repiglicans!!! Can't we all get back to talking about ME?!?!

Cicero -

Fun post. I try to introduce a little complexity by pointing out that not all whites belong in the same bin, and that some might even protect their interests by forming odd alliances that liberals might not predict, and you go and try to rebut me by pointing out that not all working class people agree either. Well, obviously. ALL the potential alliances should be up for grabs, all the time. And that means a little more clarity about what people actually consider their interests to be, not what interests they are assigned by outsiders. You can't make deals unless you take people's representations of their own interests at face value.

The not-so-rich white person and the not-so-poor black person are going to be interesting wild cards in politics in the next generation. That's before you even get to other races. I haven't the vaguest idea what Latinos are going to do, and Bobby Jindal is something I never would have predicted back in the 90s.

And for the record, I'm leaning McCain in November. I like Obama, but think he's too liberal and likely to get out of hand with a Democratic Congress. "Force them to make a deal" is my mantra, not "dictatorship of the proletariat." Marx-Engels my eye.

Cicero: Snarky snarky.

Is your paycheck salary or hourly? Hourly means working class, exception are pretty rare.

I don't know about you, but where I work it is about 50/50 hourly/salaried, and working class vs. professional class is a daily reality.

You have to be blind to miss it.

Sure MoeLarry (I keep calling you LarryMoe) - what's your user name on Daily Kos? I'll go light you up over there.

Ferrell, that comment at 4:35 wasn't written by me, it was written by some Dumbya-loving Bushpig. At 4:35 the orderlies were changing my diaper. Repiglicans, every last one of them!

PS: I am lonely. Will someone please be my friend?

I believe there is a disingenuous, "I feel your pain" condescension by liberals in the form of affirmative action and other artificial quick fixes

I won't dispute that there are limousine liberals for whom ego dividends are more important than practical effects. But to characterize all liberal attempts to improve the situation for minorities as such is painting with too broad a brush, and illuminates why the black community consistently votes as a block for the Democrats: They're the ones who, for good or bad, at least look like they're actively trying to do something about it.

I think the distinction is more with how we address the issue, whether creating an environment to succeed, rather than trying to wave the magic AA wand.... The circumstantial divide you pointed out is real, but I don't see a reasonable answer other than training, educating and equipping young, poor, minority school children just as we would the rich white ones, and steering them away from the pessimistic determinism taught by said liberals.

I agree that training and education are the strongest, long term means of erasing the circumstantial inequities that are a problem, and I suspect most liberals would too. But you seem to be separating approaches into wooly headed quick fixes and foundational approaches that pay off in the long term, while ignoring the vast grey area in between.

Affirmative action, for example, just was an attempt to provide educational opportunities for minority communities. Preferential entrance to slots in university aimed to create a generation of middle class black Americans with all the economic benefits of a college degree, who wouldn't be on welfare and food stamps and who would provide a better role model than rappers. It's whole purpose was to, as you put it, "[equip] young, poor, minority school children just as we would the rich white ones", and it was bitterly opposed by conservatives. It failed for a variety of reasons, but mostly because the recipients of AA slots were reaching university unprepared to take advantage of the benefit it conferred. Graduate from an inner city high school where being able to read isn't required to graduate, and no AA program will help. But the issue that failure identifies isn't the wrongheadedness of AA; it's the failure to simultaneously address deeper causes like poverty and its effects on minority communities.

My own feeling is that poverty is the most productive area to attack directly, and again, education is the long term solution. But you can't educate kids who are hungry or who want to cut class so they can be in a gang.

You may not agree with this, but I think you can see how a liberal ends up supporting food stamp programs without it being a matter of ego dividends or looking for simple quick fixes.

How is privilege related to race of practical significance to the person who is not in a position to harm others?... Is the white employee required to give up his position because someone who looks vaguely like him once discriminated?

There've been various interesting things written on the topic of "okay, I'm privileged... how do I eschew that privilege in a way that doesn't seem like morbid, self-flagellating repentence?" There's no question that it's difficult, and can create some hard choices. Little things like walking away when someone tells a racist joke; big things like turning down a promotion because your black coworker should have received it but didn't.

I don't know what level of action is appropriate. I know that, now that I understand white privilege a bit, I genuinely find racist humor unfunny that I laughed at ten years earlier. A lot of the battle is simple consciousness raising, I think.

Ross,

I would presume that, as a Christian, you accept that corporate guilt is not inherently a silly concept. One can disagree with exactly what original sin is supposed to mean, but anyone who is a Christian pretty much has to accept the concept of original sin, and with the corporate guilt that that entails. We each bear the responsibility of nailing Christ to the cross, do we not? To deny that would seem to espouse Pelagianism.

Since you're a Catholic I might also point out that the last few Popes have made numerous apologies on behalf of the Church for what previous generations of Popes did, to the Jews and so forth. Clearly the recent Popes have not thought that the concept of corporate guilt is silly.


One might add that Abraham Licoln, the founder of the Republican Party, appears to have seen the Civil War as divine punishment for the sins of slavery. That would seem to imply some kind of acceptance of the concept of collective guilt.

Hector: on the other hand, wasn't an assumption of collective guilt what the Popes were apologizing to Jews for? It seems to me that feeling shame or "guilt" (though not in the sense of guilt for individual sin -- I feel guilt at the wounds of Christ because they are due in part to _my sins_, but the nature of original sin is somewhat different and does not incur the same reaction) is good, but that basing policies on "which policy will make me feel like I'm atoning most, never mind the outcome" is the core problem with "liberal guilt."

The problem isn't white guilt per se, but the unequal standard that is applied: Only Westerners are held responsible for what their anscestors did. How about we hold the Mongolians responsible for their anscestors? They must surely owe reparations to all of Asia and half of Europe.

Besides, to hold whites particularly responsible for slavery is silly; practically every civilization throughout history has had slaves - the West was the one civilization that *abolished* it. If the West is unique, it is uniquely virtous, at least when it comes to slavery.

Justin JJ-

being born white means you don't have to worry about a variety of bigotries and effects that would otherwise impact you.

You've obviously never been in a jail "dorm" with 24 beds -- containing 21 blacks and 9 whites. Do you want to guess the 'race' of all six guys sleeping on the floor?

The problem isn't white guilt per se, but the unequal standard that is applied: Only Westerners are held responsible for what their anscestors did.

It's not that whites or westerners are held responsible for slavery in general. It's that we should be responsible for the slavery that our ancestors practiced, the consequences of which we are still living with.

You've obviously never been in a jail "dorm" with 24 beds -- containing 21 blacks and 9 whites. Do you want to guess the 'race' of all six guys sleeping on the floor?

So you're saying that you now have an idea of what it's like to be a discriminated against minority and how that affects you?

Justin - we have some common ground on the diagnosis of the problem, if not necessarily the solutions.

Ron Rosenbaum wants you to know that if he had any ancestors who owned slaves or fought Indians, he'd feel just terrible about it, and you should too.

"Cicero: Snarky snarky.
Is your paycheck salary or hourly? Hourly means working class, exception are pretty rare.
I don't know about you, but where I work it is about 50/50 hourly/salaried, and working class vs. professional class is a daily reality.
You have to be blind to miss it."

Help me out here. I'm a partner in a law firm -- I get a draw based in large part on the hourly fees paid by my own (and a lesser extent others') clients. The associates in my firm get 6 figure salaries. So, am I the partner in the working class and my associates are in the, what exactly is the opposite of the working class anyway?)?

Working class solidarity is an anachronism.

MC understood the spirit of my post far better - this was all in fun. I enjoyed his post and thought he was on a really good roll there, which made the last sentence all the more jarring.

In the good old days Ross and I used to go over to Bill Buckley's house for a circle jerk while watching "Birth of a Nation." I always finished first, Buck never finished, and Ross usually never got started. But never mind that. We were happy white brothers living in Ronald Reagan's shadow.

Those were the days when being white and right was all a man needed. Along with a little Vaseline.

Three observations about liberal guilt.
1. Liberals make pathetic attempts to assuage their guilt by making others pay. For example, liberals like Barbara Streisand, Ariana Huffington, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Teddy Kennedy and friends could donate all of their own money and fancy homes to the charity of their choice but instead they want US to pay. They keep their wealth but sound magnamimous doing so.

2. Negative emotions like anger and guilt arise from belief in irrational thoughts such as: "Isn't it AWFUL? Poor souls..they are not capable of helping themselves" instead of rational statements like: "Most human beings are capable of independence and success. If we provide a level playing field with hard work most Americans can realize the American dream."

3. Thomas Sowell, renowned columnist, reminds us that ALL societies have committed the sin of slavery. Africans enslaved Africans. He says "The tragedy of slavery was of a far greater magnitude than that. People of every race and color were both slaves and enslavers, for thousands of years, all around the world. Europeans enslaved other Europeans for centuries before the first African was brought across the Atlantic. Asians enslaved other Asians, as well as whatever Europeans they could get hold of. Slavery existed in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus ever got here.
Slavery, like cancer, was not limited to any particular country or race. To talk about cancer as if it were an American disease, or a white or black disease, would be absurd. If reparations were to be paid for slavery, everybody on this planet would owe everybody else."

Okay, I confess, that "Steve Sailer" comment at 8:53 was me. I made a tactical error earlier today by more or less announcing that I planned to start posting under his name. Also, long-time fans of my work will recognize my cringe-worthy tendency to project my sexual fantasies onto people whose politics differ from mine. It's my way of dealing with crushing shame, impotent rage, and generalized feelings of inadequacy and unhappiness.

Anyway, I apologize if I ruffled any feathers; I'll be asking the staff here to adjust the cocktail of sedatives and anti-psychotic medications that keep me on a (relatively) even keel.

Thanks for your patience and understanding during this difficult time.

I'm still laughing out loud at the comment directly above this one.

So am I, Marc, so am I. I'm also still a little grossed out by the image of the Sailer/Douthat/Buckley, uh, think tank sessions, but it's not like this is new information.

Eventually these comments will resemble Baghdad in that no one will really know who anyone is or what anyone is really responsible for. It will be art reflecting the Bushpig way. And it will be glorious.

I hate London
I hate France
I'd eat John McCain's
Underpants.

Actually, Marc, I have to confess: this is starting to get under my skin. If I were really on-form I would have said that your finding humor in my predicament was an indication that you were a Dumbya-loving Repiglican. That's the kind of incisive political analysis that made me famous. But I'm so perturbed right now that I can't think up witty rejoinders like, "If you think that's funny then why don't you go jerk off your hero Dick Cheney, you Bushpig-worshipping Repiglican?" See, Repiglican! I used to love typing that! Now it dies on my fingertips as I bang it onto the keyboard.

All I can do right now is try to play it off, and persist in pretending that people will be fooled by stuff like my pathetic attempt to imitate Chris Ford at 11:52. I mean, Chris Ford's posts are masterpieces of paranoid political poetry. And I use his name to post a dirty nursery rhyme? Who do I think I'm kidding?

As Sen. Hillary Clinton has ‘managed’ to take the Pennsylvania state, the Democratic race for nomination is very much alive – and most likely to be decided by superdelegates. Nevertheless.. Indiana ,Idaho and West Virginia are still to come.

If you’re tired of waiting around for those super delegates to make a decision already, go to LobbyDelegates.com and push them to support Clinton or Obama

If you haven't done so yet, http://www.lobbydelegates.com enables you to do that. please write a message to each of your state's superdelegates

It takes a moment, but what's a few minutes now worth to get Obama in office?!

Sending a note to current Obama supporters lets them know it's appreciated, sending a note to current Clinton supporters can hopefully sway them to change their vote to Obama, and sending a note to the uncommitted folks will hopefully sway them to vote for Obama. It's that easy...

Clinton Supporters too …. !

It takes a moment, but what's a few minutes now worth to get Clinton in office?!

Sending a note to current Clinton supporters lets them know it's appreciated, sending a note to current Obama supporters can hopefully sway them to change their vote to Clinton, and sending a note to the uncommitted folks will hopefully sway them to vote for Clinton. It's that easy...

REALLY easy to identify the superdelegates and reach out to them! It includes a list of names, addresses, and affiliations of superdelegates from each state including your state

The issue of "guilt" misses the point. The real question is why conservatives continue to take positions whose underlying logic and intellectual basis are the same as those of the discredited positions taken by conservatives of the past. For instance, today we hear the right arguing against gay marriage in the same terms (that it's unnatural, un-biblical, self-indulgent, contrary to good social order, not a federal responsibility, etc.) that were once deployed against interracial marriage and minority civil rights in general. Why should we suppose that the current arguments will look any better 50 years from now than 1950s conservative opposition to civil rights looks today?

There's more on this, including an analysis of the core mistakes that underlie conservative positions generation after generation, in my article "Why Conservatives are Alwasy Wrong," at http://conservativesarealwayswrong.googlepages.com/home.

Trying that link again -- see if this works:

http://conservativesarealwayswrong.googlepages.com

How amusing. The problem, of course, is to pretend that you are your group. People should really refrain from using group identity, it is counter productive. It leads to stupid pissing matches like this thread, where people want to measure their penises of oppression. "Look how oppressed my group is" whine whine whine. Equally as obnoxious is to claim pride in a group's accomplishments. "Beethoven was awesome, of Eurpean ancestry, and therefore I am awesome". This sort of childish drivel is the sort of groupthink that leads to really bad decision making. Group guilt is as bad as group pride.

Nice post Joan. Thanks. Good common sense.
-Frank

There's more on this, including an analysis of the core mistakes that underlie conservative positions generation after generation, in my article "Why Conservatives are Alwasy Wrong

LOL!

Well. I'm sure that Larry and Moe will head right over to read you, whatever about Jesus.

Your spelling is wrong, btw.

Just as being born in America means you typically don't have to worry about endemic third world diseases, being born white means you don't have to worry about a variety of bigotries and effects that would otherwise impact you.

Thus spake the rich white liberal. It really is guilt with you guys. Poor whites have to suffer for your sins, real and imagined.

our basic assumption seems to be that black people, by and large, don't have anything because they don't want to work hard for it or because they have misplaced priorities. That might be true about some small portion of that group, but I certainly don't think its anywhere near true for all (and I'm writing as a college educated black man who is about to start a master's program in the fall).


I can't help noticing that black people who come to America as adults and have not been brainwashed with stupid liberal theories manage to do very well for themselves, in spite of the alleged "racism" they allegedly face.

You probably haven't been pulled over for driving while white.


Dear God, you people are stupid.

Why is it that when this topic comes up, suddenly no white person posting (or their family) has EVER owned slaves. Its as if the slave owners all died off without having any heirs. If Obama can be related to Cheney, isn't it probable that most people do have a connection to slavery?

This is usually followed up with the "as recently as a thousand years ago, many Europeans were enslaved too". There is never any indication as to how these enslaved people fared. Did they shake off their bondage and succeed, or just die in poverty?

All these are just specious arguments. The crux is that many just don't want to accept that America (and you, its citizens) benefited from slavery and segregation, while many Blacks are still suffering from it.

Hey buddy, I have one question. How could someone who has no pre-Civil War American ancestors have any connection to slavery? Are you aware that many White Americans are of mostly Southern or Eastern European descent(these groups arrived in America after the Civil War and primarily settled in the North)?

The crux is that many just don't want to accept that America (and you, its citizens) benefited from slavery and segregation


No, the crux is that people like you need to demonstrate that what you allege is true, and not expect everyone else to simply nod their heads and agree with you. How, specifically, did I benefit from slavery and segregation?


All these are just specious arguments

The only specious argent being made here is your own.

Why should we suppose that the current arguments will look any better 50 years from now than 1950s conservative opposition to civil rights looks today?


Why should we suppose that liberal arguments on any topic will look any better a hundred years from now than the liberal position on eugenics does today? Your supposition seems to be that the liberals have always been right. In fact they have been on the wrong side of much of history, including their strange affection for communism.

James writes: "I can't help noticing that black people who come to America as adults and have not been brainwashed with stupid liberal theories manage to do very well for themselves, in spite of the alleged "racism" they allegedly face."

Some do, some don't, you shallow moron. And there are plenty of blacks born and raised in America who are far more successful than your ignorant ass will ever be - and they're still more likely to be pulled over by a cop for no good reason than you are.

Of course you're a moron and a bigot, so those simple facts don't strike you as important.

"The only specious argent being made here is your own."

"Your spelling is wrong, btw."

You're not just stupid, you're denser than Dumbya.

"Well. I'm sure that Larry and Moe will head right over to read you, whatever about Jesus."

Nice syntax, numbskull.

there are plenty of blacks born and raised in America who are far more successful than your ignorant ass will ever be

Really? How is that possible? What about all that racism? What about my "white skin privilege"?

they're still more likely to be pulled over by a cop for no good reason than you are


I'm sure you can provide copious documentation to demonstrate that blacks are pulled over for "no good reason" at a greater rate than whites. Otherwise, you'd be a lying moron. Oh, wait .....

The comment at 12:54 wasn't me. If this nonsense doesn't stop I'll post another one of my sexual fantasies under an assumed name.

James replies: "I'm sure you can provide copious documentation to demonstrate that blacks are pulled over for "no good reason" at a greater rate than whites. Otherwise, you'd be a lying moron. Oh, wait ....."

Since when do Repiglicans require actual evidence? You fuckers went to war in Iraq based on fantasies.

Do you actually know any cops? Ask one. It's not exactly a secret, chuckles. "Driving While Black" isn't a joke, it's a reality.

Since when do Repiglicans require actual evidence? You fuckers went to war in Iraq based on fantasies.

I think that in your own mindless and obnoxious way, you just said "No, I don't have the slightest bit of evidence for the garbage I spew." Thanks for the admission.


"Driving While Black" isn't a joke, it's a reality.


I guess I'm supposed to believe this because an anonymous commenter, the most stoopid anonymous commenter on the entire internet, tells me it is so.

I was pulled over while driving. I'm white. Clearly, I was pulled over for "driving while white".

Do YOU know any cops, you sorry sack of bilge?

Cicero -

I'm a girl. Or woman, I suppose, but I'm not a stickler on terminology.

Neither you nor your associates are "working class" as I think of it. Working class people clean your offices, make the sandwiches you eat for lunch, and put the tar on the roads you use to commute. In many parts of the country, these people are all members of racial minority groups. I live in one of those places now, and people here tend to equate the class divisions that exist with racial divisions. They merge the two categories.

But I've also lived in other parts of the country where all the people doing manual work are white. No race disparity, big class disparity. Urban, coastal Americans sometimes forget that these places still exist.

All I'm trying to do is point out that there's a big interest group out there that doesn't get a whole lot of air time among liberals. Well, except when liberals complain that there's something wrong with them. Among them are people who might be logical allies for some liberal programs, including some programs that would benefit racial minorities, so it's probably a bad idea for liberals to jerk them around.

The liberal guilt thing, as an elite phenomenon, has an element of this jerking around to it. Far better to look at how the interests of black families headed by lower-wage workers are a lot like the interests of white families headed by lower-wage workers, and to try to think of ways to help both groups improve their lot.

No, the crux is that people like you need to demonstrate that what you allege is true, and not expect everyone else to simply nod their heads and agree with you. How, specifically, did I benefit from slavery and segregation?


I didn't realize that this was controversial. You think America didn't benefit from slave labor? You do realize the role cotton played in America's economic rise? White Americans continued to benefit from segregation by not having to compete with a full labor force. Keeping blacks out of entry level blue collar/union jobs left more jobs for whites. Again, nothing controversial. Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't make it untrue. I just named 2 ways in which America (Whites) benefited. Why do I get the feeling that you still won't be satisfied?

I think all of the professionals are missing the point, while the commenters are getting the point.

Ron Rosenbaum's piece is decent, but he misses the essential locus of "liberal guilt," which is not simply "bad acts committed by the American government in the past / present" but in the unjust and unearned privileges enjoyed by those who gained from those "bad acts." Hence why Douthat says he feels more comfortable being "ashamed" of bad acts committed by the American government in the past than feeling "guilty" about bad acts committed by the American government in the past. Fine, but that misses the point entirely.

The real question of so-called "liberal guilt" is: Do some Americans enjoy unjust and unearned privileges from systematic (historical or present) bad behavior by the American government?

Now, what makes that allegedly liberal is the following flow chart of questions:

First, Do some Americans enjoy unjust and unearned privileges from systematic (historical or present) bad behavior by the American government? If yes, then the moral person who enjoys those privileges feels a sense of guilt or shame and moves to the next question.

Second, Do some Americans enjoy unjust and unearned burdens and barriers from systematic (historical or present) bad behavior by the American government? If yes, then the moral person in the position of power feels a sense of moral urgency and moves to the next question.

Third, Is there something that can be done on the personal level? This implies neither liberal nor conservative, but the moral person, feeling a sense of guilt and moral urgency, asks it, before moving to the next question.

And Fourth, Is there something that can be done on the policy level? This does imply liberal or conservative, as we understand it in the United States.

Finally, one could globalize these questions with respect to American power and human suffering around the world, and I think ethically we all have to ask ourselves those questions, but that about sums it up.

The post at 1:42 wasn't by me. I would never discredit my own arguments with profanity and juvenile name-calling.

"Fair point, but it ignores the fact that white Americans have privileges and immunities accruing to them solely in virtue of being born white. The flipside of the aristocracy of victims is the aristocracy of skin color that still exists. The privileges and immunities are granted, not in virtue of the sins suffered by one's forefather, but the sins committed.

That's white privilege in a nutshell, and recognizing it in oneself and feeling guilt as a response isn't irrational; it's a useful motivator to address existing inequities."

Posted by Justin JJ

I'm sorry friend but this statement, especially in modern America, is pure poppycock.

For many years I saved my money-often working multiple jobs concurrently. After 15 years I chose to go to college instead of buying some residential real estate. Working very diligently, I amassed over 70 credits in the first two years; all the while maintaining a nearly perfect grade point average. And let's be frank, I wasn't a disgruntled, mid-life crisis, basket weaving major; I was in the aerospace engineering program at a state university.

Surprisingly (or not), there were no scholarships available to me-in spite of our nations professed need for scientists and engineers. Several financial aide specialists on campus told me, off the record, that because I was a white male that the best they could do was refer me for loans-regardless of my demonstrated academic excellence.

I often sat in the central dining hall on campus working on assignments in between classes. Generally surrounded by minority students (P.G. county, Maryland is predominantly black) I often watched them play cards and lament how hard their entry level liberal arts courses were, or how many times thay had withdrawn and retaken courses. One day, as I listened to complaints about how confirming their financial aid status would get in the way of frittering away the afternoon, it became clear to me; I couldn't get tuition assistance to pursue a serious course of study-but there was plenty available so that these folks could recieve the education that they were "entitled" to by virtue of the color of their skin alone!

I don't doubt that there are folks that have taken advantage of the assistance that affirmative action, quota set-asides, and other entitlement programs have provided since the civil rights act. I also believe that nearly 50 years later this has contributed to the transformation of our society from a capitalistic meritocracy (overall) to more of a wealth redistributionist mediocracy; into a society where people are rewarded for being members of the "correct" demographic group.

The hard left has espoused the need to divide and conquer our society since the 1950's. Their success in co-opting black society for their own political gain has, in part, driven the modern doctrine of multi-culturalism. Among the central tenets of this twisted outlook are moral relativism (it's all good), and if somehow we only had one of each flavor involved in every group in the country it would automatically make for a better society.

But instead of bringing us all together, through their moral superiority and legislation, what they really have succeded in dividing us further. Not only do we have the classic marxist divide of class warfare, but also a tribalistc identity group struggle. And of course, only the government-staffed by a "diverse" group of left wing professional bureucrats-can make it "fair" for all. We just need to give them more of our wealth to redistribute........

This phony diversity and stilted multi-culturalism is anathema to the classic American ideals of freedom of thought, ideals, religion, amd expression. Indeed, the very idea of a "right" and "wrong" way of thinking stifles the very real fruits of American individualism; the divergent thought processes that are behing American ingenuity and the rich fabric of American culture.

Celebrating our individual ethnic and provincial backgrounds are fine; indeed they are at the very heart of the notion of our country as a federal republic. But in our haste to be a hyphenated American we must not lose sight of the fact that unless you are fresh off the boat you are an American first; after that comes any ethnic, religious, or racial loyalty.

The founding of our nation was not without it's problems. And, as many of these problems that have been solved over it's history many more have arisen. But, we must work through these together; not by pitting groups against each other. One of the most important slogans of our nation is "E pluribus unum" (out of many, one). If we don't remember this, and resolve to act in the common good (not communist!) then America's chickens will come home to roost!

Semper Fi
God Bless America

RXC asks a fine question, "Where's my privilege?" detailing what I will (hopefully fairly) characterize as a white ethnic working class life history.

First, unearned privilege should not imply great wealth or status or power, but simply any advantage that one did not earn. This might be as simple as society viewing you as "normal, mainstream, safe, American" while taking other people and, on the basis of their race or gender or religion, viewing those as "other, different, dangerous, foreign." Culturally, we see that all the time, and it manifests itself both in social status and in concrete, measurable things such as market behavior, hiring and firing, policing and criminal sentencing.

Second, privilege is often felt by those who lack it, that is, those who are perceived as different, other, and foreign. So while RXC may not feel any sense of privilege (and may, as a matter of ideology, refuse to believe it exists), the argument is perhaps RXC would be more likely to feel his privilege if he could empathize with those who lack it.

Politically, this is the sort of thing the Republicans have been dining out on for decades - the wedge that says that Democrats care not about white working class struggle, but only for inequalities based in minority identities. It's allegedly the square that Obama has to circle in this race.

And that is why Obama's speech on race - The More Perfect Union speech, I guess it is called - is so brilliant. Because it actually addresses RXC's concerns, instead of the bromides politicians usually offer. And what is Obama's argument - that the white working class and African American community should unite politically along class lines for common policy goals.

In other words, yes, RXC, you are not the paradigmatic case of "white privilege" or "male privilege" or even "American privilege." But so-called "liberal guilt" to rectify those unearned privileges is not a threat to you. It is part and parcel of a politics that will improve your life and the life of the African American living down the street from you.


Or so the argument goes.

RXC asks a fine question, "Where's my privilege?" detailing what I will (hopefully fairly) characterize as a white ethnic working class life history.

First, unearned privilege should not imply great wealth or status or power, but simply any advantage that one did not earn. This might be as simple as society viewing you as "normal, mainstream, safe, American" while taking other people and, on the basis of their race or gender or religion, viewing those as "other, different, dangerous, foreign." Culturally, we see that all the time, and it manifests itself both in social status and in concrete, measurable things such as market behavior, hiring and firing, policing and criminal sentencing.

Second, privilege is often felt by those who lack it, that is, those who are perceived as different, other, and foreign. So while RXC may not feel any sense of privilege (and may, as a matter of ideology, refuse to believe it exists), the argument is perhaps RXC would be more likely to feel his privilege if he could empathize with those who lack it.

Politically, this is the sort of thing the Republicans have been dining out on for decades - the wedge that says that Democrats care not about white working class struggle, but only for inequalities based in minority identities. It's allegedly the square that Obama has to circle in this race.

And that is why Obama's speech on race - The More Perfect Union speech, I guess it is called - is so brilliant. Because it actually addresses RXC's concerns, instead of the bromides politicians usually offer. And that is Obama's argument - that the white working class and African American community should unite politically along class lines for common policy goals.

In other words, yes, RXC, you are not the paradigmatic case of "white privilege" or "male privilege" or even "American privilege." But so-called "liberal guilt" to rectify those unearned privileges is not a threat to you. It is part and parcel of a politics that will improve your life and the life of the African American living down the street from you.


Or so the argument goes.

Privilege remains invisible to the privileged.

"Working class people clean your offices, make the sandwiches you eat for lunch, and put the tar on the roads you use to commute. In many parts of the country, these people are all members of racial minority groups."

In MOST parts of the country (outside some parts of the Deep South, Southern California, South Florida and some expensive urban areas like Atlanta and DC), there are White working-class and low-income people.
There are parts of the country (e.g. Appalachia and much of the "Rust Belt") where such people make up the majority of the population.
If upper-middle-class liberals try to lecture working-class Whites about their "white privilege", they will accomplish nothing.
Obama, despite his condescending comments about this demographic, understands this. Too bad some commenters here do not.

Politically, this is the sort of thing the Republicans have been dining out on for decades - the wedge that says that Democrats care not about white working class struggle, but only for inequalities based in minority identities. It's allegedly the square that Obama has to circle in this race.

Yes, I'm sure the Democrats never preach any racial hate to blacks in the pursuit of political power. Please, get a little self-awareness.

The real question of so-called "liberal guilt" is: Do some Americans enjoy unjust and unearned privileges from systematic (historical or present) bad behavior by the American government?


And the answer is "No". Unless you are picking on Ted Kennedy.

Second, Do some Americans enjoy unjust and unearned burdens and barriers from systematic (historical or present) bad behavior by the American government?

And again, the answer is "No".


Finally, one could globalize these questions with respect to American power and human suffering around the world

One could, and again the answer would be "No".

James replies: "I was pulled over while driving. I'm white. Clearly, I was pulled over for "driving while white".

Do YOU know any cops, you sorry sack of bilge?"

Yes. In fact, I know the one who pulled you over, and he says it wasn't because you were white. It was because the transvestite that was gobbling your undersized unit was black.

I hope that helps answer your questions.

First, it is contrary to American notions of equality that anyone should have privileges or immunities accruing to them by reason of birth.

Funny that, but I find it odd that white, college-educated liberals don't take this to heart and seek out mates who are working class, or high school drop-outs. The assortative mating they practice, in which they seek out similarly educated mates, definitely gives their children privileges solely by reason of birth.

It has taken me some time to figure out, but I finally realize where I have heard the "born to privilege, and therefore guilty" trope before - it is merely the orginal sin doctrine from the Bible.

I don't buy into this stuff from the Bible, and I sure don't buy into it when it comes from self-absorbed leftists.

It is just a word game to throw this onto people who can't/don't think for themselves, and who believe it because it comes out sounding so....nice. Reading Tomtom's comments, I would speculate that he is either a minister or a psychologist or lawyer or some other profession where success depends on ability to convince with words (salesmen also fit into this). I on the other hand, am a simple, inarticulate engineer. So my objections, which are based simply on reason and logic, without any appeal to emotion, or use of rhetoric, falls pretty flat.

I won't go on. This is a religious question, and being a non-religious person, I don't have time to argue over how "justice" could be achieved in an ideal world. The world is not perfect, people do things that they should not, and they will always behave thus. Get over it.

James, really, let it go. While it could be argued that racial injustice isn't at the fever pitch described by some, your attempt to claim its all some liberal bugbear made from whole cloth doesn't allow one to take your argument seriously.

As for Joan, get back to me with those conservative policy proposals to 'level the playing field,' rather than simply calling for an end to AA. Until the right articulates a reasonable alternative, can the empty rhetoric.

RXC,

Fair enough. Ross, on the other hand, is a Christian, as am I, and as are most Americans (at least in theory). There is some question, therefore, if Ross, me, and American society in general accept the notion of corporate guilt when it comes to original sin, whether we should not also accept it with regard to 'white liberal guilt'.

Perhaps those who now favor discrimination on the basis of race are the ones who should feel guilt for the behaviour of those who committed racial discrimination in the past. African-Americans who support affirmative action could expiate their sin by taking themselves out of the pool of beneficiaries, while afflicted White People could volunteer their own kid's place at Yale.

RXC states that "justice" is a normative goal rooted in something akin to religion - I'd only state that all political norms are like that - liberty, justice, equality, fairness, etc. One does not avoid some of these grand normative questions on the basis of "I don't do religion" without avoiding all of these questions.

But now we're pretty far from the conversation at hand.

Bushpig! Bushpig! Bushpig! Bushpig! Bushpig!

That post at 3:47 wasn't me. Between 3 AM and 5 AM I was composing a short story for a website that specializes in erotica involving transvestites and Repiglican traffic cops. The semi-autobiographical narrator is a frustrated middle-aged man who realizes that he needs to satisfy his sadomasochistic urges by the side of the road, not online. I feel it's both a creative and a therapeutic breakthrough for me.

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