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A History of Theodicy

05 Jun 2008 04:45 pm

Inspired by James Wood's latest litany of eloquent complaints against the God in whom he doesn't believe, here's something I'd like to see: A history of popular theodicy, tracing the influence of the "argument from the existence of evil" against belief in God (or the Christian God, at least) throughout the course of Western history. It's my impression - and it's only an impression, which is why I'd like to see someone do the necessary intellectual spadework to refute it or back it up - that this argument has gained increasing currency even as our material conditions have dramatically improved; which is to say, the less suffering a particular population experiences, the more likely the suffering it does experience will be cited as evidence against the existence of a benevolent deity. (Or put another way, you're more likely to hear New Yorker writers wax indignant about how the existence of human misery precludes their believing in God than you are to hear the same argument from people in slightly less comfortable positions.)

I can think of various reasons why this might be so. There's the correlation-causation possibility: Atheism in general has become more prevalent as material conditions have improved in the West and science has demystified large swathes of the natural world, and since the problem of evil is one of the stronger arguments for atheism, you'd expect it to be cited more often in a more atheistic age. (Wood gestures at this notion in his essay when he remarks that "nowadays, theodicy always has a wary eye on the theological exit: this makes no sense, therefore I will have to reject the idea of God. But there was no such exit before about 1700, at the very earliest.") Or it could have something to do with mass media and instantaneous communication, which expand (and emphasize, since if it bleeds it leads) the range of tragedies that educated people are exposed to on a daily basis. (Wood opens his essay, tellingly, by reading off a roll of tragic headlines from a single copy of the New York Times.) It could have something to do with the scale of inhumanity that modern technology makes possible: Thus the reasonably-convincing argument, for instance, that the experience of two world wars and the Holocaust has been a crucial factor in Europe's abandonment of God. Or it could reflect something inherent in our psychology, which makes suffering seem like more of an absolute injustice the less we actually experience it.

I don't know the answer, or even if the thesis is correct - but I'd love to see someone investigate the question.

Comments (175)

Along with demystification, life is more fair than it was for premodern people.

If you're unfortunate enough that someone comes by and murders you or steals your stuff, or if there's a flood or something that messes up your house, or if you don't have enough to eat, there's a baseline expectation that that's unfair and unusual.

When everyone was a bad crop away from near-starvation, it seemed more important to stay on the good side of invisible, omnipotent beings, rather than to wonder aloud if they might not exist.

I think your first impression is close... but would add that with increasing suffering comes an increased need for salvation, and therefore a willingness to overlook the theodicy problem. If I'm living each day in misery and pain, "Why does God let this happen?" is much less important than "God, get me out of here!", especially if you see yourself as powerless and at the mercy of whatever supreme being might be around. Such a person doesn't consider atheism, because there's no upside to believing your fate to be in your own hands.

In addition to reason 1 cited by Ross, the issue is the contrast between the high quality of life for some and the suffering of others. In other words, when life was cheaper people had a higher tolerance for the suffering of others. Now the absurdity of that type of suffering stands out more.

I agree that it would make an interesting (although very challenging) topic for study. Just a couple of comments.
First, from a theological perspective, I have never understood why the problem of evil or suffering is an argument against God. I understand why it is an argument against a good God, in terms of what we understand "good" to mean. But I don't understand why it is an argument against an evil God, or a God whose purposes are beyond our comprehension to understand.
Second, I think that the problem of evil is not really all that popular an argument for atheism. From what I can tell, most atheists (including a number of your critics on this blog) appear to argue against God and religion because (1) they think religious people are awful and do awful things (maybe that is the problem of evil redescribed?) and (2) the whole idea of a supreme supernatural being is silly and unnecessary to explain anything about the world (I would put myself in this camp. The problem of evil I think is rather one that religious people struggle with, rather than one that aetheists resort to all that much. Of course, one of the good reasons to pursue the study you suggest would be to put these musings to an empirical test.
I have more thoughts, but enough rambling for now.

I don't know how James Wood deals with the paradox that he himself is a god among writers.

Sorry, gushing fanboy.

One function of religion is to provide some kind of control over your situation. That is why popular religion tends toward the formulaic rather than the spiritualy profound. The person living on the edge wants to solicit help from the deity, often as an economic transaction.

Once we are advantaged to the point where we feel we have a large portion of control in our own lives we are free look objectively at the lack of discernable results from appealing to god.

Ross I would recommend "Evil in Modern Thought" by Susan Neiman. I don't know if this is exactly what you are looking for, but she argues that you can hardly address much of the history of Western Philosophy apart from tracing the history of theodicy. Not much to speak of before 1700 apart from isolated quotes of infidels... but so much of philosophy AND popular history in the past century reveals a number of ill fated attempts to resolve theodicy by imputing the blame for both natural and moral evils upon God as well as upon fellow people.

j

I'm a long-time atheist and I've never used the problem of evil as an argument because it's exceedingly weak. I do like to point out how utterly retarded it is for theists to thank sky fairies for good fortune, though - as though they were being favored over other mortals on purpose.

That said I don't see how a rational, decent person can read the Bible and not be disgusted by (at least) the god of the Old Testament, who is such a complete rat-bastard that it's mind-boggling - the fucker is like Sauron on steroids.

"Or put another way, you're more likely to hear New Yorker writers wax indignant about how the existence of human misery precludes their believing in God than you are to hear the same argument from people in slightly less comfortable positions."

Ross seems to be making a tacit assumption that New Yorker writers are somehow less prone to suffering than a person with a "slightly less" comfortable (ie. lucrative) career. There is no evidence for this; if anything, there is evidence for the contrary. People with literary minds tend to suffer depression with greater frequency than the rest of the population.

Or to put a different spin on the first two comments, Job had to be blessed with wealth and comfort in the first place before he could blame his subsequent suffering on God. Otherwise he just would have thought that life is lousy and unfair. But then again, the Book of Job is a distinctly uninspiring work of theodicy.

As far as Ross's observations about modern technology and mass media... we've now reached a point where nearly all of the tragedy and (so-called) inhumanity in our world can be directly traced to the actions of humans. Earthquakes and tsunamis may be termed "acts of God" despite the available scientific explanations, but guns, bombs, plane crashes, and death camps don't prompt supernatural musing. Few contemporary theologians would have us believe that planes crash when God becomes displeased with an airline and withdraws his protection. They crash because people screw up.

So once the problem of evil is correctly diagnosed as the problem of living in a world with fault lines and chaotic weather systems and imperfect machinery and people with neurological disorders and bad attitudes, the only thing we can really blame on God is his initial decision to create a deeply flawed world full of deeply flawed creatures and pointlessly dangerous design features that any competent omnipotent engineer would have been able to avoid. Sure, a bright theologian can write a stirring apology for such a God. But it's much simpler to write him out of the story altogether.

Wood's metaphor of "turning around and around the stripped screw of theological scholastics" is quite apt.

Ross,

As I understand it the problem of evil was widely used against orthodox Christianity during both the early Christian and the medieval periods, by the Zoroastrians, the Manichaeans and various Christian heretics. The difference between the dissenters of the past and the dissenters of today was that those in previous centuries who raised the problem of evil typically didn't solve the problem by becoming atheists- instead they sought intellectual refuge in some type of dualistic cosmology, which for all its other problems does solve the problem of evil. Zoroastrians for example argued that evil was hard to explain in the face of an omnipotent God, but they solved the problem by positing an equal and opposite evil force that was opposed to God.

This is quite reasonable. The problem of evil isn't an argument against religion and for atheism. It is properly speaking an argument against God's omnipotence, and it can be solved either by qualifying God's omnipotence (as the Mandaeans, Zoroastrians, Cathars and others did) or by a combination of the free will and ontological arguments (as orthodox Christians did).

To resolve the problem of evil by resort into _atheism_ is not just unwarranted but logically absurd. I've always felt that the existence of evils like Hitler and that Liberian cannibal warlord actually provide a remarkable evidence of the existence of God. Hitler is impossible to explain without positing a devil, and a devil makes no sense without a God to oppose it, therefore God must necessarily exist.

...the Book of Job is a distinctly uninspiring work of theodicy.

The Book of Job is an unrelenting attack on the very idea of theodicy. The "rodomontade" (Renan's word, I believe) of God's speech to Job from out of the whirlwind is not an attempt at theodicy at all.

Hector says: "Hitler is impossible to explain without positing a devil, and a devil makes no sense without a God to oppose it, therefore God must necessarily exist."

This bullshit again? What you mean is "impossible for you." And since you were raised with this handy-dandy all-purpose bogeyman to blame, you really didn't need to go very far for your explanation, did you?

"The devil made me do it." Jesus H Christ, Hector, the entirety of your god-proof is a fucking old punchline!

Hector: "To resolve the problem of evil by resort into _atheism_ is not just unwarranted but logically absurd. I've always felt that the existence of evils like Hitler and that Liberian cannibal warlord actually provide a remarkable evidence of the existence of God. Hitler is impossible to explain without positing a devil, and a devil makes no sense without a God to oppose it, therefore God must necessarily exist."

Is this argument a joke? Hilter is impossible to explain without the devil (and this coming from a Christian that believes in free will)? The existence of an evil deity presupposes an all-powerful good deity? A stunning series of unconnected assertions.

P.S. I endorse LaFollette Progressive's post above: well-said, sir.

Hadley: "The Book of Job is an unrelenting attack on the very idea of theodicy. The "rodomontade" (Renan's word, I believe) of God's speech to Job from out of the whirlwind is not an attempt at theodicy at all."

The theodicy is that God's actions are incomprehensible to mere human beings and we have no right to question him Almightyness. As LaFollette Progressive said, it's not a very good one.

By the way, Douthat's original post is a good one. A history of theodicy is something I'd like to see too.

Korha,

No, the (implicit) theodicy in the Book of Job is that the world must necessarily contain evil since the world must be imperfect. If the world was perfect it would be indistinguishable from God, and therefore would not exist as something separate from Him. Evil is what we call those aspects of the world where God's will is less evident. You can't draw a picture without distinguishing light and dark, nor can you have a world without distinguishing good and evil. This is not necessarily a theodicy with which I agree but it is certainly an intellectually respectable one.

Moe, I was raised an atheist, actually. Then I found that atheism was intellectually unconvincing.

I'm not sure what you found unconvincing. I just proved on the basis of pure logic that a devil, and hell, must necessarily exist.

It seems to me that if you follow the proposition "the presence of evil in this world proves that there is no God" to its logical conclusion, you end up with "because this world is not perfect (heaven on earth), there is no God." In fact, Mark Twain used the household fly to argue against God. From this starting point, any annoyance, no matter how slight, can be used to disprove God. So if God had the power to make this, our home, heaven on earth, why didn't He? Why didn't God make you and me, and our world, perfect from the start? Or, did He?

Hector replies: "I was raised an atheist, actually. Then I found that atheism was intellectually unconvincing."

Of course it is, Hector, since it's not trying to convince anyone of anything. But no matter what you were raised as you were familiar with the notion of a devil.

"I'm not sure what you found unconvincing. I just proved on the basis of pure logic that a devil, and hell, must necessarily exist."

Well, no, you just proved that you have either a shallow intellect or a world-class ability to fool yourself - perhaps both. In any event it was amusing to watch.

It's posts and comments like this one that comfort me in my times of doubt, and reassure me that there is no evidence of god existing, much less caring.

This is what amateur theologists do in the spare time? engage in mental masturbation about the problem of evil? jeepers, do something useful in your spare time, like volunteer work at the local VA.

The planet is filled with Doubting Thomases. Billions worship a non-Christian god. Thomas got his own personal visit; why can't the rest of us get the same treatment?

For this atheist, the real problem isn't evil, it's faith. Every single religion that I'm aware of demands faith from its adherents, and nobody's yet demonstrated to my satisfaction (except my wife) that they deserve to receive it.

Hector: "No, the (implicit) theodicy in the Book of Job is that the world must necessarily contain evil since the world must be imperfect."

Whose interpretation is this? I mean, I could see that theodicy made by somebody, but how is this the message of the Book of Job exactly? God fucks around with Job for no justifiable reason, actively creating more evil and suffering in the world, and then in defense tells his faithful servant to sit down and shut up because His Ways are mysterious and incomprehensible to mere mortals... this has nothing to do with any "best of all possible worlds" claptrap. Your interpretation of Job is crap.

I'll have a go.

I think the "argument from the existence of evil" gains more currency the more a society comes to appreciate and rely on its ability to control its own worldly outcomes. This sets up something of a paradox: the more control we gain over our environment - the more we stabilize our food and energy sources, and our standard of living - the more we appreciate that such control has carried us further and further outside the natural, "God-created" order. This order used to be thought of as the Nature in harmony with itself, but for our own prosperity we had no choice but to get out of tune with it. We come, consciously or not, to perceive that original harmonic order as evil, or at least against us and our interests. For example, no one wants to be slave to the vicissitudes of the changing weather; we invent better irrigation and such to overcome it. When Nature does reassert itself in the form of a devastating earthquake or typhoon, we're brutally reminded again of exactly what we've always been struggling to cope with and overcome. We're ultimately powerless before Nature yet still tantalized by the possibility of triumphing over it. Our sense of its unjustness increases along with our level of isolation from its harmful effects. Whereas those who indulge in fewer hopes of living outside of natural forces, because of their inability to do so, are thereby less likely to perceive this friction, and more likely to resort to whatever theodicy makes sense out of it for them.

As for all the evils caused by man, well, no one can blame God for that without rejecting the necessity of freewill to any comprehensible theodicy.

One follow-up. Ross writes:

which is to say, the less suffering a particular population experiences, the more likely the suffering it does experience will be cited as evidence against the existence of a benevolent deity. (Or put another way, you're more likely to hear New Yorker writers wax indignant about how the existence of human misery precludes their believing in God than you are to hear the same argument from people in slightly less comfortable positions.)

Probably, though, the New Yorker writer would not be writing about his own misery. He and his particular population may experience less suffering, but that could be exactly what gives him the perspective to call the unfair suffering of other populations evil. Not every prosperous person will be led to this conclusion of course; just the more thoughtful & empathetic ones. Many simply replace their reliance on God with a reliance on ever more prosperity, and deny his existence that way.

Timothy Keller's recent book, The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism is a superb book of Christian apologetics that deals squarely and respectfully with Dawkins, Dennett, Harriss, and Hitchens. Keller modestly calls the book "Mere Christianity for Dummies," though he is remarkably well read in literature, theology, and philosophy. In many ways it is a sophisticated update of Lewis.

Keller, a Presbyterian pastor, founded a church in Manhattan that serves mainly a young group of about 6,000 smart people in Manhattan. The church is orthodox Christian with no guitar strumming or Rock and Roll or any other mega-church pizazz.

Another recommendation would be John Paul II's encyclicals, Faith and Reason and The Splendor of Truth.

Any of these volumes provide plenty of theodicy to chew on.

You might try Joseph Kelly's "The Problem of Evil in the Western Tradition," or the introductory essays by Hvidt, Tilley, Southgate and Robinson, in "Physics and Cosmology: Scientific Perspectives on the Problem of Natural Evil."

the problem isn't that belief in God is illogical--not int he slightest. The big bang supports an idea of a god, and the presence of evil does little to disprove a god--it merely disproves that God is exactly how you'd like Him to be.

no, the problem today is atheism. Atheism is the belief that there is no God; there is nothing. This is inherently illogical--you can't prove the existence of nothing. Atheists assert that no higher power exists--and that is a belief. Atheism, far from being opposed to religion, actually requires the same blind faith that most religions assert--except with the extremely illogical consequence that, unlike a theist, an atheist can never be proven right.

Most modern atheists are merely thumbing their noses at religion and trying to join a club they perceive as opposed to religion--when really, they are merely conforming to a new belief system that still requires the same thought as the old, except much stupider. Much like the goth in high school who dresses like every other goth and listens to goth music and reads goth materials, they conform their noncomformity. And most illogically, because while the popular kids conform to their groups because of the benefits of it, goths conform to their group to merely spite those who rub them the wrong way.

A true intellectual who did not believe God existed would be an agnostic. Agnostics leave an open mind--like a true intellectual person who is unconvinced does. They aren't stupid enough to assert "there is nothing!"; they realize that there may be something or nothing, but no avenue need be left closed out of sheer obstinate hate of theism.

Now, little atheists, start your clusterfuck.

jack M. says: "no, the problem today is atheism. Atheism is the belief that there is no God; there is nothing. This is inherently illogical--you can't prove the existence of nothing. Atheists assert that no higher power exists--and that is a belief."

That's simplistic grade school bullshit that just shows you're rather stupid, jacko. I've been an atheist and I don't insist or assert that there is no god/higher power or that one is impossible. I have no belief in one, and I see no evidence for one, but I consider the argument to be moot until there's some reason to revisit it.

Of course certain human conceptions of god just don't pass the laugh test - I include the Christian god in that category.

The term "agnostic" is exceptionally useless. All agnostics are actually atheistic - meaning they lack a belief - unless of course they're the sorts of spineless idiots who waffle back and forth from day to day.

If you were familiar with the intellectual discussions of atheism you'd already be familiar with these distinctions. Since you're not, you're oh-so-plainly taling out of your ass.

And one more thing - I don't hate theism. I've always been fascinated by mythology and the peculiar things people believe.

LaFollette - I might accept Wood's "stripped screw" metaphor if he struck me as the sort of person who'd ever had to turn a screw, or hammer a nail, or do anything else but write and sneer.

The sentence works better to describe atheists' attempts to disprove God - precisely because the apologetics he detests are always teaching us that belief is reasonable, that the demystifying of the universe shows us how, not why, and does not prove to us that no "why" exists.

It's a standstill in your materialist world, and if you have an argument that isn't at least several hundred years old, and hasn't been recited by college freshmen for a century and a half, I'm willing to listen.

Ferrell is full of shit: "It's a standstill in your materialist world, and if you have an argument that isn't at least several hundred years old, and hasn't been recited by college freshmen for a century and a half, I'm willing to listen."

Since all theistic arguments are also at least that old, why should anyone listen to you?

No argument can prove the existence of your sky fairy, any more than an argument could prove the existence of leprechauns. And on the other side, of course no one can prove leprechauns, sky fairies, or the Silver Surfer do not exist.

If your arguments actually proved jackshit you wouldn't need faith at all. That you silly theists still insist on your voila! moments simply show how weak your faith is. I'm happy enough pointing such things out - I certainly feel no need, ever to "prove" there is no higher power. There's just never been any evidence for one substantive enough to bother with.

I feel the same way about ghosts and the Loch Ness Monster.

According to Keller, all doubts are alternative forms of belief.

Now, as a lawyer, I'm pretty comfortable with mangling the English language. But saying that a "doubt" is a "belief" is simply nonsense. What's worse, it seeks to blur the distinction between reason and faith.

Last I checked, planes flew and atom bombs exploded with great force due to applications of reason, not faith.

MoeLarry, it would be easier to dislike you if you weren't funny. But you are in the Ann Coulter mold.

So am I. James Wood is a tool.

This is not strictly theodicy, but I want to point out that the anti-religionists has a very hypocritical tag-team approach to Religion:

If there is some event that is bad that can be tied to religion (for example, wars where the claimed reason was religious difference), they make a humanist argument that Religion is Bad and must be stamped out.

If there is something that is good that can be tied to religion (for example, charity work, social harmony, etc..) they claim that Religion is the product of a 'social evolution' of sorts, i.e., communities which adopted religion were more successful than those that didn't. Thus, with Bayesian reasoning, they claim that these good things that stem from Religion are actually an argument against the truth of Religion.

They never say that a bad thing stemming from Religion is an argument for the existence of God, and they never say that a good thing stemming from Religion is an argument to keep it going.

Andrew Berman writes: "If there is something that is good that can be tied to religion (for example, charity work, social harmony, etc..) they claim that Religion is the product of a 'social evolution' of sorts, i.e., communities which adopted religion were more successful than those that didn't. Thus, with Bayesian reasoning, they claim that these good things that stem from Religion are actually an argument against the truth of Religion."

That would be a very stupid argument indeed, but I have never seen anyone make it.

I don't really see the point of your post. I could list dozens of fucking moronic theist arguments off the top of my head, but what would that prove? Nothing at all.

(Hector's "Hitler was evil, therefore god exists" argument would be near the top of the list.)

I don't really like Ross's angle, although I still think Wood's argument is nonsense. The improvement of material conditions correlating with a rise of popular theodic arguments is just a correlation. We assume that people suffered more in the past because of lower life expectancies, less wealth and more infectious diseases, but that doesn't necessarily have an impact on happiness/morale because people in the past had higher expectations for disease and rarely contemplated the possibility of living beyond a certain age or the ability of accumulating the kind of wealth they can today. So, even if there is a correlation, it's just that: a correlation. No proven causality. Nothing really interesting about it.

Now, advances in medical science and living conditions does probably correlate with a better understanding of the natural world and an increased awareness of material disparity and the fortunate hindsight of looking back and saying, "yeah, it'd really suck getting smallpox. How could God let that happen?" Which is to say that people don't really have much respect for the past no matter what their view on this particular issue is.

A number of people have already alluded to this, but I agree again that prosperous atheists using evil as proof against the existence of God only show that they can’t even grasp the correct meaning of ‘teleology’: the existence of evil relates to questions about the character of a God who might exist, not to whether God is actually out there.
But I will give them points for consistency. If it is the existence of evil that disproves God, then it makes sense that they believe that anyone who can (or who promises to) abolish evil might be God returning - to whit, Marx, Mao, Obama, etc.

Here's an interesting twist I've heard on the "evil lets us better appreciate good" argument:

Imagine a perfect world where no evil existed (an "Eden" if you will, a paradise of ignorance and bliss). What sort of virtues would exist in that world? Happiness, joy, peace, serenity, love, kindness, etc. All good things, natch.

But when the potentiality for evil exists, it also introduces a whole variety of other virtues that would otherwise have no reason to exist. Patience, sacrifice, courage, hope, loyalty, compassion, charity, perseverance, etc are all deeper virtues that would not exist in an evil-free world.

ὁ λαὸς ὁ καθήμενος ἐν σκότει φῶς εἶδεν μέγα

Why is the existence of evil such a hurdle for ego-centric human beings attempts to acknowledge their Origins? Evil, suffering, injustice, unrequited karma, etc - are at the heart of reason our souls/spirits/consciousness decided to materialize in the first place. Without these negative aspects of existence how could we ever learn through experience? Etheric beings conceal very little and forget nothing. Materialized beings forget everything even if they retain their higher dimensional consciousness in nascent form which they, typically re-aquire, through materialized experience. Even uber-high dimensional beings such as Lord Jesus, Lord Buddha and others who incarnated to teach mankind proper conduct have to go through materialized experiences before they can enlighten us with their divinity. Forgetting all prior memories of their souls existence is essential for this process to yield meaningful increases in consciousness. This applies to all beings, wherever they lie on the consciousness continuum. The ego is our inheritance from the Animals Kingdom -- where so called evil is basically the rule. Overcoming evil advances each beings consciousness. How much have we all learned from pain and suffering? Until we realize the canonized Gospels are corrupt we're never going to have a rational cosmology. In the Gnostic Gospels and The Dead Sea Scrolls Jesus teaches the concept of re-incarnation. Things start making since when you dip into the "apocryphal" gospels. That said, I think the reason people don't accept God as their origin because they don't want to accept the commandment to love everyone and everything. God is love, period. Must of us our to cowardly to embrace this oh so simple of ideas.

Citizen Grim writes: "But when the potentiality for evil exists, it also introduces a whole variety of other virtues that would otherwise have no reason to exist. Patience, sacrifice, courage, hope, loyalty, compassion, charity, perseverance, etc are all deeper virtues that would not exist in an evil-free world."

I guess you didn't read the final page of the Wood article, where that point is addressed in a way. He makes the point that in the Christian Heaven the capacity for evil (and so for choice) would be drained from the residents - and therefore the 'deeper virtues' you list would never come up.

It's the most interesting part of the article as I see it.

It's always struck me how vague the Christian conception of heaven is - seems like they'll just be laying around all blissed out waiting for their number to be called when it's their turn to give Yahweh a prostate massage.

Wood's strongest point (articulated better elsewhere) is that the scale of human suffering impugns the Free Will Defense. God could have easily created a world in which we could act freely as moral agents - yet this world would lack the murderous freedoms and systemic cataclysms that allow the existence of Hitlers, Stalins, tsunamis, child-rapists.

The existence of Free Will does not require that a Holocaust be within the realm of potentiality.

Disagree, do you? But as Schopenhauer retorts to Leibniz, even if the world we currently inhabit were the best of all possible worlds, God created both the world "and also the possibility itself, accordingly he should have arranged this with a view to its admitting of a better world."

Read more here: http://www.powells.com/review/2006_12_14.html

Bryan Hollingshead writes: "Must of us our to cowardly to embrace this oh so simple of ideas."

I don't know who's watching the door, but can you do a better job of keeping out the mental patients?

First Terry Ann, now her boyfriend. Next thing you know Alan Keyes will show up.

Certainly it would be an interesting history, but this post reveals more about Ross's biases than anything else.

First, as noted above, there is a long intellectual history of heretics and orthodox Christians addressing this problem.

Second, of course we read writers complaining -- who else would we read? But I have heard plenty of stories of ordinary people who cursed God when their mother died, lost their faith after a tragedy, never set foot in a church again, etc.

Third, how we would we know what the vast majority of population a thousand years ago thought of the problem? I'd guess they didn't believe in an omnipotent God and/or did believe in devils, but who knows?

MoeLarry writes: "It's always struck me how vague the Christian conception of heaven is - seems like they'll just be laying around all blissed out waiting for their number to be called when it's their turn to give Yahweh a prostate massage."

I sometimes wonder if the Bible is so ambiguous in its description of heaven that Christians down through history cherrypicked from other sources to fill in the blanks... and as a result, the commonly-held conception of heaven is just that: Common. Bland. Uninspired. Implausible.

In these discussions "God" is often used interchangeably with "The God of Christianity" and I wonder if that's always useful.

Although I've never been much concerned with there being evil and a good Christian God, even if I were the issue doesn't say anything about the concept of God itself.

In the generic a transcendent being that's omnipotent and omniscient could be morally ambiguous or indifferent. The High God in old Chinese folklore was generally beneficient, but I don't think he was seen as purely benevolent. Neither were many of the Hindu gods.

Likewise I'm not sure why getting rid of God makes matters much better on suffering or evil. Fine you don't have to worry about some alleged contradiction, but the actual horrible things still happen. Is solving a logic puzzle that helpful when your kids died in a school collapse or when you're powerless and alone? Does being atheist somehow make evil and bad things more bearable? Why?

@MLaJ: Sorry, but atheism isn't simply some divine placeholder - by its very definition, it is an active, directed opposition to belief in a higher power.

Using the word 'atheist,' when what you actually mean is 'agnostic,' just muddies the waters of language. To use an example, lets just say the Rapture were to happen tomorrow. If I were to attempt to predict the actions of a Christian, an agnostic, and an atheist, there would be a few problems. The Christian's actions would be easy, as his beliefs would be vindicated. The agnostic would obviously accept that his ambivalent stance would no longer be tenable, and accept the divine presence. Based on your definition, you would cease to be an atheist thereafter, and would also accept God's existence - you describe this stance as atheism. However, what term would then be used to describe someone who obstinately refused to acknowledge God even in the face of overwhelming evidence? Well, that would be a true atheist - however, your about-face throughout this event would mean that you are, in fact, an agnostic.

Deal with it, friend.

The term "agnostic" is exceptionally useless. All agnostics are actually atheistic - meaning they lack a belief - unless of course they're the sorts of spineless idiots who waffle back and forth from day to day.

Or, perhaps it could mean they're still searching for a belief that fits their particular worldview.

Its really not that hard.

As for using atheism as a catch-all for skeptics, well, l2dictionary.

The source of the growth of theodicy-talk really is the improvement of our material lives.

As we become safer, more prosperous, freer than ever from the disaster, war, poverty and human cruelty, it becomes less convincing to say that the presence of pain and suffering is the result of human evil, or distance from God. It becomes obvious that pain is our inheritance and the certainty of pain part of our nature, regardless of how well human circumstances are going.

The very experience of love comes coupled with the certainty of loss. With nothing human to blame, this leaves us facing the fact that sorrow and misery are inevitable. We are frail and mortal, and we naturally have it in us to love others who are also frail and mortal. So we love, lose and suffer, love, lose and suffer. The whole thing eventually starts to look like very unintelligent design.

The richer and safer we are, the less chance there is anyone else to blame *but* God. I think that is the experience driving the explosion of theodicy in middle-brow thinking. I have yet to discover an intellectually-satisfying response to this. So I've just come to assume that though there is a God, he obviously has no concern for our actual experience. What his purpose is, I wouldn't dare to guess. Charles Krauthammer said in an interview (rough quote): I don't believe in God, but I fear him greatly. That's where the culture is headed, I suspect. And fear is commonly expressed as hatred, hence the new batch of angry atheists.

MoeLarryAndJesus,

I realize you're a hard-boiled rationalist tough guy and all, but I think your post about my post was shallow and mean-spirited -- even for one who gets off on putting others down. I'll grant my post was a bit on the sappy side, but should sentimentality axiomatically consign someone to the loony bin? I don't much like my post in hindsight, but would you not agree the notion of re-incarnation -- as taught by Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, et al -- places the supposed problem of theodicy in a different light? Moreover, does the notion that all beings (plants, animals, humans, aliens) exist to have experiences and learn from them not alter the framework of the debate? And would this experiential process not lead to a growth in consciousness? Here I think the crude but useful metaphor of consciousness being like software and bodily forms being like hardware is illustrative. So illustrative, in fact, I'd like to stretch it bit further: would the notion of God not be more comprehendable if we think of all conscious being nodes in network under-girded by a universal field of consciousness (like a database) recording all mentations that occur within the universe? I put these ideas forward because that's were the scientific tide is heading, in spite of the frantic protestations of dogmatic materialists like yourself. One day someone much more patient than I will weave together the insights from quantum mechanics, chaos theory, fractal geometry, non-linear dynamics, holographic mathematics, etc -- and we will have our long sought for science of metaphysics. I suggest not waiting for the confirmation. The real cause and effect dynamic of the universe is love -- as the masters have told us repeatedly -- whether it pays you back in this life or another. I say again with as much sappiness as I can muster: God is Love!

Who knew Ross was such a Marxist...??

I've always failed to see what's spineless about agnosticism. It's just an admission of uncertainty, big deal. It doesn't mean you waffle every other day, and besides where would be the shame in waffling about something so apparently portentous and fraught with mystery. The dictionary defines atheism as a belief that there is no capital-G God. I don't see how that isn't a positive assertion. It doesn't mean "proceeding as though God does not exist," "indifference to God," or "refusing to affirmatively believe in an admittedly possible God." It's an assertion that there is no God. But MoeLarry writes:

I've been an atheist and I don't insist or assert that there is no god/higher power or that one is impossible.

To me this just means you're irreligious, and agnostic.

I have no belief in one, and I see no evidence for one, but I consider the argument to be moot until there's some reason to revisit it.

This is, pragmatically, exactly how the typical agnostic proceeds, barring the odd period of soul-searching. But people tend to mistake agnosticism for perpetual indecision and avoidance, when in fact it usually reflects a positive arrival at and acceptance of uncertainty.

Also, to say one "sees no evidence" for God assigns a quite selective meaning to the word evidence. Personally I "see no evidence" that the color red could look, in a definitive ontological sense, anywise other than how I perceive it to look, but that's likely because I'm making an a priori assumption about my evidence gathering ability. "Seeing no evidence" for God because one does not experience him as a present reality is a perfectly valid assumption; but logically speaking, so is seeing evidence for him because many others do. If we uncovered documents that described multiple eye witness accounts of some unbelievable thing, we could reject them as delusional but we couldn't properly reject them as "evidence." Much of historiography is of course based on things we could never independently verify but have evidence for. Others' experience of God is evidence, too. So, if you like, is the fact that anything exists at all, if you go the short distance to assuming that someone or thing had to create it in the first place.

All of that, needless to say, comes before one decides how to act upon the "evidence" one has self-selected for.

Theodicy would be better described as theological idiocy. The short answer is straightforward: God isn't in charge, having delegated management to Man. Man, being fallen, inhabits a Fallen world subject to various forms of evil. However, this is Christian theology and therefore unsatisfactory to the non-Christian, so a non-theological answer is required.

A logical and non-theological answer is that imperfection and evil are an aspect intrinsic to the universal design. It is absurd for humans to argue that evil somehow indicates the non-existence of a designer as it is for the electronic players in John Madden NFL Football to argue that season-ending injuries indicate the non-existence of John Madden and/or the game designers at Tiburon.

The Greeks and Romans (as well as practically every other ancient culture I can think of, worldwide) had a litany of deities, which they had no compunction characterizing as cruel, avaricious, spiteful, and occasionally flat out evil. The Zoroastrians (not strictly Western tradition, granted) has a duelist conception of the divine: a good god and an evil god. Once you get down to monotheism, however, you've reduced yourself into a problem: with only one god, where do you assign blame for evil? Blaming it on mankind(or women in particular-- e.g. Pandora, Eve) remained a viable option as, is the old "secret godly plan" claim.

At any rate, I reject your thesis that modern people see greater tragedy and question the existence of god more due to it-- Ancient people saw a tremendous amount of tragedy as well, and have question the role and nature of god(s) as well as their very existence for thousands of years.

To respond to Ross and to an impressive comment thread (despite the odd screeching atheist), the existence of evil argument is both an easily dispatched one and a deeply troubling one. From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED.

But as you point out the comparative facility of New Yorker writers to make the existence-of-evil argument, it is also grating for the equally well-off to make the free-will counter argument. I have led a pretty sheltered existence, and I've never known true evil, in my bones or in my gut. I have not known real hunger, or real pain. The oh so neat argument of free will seems so cold, so utterly irrelevant, when speaking with, say, a Holocaust survivor who has given up on God after experiencing the camps. (This is what Voltaire touches upon when Pangloss addresses the Lisbon Earthquake, which would definitely play a big part in your History of Theodicy.) Of course you can point out that it is in that horror that other Holocaust survivors have found a reason to believe in God, but such considerations seem equally useless when talking not about the general presence of evil in the world, but about the precise and unique evils that one person has sufferred.

The best Christian answer to the existence-of-evil argument seems to me to be, therefore, not the existence of free will (although, again, it is a perfectly valid response), but the much more concrete reality of Incarnation. God allowed evil to exist but He loves Man so much that He defeated it not just through the abstract (yet essential) gift of free will, but also by embracing His creature's condition and experiencing evil in the same ways.

Of course, from an atheist's perspective, this begs the question: to believe that God mitigated the presence of evil by experiencing and defeating it personally is to believe that God exists. But there is another way to put it: if it were possible to believe simultaneously in the existence of evil and in the existence of a benevolent God, then this benevolent God would have to be the kind of God who is willing to suffer evil alongside His creature and with the same intensity. This seems to me to be a very compelling answer.

To Ross's post ... Regarding "Less suffering means more problem of evil means more atheism..."

If you look at the least religious places, you find (http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/23/least-religious-countries/):
"1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
2. Vietnam
3. Denmark
4. Norway
5. Japan
6. Czech Republic
7. Finland
8. France
9. South Korea
10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)"

There are a couple of outliers like Vietnam and Estonia, but some of the most atheist countries are some of the most suffering-free. (Those two exceptions could reasonably attributed to their communist past).

Then, from this site (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_impo.htm). Some of the most religious countries are third-world. (Senegal, Nigeria, Ivory Coast...) India, Brazil, and Indonesia are quite a bit wealthier, but not in the league of the US. The US is the most religious, relatively suffering-free, country.

Bryan Hollingshead replies: "I'll grant my post was a bit on the sappy side, but should sentimentality axiomatically consign someone to the loony bin?"

Sentimentality alone, no.

"I don't much like my post in hindsight, but would you not agree the notion of re-incarnation -- as taught by Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, et al -- places the supposed problem of theodicy in a different light? Moreover, does the notion that all beings (plants, animals, humans, aliens) exist to have experiences and learn from them not alter the framework of the debate?"

But then you add slop like this to the mix, and if you're sitting next to me on the bus I'm not enjoying the ride.

Simply put, you just can't, logically speaking, jump to the conclusion that there is no God, from the fact that there is evil in the world. That does not mean, however, that an explanation is not needed. This might be an argument, althought a rhetorical one, but it is not a proof. Stop insulting each other and try to reason together. As for the complaint that there's no evidence for the existence of God in the first place, I refer you to the extensive literature on the subject, and by serious thinkers, not stupid and sentimental Christians. Anyone who does not accept that is simply being dishonest or downright ignorant of the history of philosophy. This does not mean, of course, that you have to accept Aquinas' Five Ways or St. Anselm's Ontological Argument. But these are great contributions to the world of ideas and serious intellectuals must ponder about their implications. For a great book on the "problem of evil" please read David B. Hart's The Doors of the Sea.

"this argument has gained increasing currency even as our material conditions have dramatically improved"

This may come as a newsflash to you, but Christianity went into a steep decline in Europe after World War 2. You might recall that WW2 was one of the most destructive wars in human history. So I would suggest that your thesis is lacking the historical perspective that puts the rise in theodicy in perspective. WW2 broke Europe's faith in a God of love.

"Sorry, but atheism isn't simply some divine placeholder - by its very definition, it is an active, directed opposition to belief in a higher power.

Using the word 'atheist,' when what you actually mean is 'agnostic,' just muddies the waters of language."

So let them be muddied. Look, I'm sorry if some of you are upset because you learned these words when you were 10 and you don't want your conceptions of them to change, but my use of "atheist" is entirely consistent with the literature on the subject. Isaac Asimov described himself as an agnostic for decades but finally decided that "atheist" was more appropriate for the same reasons I have given. Sometimes the distinction is made between "hard" atheism where one insists definitively that there is no god, and "soft" atheism, where one lacks belief and says that there is no evidence for one. "Soft" atheism goes beyond the wishy-washy maybe/maybe not of agnosticism. As Asimov saw it, he was unable - as a scientist - to assert that he could totally disprove a negative, but he saw the likelihood of there being such a being as so overwhelmingly small that it was no longer worth avoiding the more accurate description of "atheist" to describe his position.

Deal with it.

This is to tag onto what Hector had argued, and to object to the claim that believing in supernatural evil presupposes that a Hitler or the practice of clitorectomy is to assert that "the devil made me do it." The whole idea of real human freedom is that when people do evil they are willingly embracing spiritual promptings that are more often than not internal but also, at times external. The devil did not "make" Hitler and his henchmen do what they did, but some evil is so horrific as to suggest/invite faith in a malevolent superhuman agency (indeed, there seems very little faith involved in saying that some manifestations of human evil, particularly in the last century, seem super-charged with the kind of creative malevolence that is hard to fathom otherwise - esp. when it is the product from the otherwise impoverished souls of a Hitler, Stalin or Mao), just as much of our world (including our own innate capacities) is so good and beautiful as to invite wonder and faith in that much of the world's architecture suggests an underlying omnipotence and benevolence.

For me, the more interesting part of Woods' essay was at the end where he suggested the problem of heaven as being what would humanity be like without tears or pain, and what possibly could be God's purposes for creating a world with so much suffering? The audacity of Christian hope is that there are purposes at work for all people even in situations that have every human appearance of being irredeemably tragic, and that once humanity is freed of its pain and graced with real freedom (which is the capacity to bind ourselves to love and life eternally) then we will see the fullness of our destiny. It could be pie in the sky, but it hinges upon the idea that humanity's future is greater than we can imagine, and the evils that appear to thwart the first stages of this destiny in the here and now are to be opposed as intrinsically wrong even if they are "natural" and especially when they appear to be supernatural.

Freddiemac,

Religious belief had greatly declined in Europe well in advance of the Second World War. Surveys around 1900 showed that only 25% of French citizens attended church regularly.

Thomas R.,

Yes, whatever the issues the problem of evil might pose for orthodox Christianity, there is no grounds for rejecting religion _in general_ based on the problem of evil. The Zoroastrians solved the issue fairly neatly by positing a good God and an evil power that opposed God. I think that accpeting the existence of the devil is critical to any attempt to solve the problem of evil. I don't know why too many atheists are so loath to accept the existence of the devil. It seems to me that the evidence of the existence of the devil is even more evident in the world than the existence of God. i don't necessarily mean the orthodox Christian conception of the devil, but I do mean some spiritual being of great power and evil nature, opposed to God.

Citizen Grim,

No, even the first list of virtues you cite could not really exist in an evil-free world. Love could not really reach its true fulfillment if evil did not exist. We live out our love for another person by enduring suffering for their sake, in a world without suffering there could not be true love. The corrollary of John 15:13 is that a world without death would be a world without sacrifice, and therefore a world without love.

As to the definition of "atheist," I agree with ML&J. The "celestial teapot" example helps explain why:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

An atheist is a person who has concluded that he doesn't believe that there is a God, like the non-teapot believer. You are free to disagree, but it is unfair to cast that conclusion as illegitimate.

Simply put, you just can't, logically speaking, jump to the conclusion that there is no God, from the fact that there is evil in the world.

Fair-minded people can draw a conclusion either way.

As to David's point at 10:34 AM, I saw a terrific quote from Desmond Tutu along those lines. He said that during apartheid, he stressed that God was there in the fiery furnace with them. He added, with a laugh, that he sometimes wished that God had made that fact more apparent. That belief helped create audacious hope, action, and unthinkable change for the better. (Of course, Pres. Bush thinks that the Iraq occupation is just a comma, so even in modern times, belief can give rise to bloody millenarianism).

Freddimaniac,

Actually, it is not correct to claim that Christianity went into steep decline right after WWII. There was a great revival of religiosity in all of Europe during and after the war - it was only in the mid to late 50s that parts of Western Europe started to revert to the prewar patterns of decline - and even then, this was not entirely consistent. In much of Eastern Europe, especially Poland, religious practice increased significantly (which is all the more striking given that in Eastern Europe the war was waged with a satanic ferocity). It might also be worth it to reflect on the party affiliation of the current German Chancellor - for a faith in steep decline in a very secular country isn't it extraordinary that the CDU has dominated German politics for over half a century?

A few comments on Tel's (very relevant) post on least religious places:
1) I don't think you can turn religion on or off like a light switch. Even more importantly, you can't just turn on or off the long term historical effects of religion on a country. So Sweden may not be very religious now, but it certainly has been for most of its existance.
2) On the other hand, Vietnam and Estonia *are* countries where religion and its historical legacy was turned off like a light switch, quite forcefully in both cases.
3) I'm not sure how to define satisfaction or suffering or happiness. Certainly you can define some indicators, but the choices must have utility above ease of measurement. Someone in a coma doesn't suffer much, after all. An argument has been made that a key measurement of cultural satisfaction is eagerness to not die a demographic death. I don't want to get all Mark Steyn or Spengler on everyone, but I don't think you can just discount it.

PS: I deliberately avoided any significant response to MoeLarryAndJesus's rude response to my first post. But I suppose I should point out that some well known anti-religionists talk about religions in an anthropological sense when arguing against them. Richard Dawkins takes it to an extreme, combining anthropology and evolution in a weird unscientific mishmash of 'memes' and 'selfish genes'.

Andrew Berman writes: "I deliberately avoided any significant response to MoeLarryAndJesus's rude response to my first post. But I suppose I should point out that some well known anti-religionists talk about religions in an anthropological sense when arguing against them. Richard Dawkins takes it to an extreme, combining anthropology and evolution in a weird unscientific mishmash of 'memes' and 'selfish genes'."

Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene" is about evolutionary biology and is hardly unscientific. It is also not about religion. You're deeply confused and you have still not provided a significant response to my comment, but then I see no reason to think you're up to the task.

As for the complaint that there's no evidence for the existence of God in the first place, I refer you to the extensive literature on the subject, and by serious thinkers, not stupid and sentimental Christians. Anyone who does not accept that is simply being dishonest or downright ignorant of the history of philosophy.

oooh, serious thinkers! Now I'm impressed.

or, alternatively,

Arguments from apparent authority cut no ice with me. Provide a summary and let's argue the issues on our own terms. If you can't provide a capsule summary, you've just demonstrated that you're just relying on faith that those "serious thinkers" actually wrote anything worth reading.

Ross,

I once wrote an essay which largely dealt with the subject of theodicy as a common argument against the existence of God. (It was the only 100% I ever earned on a paper! a fact which I won't ever get over apparently) In it I also wondered about your very question in the face of the often astonishing faith of the people in this world who suffer the most. I tried to put myself in the place of someone who would seem to have nothing or to have lost everything from our standpoint. And that is just it. From our standpoint some people would have seem to have no reason to live or believe or to think the world good. And yet there is ample evidence that such people have the opposite attitude if we would just listen to them as opposed to imposing our own views upon them.

There is always in these people some reason that they continue to see the world and life as more positive than negative. Whether that is someone who has lost their family, or has suffered some disease or injury, or been the victim of a terrible crime. There are of course exceptions. There always are. But I would say that most people continue to value something about their lives in this world to the extent that their suffering takes a back seat compared to it.

I guess I got onto this thought for several reasons. One, I learned the hard way to really listen to people of faith instead stereotyping them or imposing my own ideas onto them. Two, I read a quote by Chesterton where he posited that the "problem of pleasure" was just as big a problem for atheists as the problem of pain or evil is to the theist. Third, was an episode of a T.V. show of which I can no longer remember the title. But I have never been able to forget the one episode that I watched. In it, a man is senselessly pushed into the path of an oncoming train but he is not killed instantly. Instead he is trapped between the train and the platform. He is is injured in such a way that to remove him will kill him. Ultimately it gets to the point where he is about to be released and the last thing he can think of to say is something about a nature program that he had seen that morning. He had been struck with the wonder and beauty of what he had seen and wanted to share it with someone as his last act. It was more important to him to do this than it was to go out fuming about the unfairness of his death.

Another example that comes to mind is that of Victor Frankl, who actually witnessed the horrors of the Holocaust up close and personal. He lived it and yet eventually developed a positive, life affirming philosophy. I wonder how many people who have rejected God because of the Holocaust has actually spoken to any survivors and how many?

This not to say that suffering is somehow justified. I think that is the major mistake of many of the arguments attempting to explain evil. I personally don't think evil can be justified or explained by any thinking person. But I don't think that it can be left as "its just a mystery" either. Nor should it be. In the end, I don't think its a question that can be resolved by reason, by intellect alone. But I think it can be answered to some degree of satisfaction by another route which brings in more than just the intellect (as opposed to merely by-passing it) It requires above all, an adjustment of perspective or a correction if you will, which can only come through human contact and communication, relationships and living. It ultimately means the process of assigning the correct values to both the amount of goodness in the world and the amount of bad or evil in the world. I think that when you really stop to add it all up, the evidence is strong that goodness is both more potent and more prevalent than evil. The correct ratio which most accurately reflects reality is that Creation is far more good than bad. One shouldn't to turn a blind eye to evil but neither should the opposite mistake be made of assigning to evil so much significance that the goodness of the world seems insignificant by comparison. We don't have to fall into either of these extremes.

Finally, the thing that strikes me the most about people who lose their faith over the problem of evil is that they tend to be those who have focused too much and too long (too much time on our hands?) on instances of suffering. There is a balance to be lost when one stares into the face of evil too long. Eventually, evil takes on proportions in the mind that do not actually exist in reality. Then the type of pessimism which comes as a natural result of that loss of perspective is transfered onto the victims of suffering regardless what they happen to actually think and feel.

I wonder if talking to these people that we feel so sorry for wouldn't cure some of the fixation on evil that afflicts so many in our society.

Simply put, you just can't, logically speaking, jump to the conclusion that there is no God, from the fact that there is evil in the world.

Alex, you are being careless. Honest atheists do not jump to the conclusion that there is no God. They arrive at the conclusion that God is highly improbable. Moreover, it isn't the fact of suffering and evil that shake the idea of a loving God; it is the magnitude of suffering and evil.

I can only repeat Wood's argument, unanswered by any commenter, that Free Will could have existed without Hitlers, Stalins, Liston earthquakes and Indonesian tsunamis being within the realm of potentiality. God could have easily created the world in such a way that our ability to suffer existed along a narrower spectrum of possibility.

I agree with Wood that we have much more freedom than we need, and this excess of freedom vandalizes the face of God.

I think that Ross still misses the point. Even if it could be shown that we see evil in a relative way, that evil seems to be more ugly in the face of a modern life that makes us more confortable and secure, the problem of evil is not only measure in terms of quantity of evil. The problem of evil also has to do with the existence of gratitous evil. No matter how advanced is a society, there is no explanation for things like a tsunamy or an earthquake tearing appart entire villages and killing and ruinning the life of millions of persons. Natural evil is random, blind....the contrary of what one will expect from a God that not only is omnibenevolent, omnicient and omnipotent, but also of one who will want to have created a world ordered in a rationall way (including a moral order).

Francisco,

"We have much more freedom than we need." In all honesty, wow - it reminds me of Chesterton's observation on what in his day was called "free thought" -

"We say, not lightly but very literally, that the truth has made us free. They say that it makes us so free that it cannot be the truth. To them it is like believing in fairyland to believe in such freedom as we enjoy. It is like believing in men with wings to entertain the fancy of men with wills. It is like accepting a fable about a squirrel in conversation with a mountain to believe in a man who is free to ask or a God who is free to answer. This is a manly and a rational negation, for which I for one shall always show respect. But I decline to show any respect for those who first of all clip the bird and cage the squirrel, rivet the chains and refuse the freedom, close all the doors of the cosmic prison on us with a clang of eternal iron, tell us that our emancipation is a dream and our dungeon a necessity; and then calmly turn round and tell us they have a freer thought and a more liberal theology (or philosophy? D.).

I guess the best way to answer the charge of humanity's "gratuitous freedom" from a Christian perspective is that we assume that our destiny is actually to participate in God's infinite life, starting now. For that we need at least as much freedom as we have now, in fact, the point of Christianity is to provide us the resources to have a superhuman level of freedom since that is our future. The magnitude of evil and suffering is undeniably great, but to say it can "vandalize the face of God" is already assuming that this-worldly realities have real metaphysical significance (that you can disprove a metaphysical proposition by historical/physical reality), or metaphysical/spiritual/supernatural propositions can be assessed only with this worldly measures. But if this is so, how do we quantify the generosity of existence