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Matters of Life and Death

03 Jun 2008 12:22 pm

I agree with E.J. Dionne that whatever one thinks of the question of denying communion to pro-choice Catholic politicians, denying communion to Catholic citizens who express support for pro-choice Catholics politicians is a very, very bad idea. There is a crucial distinction between voting for a deeply-immoral measure as a legislator, and voting for a legislator who happens to support deeply-immoral measures; the former is never justifiable, but the latter course of action may well be, depending on the set of issues at stake in the election. Here I would cite these remarks from Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput, which Andrew called "metaphorically weird," but which (naturally enough) I found nicely phrased and essentially correct:

So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can’t, and I won’t. But I do know some serious Catholics— people whom I admire—who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken, but at least they sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And most important: They don’t keep quiet about it; they don’t give up; they keep lobbying their party and their representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn. Catholics can vote for pro-choice candidates if they vote for them despite—not because of—their pro-choice views.

But [Catholics who support pro-choice candidates] also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it. What is a “proportionate” reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life—which we most certainly will. If we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed.

What this implies, I think, is that a pro-lifer can in good conscience support a pro-choice candidate only for reasons that go directly to issues of life and death on a scale proportionate to the scale of the abortion industry as licensed by Roe v. Wade. I think that this calculus points toward a distinction between foreign and domestic policy debates, with the former, as a general rule, offering much more plausible grounds for casting a vote for a pro-choice politician than the latter. In debates over foreign affairs, voters are asked to pass judgment on policies that often lead directly to the death of innocents on a large scale; the same simply cannot be said of most domestic controversies, at least in the contemporary United States, which is why the abortion issue weighs so heavily (and rightfully so) on the consciences of Catholic voters. Obviously many liberals would claim otherwise - i.e. a vote against S-CHIP is a vote to let thousands of children die! - but I think those arguments become very strained very quickly, especially when they're expanded to include putatively "life and death" issues like education, say, or the health of the labor movement.

In practice, this means I'm much more sympathetic to a pro-life Catholic who's supporting Barack Obama in order to vote against the life-and-death consequences of American interventionism, in Iraq and elsewhere - even though I'm skeptical about the merits of that particular calculus - than I am to a pro-life Catholic who's voting for Obama because he thinks the distribution of the American tax burden conflicts with Catholic social thought. Or again, even as I disagreed with their assessment, I would have been much more sympathetic to a pro-life Mondale voter who took the view that Ronald Reagan's foreign policy was raising the risk of thermonuclear war above and beyond any reasonable or acceptable level than to a pro-life Mondalenik who thought Reagan wasn't doing enough to maintain the "preferential option for the poor" that Catholic social teaching calls for.

Note, too, that this is a separate question from the issue of whether casting a pro-life vote actually has any chance to produce pro-life policies, or whether the dream of overturning Roe is essentially hopeless, and the alliance between pro-lifers and the GOP essentially fruitless. I can certainly imagine a circumstance in which the impossibility of the pro-life cause makes it plausible to vote for a pro-choice candidate with a clear conscience even when grave matters aren't at stake, but as I've argued before, I think we're some distance from that state of affairs.

Comments (131)

I think these metaphysical micromanagements are both silly and disingenous.

Wouldn't it have been just as amoral to vote for a politician that supported the war in Iraq? Surely the thousands of deaths as a result of this are equally a blood stain. Or are Iraqi lives not as valuable as American embryos?

Is voting for a politician who says they are pro-life really a pro-life vote? Other than the possibility that there will be a Supreme Court vacancy for the President to appoint and the Senate to confirm, what can any other politician possibly do?

The problem with the Catholic Church goes far beyond this abortion issue. Because if you read the encyclicals, the Church is against contraception. I find it hilarious that the Church was ashamed to openly teach this doctrine until a few years ago. Now for the Church to try and force a wedge with their own disallusioned congregation over whom they vote for and why is rather pathetic, in light of the Church's own inability to protect children from the Church itself.

The Church has a lot of problems right now. While it may be doctrinally correct that abortion is wrong, its political stance on this is fundamentally absurd. 1. outlawing abortion won't end abortion. 2. there are other policies enacted by politicians that are equally sinful, yet the Church does not stress these with such weight. 3. if the Church wanted to end abortion, they would simply work to education and promote birth control. It is as simple as that. Why pulling out early is Ok but preventing ovulation is not is absurd.

Also, your argument about health care not fitting into the Catholic morality equation is fradulent.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0510-06.htm

The high rate of infant mortality in the US is something to be concerned over, if one is concerned about the "dignity and sanctity of human life". But that doesn't really seem to be a concern of the American Catholic appartus does it? Who cares about extending health care to poor blacks so that infant mortality in black communities would decline? Apparently not the Catholic Church. And no surprise, since black Americans by and large aren't Catholic.

There is simply no end to the mischief that can be generated when superstition is conflated with authority. I've got about as much faith in the Catholic church as moral arbiter as I have that Jesus's mom was a virgin, that Jesus came back from the dead and then floated to heaven.

Why pulling out early is Ok but preventing ovulation is not is absurd.

Look, you're talking about religious beliefs here. The punishment we're talking about is the denial of an extremely bland cracker and some grape juice.

Absurdity is just all there is to talk about on this front.

Your argument only makes sense if you're willing to grant the premise that Catholic belief should be wedded to one of the two political parties currently existing in the US.

A social movement dedicated to reducing poverty, preventing war, and preventing abortion would be quite a bit more humble and effective than the spiteful culture war tactics that Kmiec's nameless jihadi priest prefers.

freddiemac, please don't treat the Church as a monolith. Catholic Charities, for example, does a lot of tough, unglamorous, underappreciated work in this country and elsewhere.

Who cares about extending health care to poor blacks so that infant mortality in black communities would decline? Apparently not the Catholic Church.

This is "apparent?" What country are you living in? I would have thought it obvious to even the most casual observer that the Roman Catholic Church operates one of the largest hospital networks in the country -- at least if we're talking about hospitals available to poor people. Also, I think there's a fairly prominent traditional in Catholic social thought of advocating for more spending on programs benefiting the economically vulnerable.

All well and good, but I'm waiting for tomorrow's lecture on enumerating angelic pin-dancers.

"It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life—which we most certainly will."

This is exceptionally funny. I guess "heaven" will be filled with winged zygotes and tiny fetuses zipping around playing Quidditch.

The best part is the "most certainly will." I do my best to resist thinking that all religious people are insane or stupid, but crap like this makes it very difficult.

Jasper,

I'm living in the USA. In what country do you reside? I reside in a country where hospitals, Catholic or not, don't assist in things for poor pregnant mothers like ultrasounds. I live in a country where follow ups for poor mothers with poor babies aren't available, Catholic hospital or no. I live in reality, and I can see that the infant mortality rate among certain people in this country is higher than certain others, and I can put two and two together and get four. I also live in a country where the Catholic lobby for social programs for the poor is inconsequential in comparison to the pro-life lobby.

I should add that I also live in a country where the Catholic Church spends millions of dollars defending pedophiles from justice.

I'm with Moe on this one. I tried mightily to take Chaput seriously, but he ultimately failed the laugh-out-loud test.

If your political decisions are driven by an absolute certainty that dead people have guilt-inducing conversations with aborted fetuses in a supernatural realm that no living person has ever seen, you might as well base them on a belief that Death Eaters are trying to seize control of the Ministry. At least the latter philosophy would probably give you a healthy skepticism of Presidential signing statements.

I am no expert on Catholic theology, but I thought embryos -- along with babies who die in or shortly after childbirth -- are consigned to hell (or in a later gloss, to limbo) solely because they had not had the opportunity to be baptized. That suggests that Archbishop Charles Chapute (and I guess Ross) means that those who vote for pro-choice candidates will "most certainly" see them in hell.

I must say I do not understand anyone who can accept with equanimity a God who consigns innocent souls to the everlasting fire. As a Universalist, my theology is rather different.

As a prolife liberal Catholic I also consider the effect of incentives on the abortion rate. The Republicans profess an intent to ban abortion but their incentives- in terms of cutting federal subsidies to low income child care, cutting food stamps and Title 8- will have the effect, in practice, of making it harder for a woman in tight circumstances to feel she can survive if she has the child. When our allegedly pro-life Republican administration makes contraception more expensive and harder to get for the poor- and regards abstinence as the only acceptable solution for ADULTS- I feel like tearing my hair out.

If the choice is between forbidding abortion while providing incentives that PROMOTE abortion, vs. allowing abortion while providing incentives that discourage abortion, I'll take the second path.

What's the big deal? All you have to do, if you are at all concerned with this, is go to convession right after you vote. Absolution, what a wonderful thing!

Even assuming that every aborted fetus has full personhood, if you expand the concept of "foreign affairs" to include not just war, but development and ecological issues on which Catholics might be similar to liberals, I think proportionality is achieved fairly quickly. You've got all the fetus-angels on one side, and all the victims of starvation and disease on the other.

I still think there's a good chance you'll get some restrictions on late term abortions, financial support for pregnancy and early childhood development, and abstinance/contraception education in an Obama victory. Just like McCain will have an easier time passing immigration legislation, Obama would have an easier time pushing through a grand compromise on abortion. (He hasn't talked compromise in a while, but it's primary season. He sounded different in Audacity of Hope.) Even if you don't think this could significantly reduce the number of abortions (and you wouldn't really have any way of knowing until we tried) if such measures actually failed to reduce abortion numbers they would leave you in a better position to call for more legislation.

Simply put, prohibition should be the *last* step, not the first step. The pro-life movement has that backwards. Surely the autonomy a women deserves over her own body exceeds the autonomy a person deserves over their money. If you're not willing to spend *money* to alleviate the number of abortions, you shouldn't be willing to take away rights. Deep down everyone knows that, which is why Roe v. Wade hangs around so stubbornly. Put some money where your mouth is and maybe you'll convince somebody.

I think if it is really the proportionality in the number of lives you're fighting for rather than the legal principle of Roe's illegitimacy, the case for Obama is at least as good as that for McCain. Keep in mind that the danger with McCain is not a continuation of Iraq but the initiation of future wars--maybe even starting a Second Cold War with China, which would bring back a nuclear Doomsday Clock.

One VERY important aspect of the issue not raised in Ross's post above is the issue of the "scandal" (note: a theologically specific term) presented to the faithful of a specific parish when communion is received by a openly schismatic politician.

So, you have St Anywhere USA parish... Among its congregation are multiple groups doing pro-life work from adoption services to pre-natal care among the underprivileged to political lobbing and voter drives. You also have multiple parishioners with unplanned pregnancies, children with Down syndrome, and underage pregnant girls specifically NOT aborting but bearing the child out of faithful Christian duty and witness.

Now - suddenly you have rank politician Bob the abort’er who meanders up the isle every Sunday with the rest of the (bona fide) faithful and receives communion.

Unlike the rest of the faithful who are (naturally) sinners, Bob the abort’er is in open & public defiance of clear Church teaching. Unlike any other congregant no speculation or hearsay or guesswork is required to KNOW that Bob stands against the will of Christ.

This is the element of "scandal" Bobs reception of communion has on the life of a parish. There are any number of reasons why Any individual may be denied communion: but the case of a public servant and elected politician (as distinguishable from even a judge) is that his policy positions are a matter of public record & as a Catholic he is charged with working for social justice regardless of the political cost.

This aspect of “scandal” goes to the heart of the specific denial of communion for pro-“choice” Catholic politicians. Understanding this element of the issue is necessary for a full understanding of subject.

Why do we never hear about pro death penalty politicians being denied communion? This is surely an "un-Catholic" position for a politician to take.

One VERY important aspect of the issue not raised in Ross's post above is the issue of the "scandal" (note: a theologically specific term) presented to the faithful of a specific parish when communion is received by a openly schismatic politician.

So, you have St Anywhere USA parish... Among its congregation are multiple groups doing pro-life work from adoption services to pre-natal care among the underprivileged to political lobbing and voter drives. You also have multiple parishioners with unplanned pregnancies, children with Down syndrome, and underage pregnant girls specifically NOT aborting but bearing the child out of faithful Christian duty and witness.

Now - suddenly you have rank politician Bob the abort’er who meanders up the isle every Sunday with the rest of the (bona fide) faithful and receives communion.

Unlike the rest of the faithful who are (naturally) sinners, Bob the abort’er is in open & public defiance of clear Church teaching. Unlike any other congregant no speculation or hearsay or guesswork is required to KNOW that Bob stands against the will of Christ.

This is the element of "scandal" Bobs reception of communion has on the life of a parish. There are any number of reasons why Any individual may be denied communion: but the case of a public servant and elected politician (as distinguishable from even a judge) is that his policy positions are a matter of public record & as a Catholic he is charged with working for social justice regardless of the political cost.

This aspect of “scandal” goes to the heart of the specific denial of communion for pro-“choice” Catholic politicians. Understanding this element of the issue is necessary for a full understanding of the subject.

Ross,

I can see the argument for your prioritizing abortion above other Catholic social teachings, but why, do you think, is there so little push-back against politicians (pro-life or pro-choice) who blatantly disregard those teachings? If the preferential option for the poor is not as important as abortion, surely it's important, right? So why don't we hear more about that from George Weigel, RJN, Michael Novak and the like?

What a depressing comments section.

freddiemac: the Church opposes "pulling out" and has publicly opposed that action and all artificial methods of birth control for well over a thousand years. The Church's opposition may be news to you, but most people (Catholic and not) have been well aware of it for quite some time.

David A: the Church does not purport to know what, precisely, happens to unborn or unbaptized children after their death; its teachings on this issue have always been speculative. But none of those speculations ever suggested that the children would be consigned "to the everlasting fire."

Tiparillo: the Church teaches that the sacrament of penance is of no effect unless the penitent has: a) genuine contrition; and b) a firm purpose of amendment.

There are good reasons to doubt whether Catholicism's teachings about eternity are true, and better reasons to doubt whether its teachings about moral law are true. But nobody here seems able to come up with any; throwing mud being easier and apparently more fun.

Apologies for double post.

It is a mistake to weigh issues as opposed to consequences. This can be easily seen by considering a candidate for county tax assessor. Admittedly, the fairness of property tax assessments is a far less weighty issue than the legality of abortion. However, the county tax assessor has far more impact on the first than the second. Thus, in considering whether there exist proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-abortion county tax assessor, the weight assigned to the abortion issue must be discounted by the likelihood that the outcome of this particular election will have any impact on that issue. I imagine that most people would agree that it could be discounted to zero and that the candidate's position on abortion is irrelevant in determining whether there are proportionate reasons to vote for that candidate.

The article alludes to this consideration in the final paragraph, but it deserves far more than a passing reference. There is an entirely reasonable argument to be made that the outcome of electoral contests will have no significant impact on the legality of abortion in the U.S. If that is correct, then the weight assigned to this issue can be discounted to near zero and even a far less weighty issue (e.g. S-CHIP) could supply a proportionate reason to vote for the pro-abortion candidate.

DumbQuestion asks why bishops don't call out pro-death-penalty Catholic politicians. Ben asks why they don't call out Catholic politicians who fail to prioritize Catholic social teaching.

The answer to both questions is that under Catholic doctrine, abortion is always and everywhere cold-blooded murder of an innocent person. It's therefore always wrong; the bishop can say with confidence that anyone who supports it is supporting a moral evil.

War and social policy are, in contrast, not as clear. Catholic teaching allows "just" wars, and whether a particular war is "just" or not is a judgment call. Catholic teaching says that we should help the poor; but reasonable minds can differ as to whether the global poor are helped more by foreign aid or by free markets. So bishops will allow Catholic politicians to take different public positions on war A or law B.

Ben

"I can see the argument for your prioritizing abortion above other Catholic social teachings, but why, do you think, is there so little push-back against politicians (pro-life or pro-choice) who blatantly disregard those teachings? If the preferential option for the poor is not as important as abortion, surely it's important, right? So why don't we hear more about that from George Weigel, RJN, Michael Novak and the like?"

To answer you question (and many other allusion to this issue of priority) no politician or Catholic politician is arguing (as your example indicates) that there not be a preferential treatment for the poor.

To use another example: Just War. The analogy with abortion would not be that different individuals argue what a apt application of Just War is, but rather... If different individual argued whether or not wars needed to be just to begin with.

Consumatopia and Anne E's posts make the larger point. People care about whichever issues they care about. They make the case-- and a case can be made either way-- that the issues of importance to them are the most important ones.

A visible Catholic movement outside of politics would be much more effective than shoehorning allegiance to Catholicism into parties, where it doesn't fit. Really, all that does is indicate that party allegiance is more important than religious adherence or professed morality.

Ross: You need an editor. This piece is too long, and so is the one below it. Pithy, man, pithy.

freddiemac (says)

"The high rate of infant mortality in the US is something to be concerned over, if one is concerned about the "dignity and sanctity of human life". But that doesn't really seem to be a concern of the American Catholic apparatus does it? Who cares about extending health care to poor blacks so that infant mortality in black communities would decline? Apparently not the Catholic Church. And no surprise, since black Americans by and large aren't Catholic."

Oh - just brilliant, what an informed opinion.

#1. We have Medicare & Medicade Multibillion dollar programs. Poor people have healthcare - it’s the lower & middle classes whose healthcare is in jeopardy at any given time through their employer.

#2. (and most importantly) The American Catholic Bishops Conference was (and is) prepared to fully back a national health care regime. They already have. A little reported FACT is that during Hillary care the American Catholic Bishops Conference was onboard to back the proposal until (guess what?) negotiations for their support broke down because the considerable feminist lobby of the Democrats demanded that federally funded abortion on demand be a non-negotiable.

#3. the proper analogy with abortion vs. socialized healthcare would be if the argument was “lets save health care dollars & tax dollars by killing the unwanted children because they are a burden to their parents & society” Which is what abortion essentially is.

Joe Magarac,

Wrong. If you were familiar with Catholic history, you'd know that contraception was widely taught to the faithful for centuries. The trenchant position on contraception is 19th century. The Church endorses family planning only in the sense of the rythm system, which is basically pulling out early. You are confusing the Catholic Church with the LDS, which does not endorse any family planning of any kind, and never has.

You are also being disingenous on DumbQuestion's question. The Catholic Church has unequivocally stated that capital punishment is wrong. So why doesn't it stand up against state sponsored murder? You state just wars, but that was not part of the question. You are trying to mislead.

Fitz you say,

"We have Medicare & Medicade Multibillion dollar programs. Poor people have healthcare - it’s the lower & middle classes whose healthcare is in jeopardy at any given time through their employer"

Does medicare and medicade provide for prenatal care like free sonograms to poor mothers? Does it pay for extended hospital stays for new mothers and babies? Once again facts get in the way of your cute little diversion. The fact is that poor people, and poor blacks specifically, don't have access to the great American health care system. The fact is that there is a higher infant mortality rate in those communities and it is preventable. But rather than spend money and political capital on these poor black babies, the Catholic Church is spending millions defending pedophiles and worrying about babies not born. Your argument is a fraud.

There are good reasons to doubt whether Catholicism's teachings about eternity are true, and better reasons to doubt whether its teachings about moral law are true. But nobody here seems able to come up with any...

Mr.Magarac seems not to understand the meaning of the word absurd. Some assistance for him from wiktionary:

Contrary to reason or propriety; obviously and flatly opposed to manifest truth; inconsistent with the plain dictates of common sense; logically contradictory; nonsensical; ridiculous...

Apparently neither Ross nor the Church hierarchy has any problem with pro-torture politicians, the fact that pro-choice merely allows abortions while pro-torture actively creates torture notwithstanding.

Oh, and here is more Catholic history for you:

Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening". It wasn't until about 100 years ago that their position changed to "life begins at conception".

1. Instead of discussing round and round the subject, it would be useful to examine the facts about abortion. Such facts are available at

http://www.abortionfacts.com/abortion/numbers.asp

2. If some find numbers impressive, consider that in New York City alone, there are ANNUALLY close to 95,000 "Voluntary Terminations of Pregnancy". In the U.S. approximately 1.8 million, ANNUALLY.

Total casualties in Iraq have been approximately 92,000 since the beginning.

I note that U.S. forces are voluntary. As every child will say at some point "I didn't ask to be born". Does not the responsibility go back to the mother? [Who is generally not a helpless shrinking violet but a willing participant in the activiry which "got" her pregnant].

In these as in other social matters, it might be well to read Thomas Sowell's THE VISION OF THE ANOINTED. This black author is not kind to college survey courses, conducted by and for the benefit of THE ANOINTED.

freddie, you need to review your church teaching and history... the Church has never permitted contraception; if you have something which disproves that, provide it. Nor is the "rhythm method" (which hasn't been taught for 40 years) coitus interruptus, but was based on using a calendar to make an educated guess as to when a woman was fertile or infertile. Nor can you point to a Church teaching which legitimated "pre-quickening" abortion... while scholars debated when ensoulment occurred, they never said that abortion was permissible. In fact, an early church text (the Didache, from the 1st century) explicitly forbade abortion.

The Catholic Church does not view capital punishment as intrinsically evil, i.e. never allowable in any circumstance. The Church's position is that in a modern country there is little reason for it, considering that modern security systems in those countries make escape extremely unlikely. John Paul II's encyclical The Gospel of Life explains this, as does the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Having said that, the Church *does* call for the repudiation of capital punishment in places like the US; the US bishops have been very clear on this.

DMonteith: You apparently see Catholicism (theism in general?) as absurd, but the term (absurd) becomes meaningless in the face of some of those who have embraced Catholicism, i.e. public intellectuals of every background. If you really want to enter into a dialogue (perhaps you don't), then you'll have to offer *some* rationale for your statements. If not, why bother?

Freddiemac

You seem more interested in spreading faulty outright & easily researched ‘facts”

“If you were familiar with Catholic history, you'd know that contraception was widely taught to the faithful for centuries”

“The Church endorses family planning only in the sense of the rythm system, which is basically pulling out early”

The Catholic Church has unequivocally stated that capital punishment is wrong.

(all three flat out false and misleadingly simplistic)

Rather than entering into a reasoned discourse about the behavior and teachings of the Catholic Church.

You then state.

“Does medicare and medicade provide for prenatal care like free sonograms to poor mothers? Does it pay for extended hospital stays for new mothers and babies?


“But rather than spend money and political capital on these poor black babies”


But the Church spends millions on prenatal care for black women. I am personally involved in pregnancy centers for the underprivileged that provider the whole host of these services. Catholic hospitals are famous for running at a loss and maintaining healthcare standards for patients unable to pay while other hospitals cut costs.

All this on top of the Catholic Bishop Conferences pronounced support of health care programs for the poor & universality (as stated above) Not to mention the established Catholic support for European initiatives of the same ilk.

As well as, and on top of our considerable support for unborn children.

Your argument is a fraud.

(and your reference to pedophilia a gratuitous shot in this context, denoting a crass and uncharitable mindset)

"Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening". It wasn't until about 100 years ago that their position changed to "life begins at conception".

Does the ignorance never end? What a common and easily disprovable ruse! Hint "Didache"

Freddiemac,

Abortion was not always regarded as murder by the broad Christian tradition, but it was always regarded as a sin. The book of Jeremiah implies that life begins well before 'quickening', and the story of St. John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth implies the same. Abortion is condemned explicitly in the Didache, which is an authentic codification of apostolic testimony and is accepted as scripture by the church of Ethiopia. Several visions of heaven and hell ("Apocalypse of St. Peter", etc.) attributed to the Apostles were popular with the early church and given quasi-canonical status; they also explicitly condemn abortion. While these works are not part of the modern canon, they were never accused of heresy or false moral teaching.

Contraception was, also, regarded by the Catholic church as a sin from the beginning. I think that they were, and are, wrong on that and on some other related questions of sexual morality. Abortion, however, is disticnt from contraception in the same way that war is distinct from diplomacy. The case against abortion is almost airtight based not only on broad Christian tradition but also on scripture and natural reason. One is forced to the conclusion that the Catholic position on abortion is correct- if by nothing else, then by the fact that abortion has brought along a host of other ills in its wake.

"In the course of history, the Fathers of the Church, her Pastors and her Doctors have taught the same doctrine [that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development] - the various opinions on the infusion of the spiritual soul did not introduce any doubt about the illicitness of abortion. It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of penal sanctions. Excellent authors allowed for this first period more lenient case solutions which they rejected for following periods. But it was never denied at that time that procured abortion, even during the first days, was objectively grave fault. This condemnation was in fact unanimous. [6] (emphasis added).

"This teaching is reflected in subsequent theological and confessional manuals. In his Summa Theologica Antoninus (1389-1453) Archbishop of Florence, and like Aquinas a Dominican, considers whether homicide can be justified to avoid another evil. His examples include the case of abortion, and he maintains that if a foetus is animate then it is impermissible to kill it so as to save the mother, and impermissible for the mother, even though she may be going to die, to accelerate her death to save the foetus (ST, II, 7, 8). Another Domincan, Silvester Prieras (1456-1523) in his widely referred to Summa summarium draws the distinction between abortion pre- and post-hominization, and offers the direction that in circumstances where it is uncertain which may have been performed the penitent should be required to confess to and be absolved of the greater sin,.but punished according to the lesser one. This is an example of the ‘lenient case solution’ referred to in the 1974 ‘Declaration’. Other later, and also prominent works, such as the Enchiridion sive manuale confessariorum et penitentium of Martinus Azpilcueta (1492-1586) follow the same course. By stages, however, a change of view begins to emerge about the facts on which the pastoral practice was based. In his De formatrice foetus, Thomas Fieinus (1567-1631), a professor of medicine at Louvain, argues that the soul is present from conception. What earlier writers, following Aristotle thought of as a succession of formative principles (souls), each replacing its predecessor, can be viewed as successively emergent functions attributable to a single original principle (brought to life by the effect of intercourse). Fieinus then claims, rather in the style of later critics of delayed hominization, that if there were no rational soul present until the exercise of higher mental functions then one would have to say that rational animation only occurs two to three years after birth. Another influential figure, Paulo Zacchia (1584-1659) argues in Questiones medico-legalis that the soul which organizes the development of the conceptus is internal to it (i.e. not a remote cause such as the father, mediated by an instrumental power in the semen)."

http://www2.franciscan.edu/plee/aquinas_on_human_ensoulment.htm

Let's see...

http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/moderate_RC_position_on_contraception_abortion.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

http://members.aol.com/revising/history.html

Any refutation links? Anyone?

I also seem to recall Pope John Paul II being against the war in Iraq. Wasn't it sinful then for Catholics to vote to re-elect him?

"One is forced to the conclusion that the Catholic position on abortion is correct- if by nothing else, then by the fact that abortion has brought along a host of other ills in its wake."

Other ills being the decline in violent crime since Roe vs. Wade?

Not to mention, I've heard argument that the word which is usually translated 'witch' in Leviticus, the Apocalypse of St. John, etc. is perhaps better translated as 'person who procures abortions', since it was commonly understood in Jewish and Christian antiquity that procuring abortions was the main presumed function of witches.

Hector,

From whom did you hear this? Any sources to suggest that witches meant abortioners?

"refutation links"

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/

Hat Tip:

When trying to understand what the Church has taught it is wise to reference –well - what the Church actually teaches

It is unwise to consult those who have a pronounced and clearly stated desire to misrepresent those teachings.

freddiemac,

On how many things can a person be wrong at once?

If you were familiar with Catholic history, you'd know that contraception was widely taught to the faithful for centuries.

Incorrect. The only controversy about contraception in the history of the Catholic Church regards what sort of sin it was, not whether it was a sin. This article on Catholic.com provides a brief summary:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

The Church endorses family planning only in the sense of the rythm system, which is basically pulling out early.

Also incorrect. The "rythm system" and its modern descentant NFP (natural family planning) consists of simply not having sex during fertile periods. To quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:158
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

You are also being disingenous on DumbQuestion's question. The Catholic Church has unequivocally stated that capital punishment is wrong.

Incorrect yet again. To quote the Catechism again:
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening". It wasn't until about 100 years ago that their position changed to "life begins at conception".

Also wrong. What was debated in the middle ages was whether abortion before "quickening" (the point when the baby begins to move -- which based on Aristotelian philosophy the medieval theologians assumed must be the point when the soul entered the body) was an act of murder or an act of contraception. Either was, it was considered a sin.

A visible Catholic movement outside of politics would be much more effective than shoehorning allegiance to Catholicism into parties, where it doesn't fit. Really, all that does is indicate that party allegiance is more important than religious adherence or professed morality.

There's something a bit... disingenuous here, no? The Catholic hierarchy has shilled for Democrats, over the years, as much or (probably) more than for Republicans. The only reason there's any "into parties" aspect here is because one party intentionally transformed itself into the "pro abortion, all the time, if you want a national level career in THIS party" group -- and the other, in some ways by default, became more solidly identified with opposition to the absolute abortion license. The only reason there's any "this party" aspect to this is that one party is quite deeply committed to murdering the unborn, and the other is at least willing to give lip service to the idea that perhaps that isn't a good thing in all circumstances. Don't blame the Church. Blame the Democrats.

A visible Catholic movement outside of politics would be much more effective than shoehorning allegiance to Catholicism into parties, where it doesn't fit. Really, all that does is indicate that party allegiance is more important than religious adherence or professed morality.

There's something a bit... disingenuous here, no? The Catholic hierarchy has shilled for Democrats, over the years, as much or (probably) more than for Republicans. The only reason there's any "into parties" aspect here is because one party intentionally transformed itself into the "pro abortion, all the time, if you want a national level career in THIS party" group -- and the other, in some ways by default, became more solidly identified with opposition to the absolute abortion license. The only reason there's any "this party" aspect to this is that one party is quite deeply committed to murdering the unborn, and the other is at least willing to give lip service to the idea that perhaps that isn't a good thing in all circumstances. Don't blame the Church. Blame the Democrats.

Re: Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening".

The quickening was set by convention at 40 days, at which point few women even know they are pregnant. Moroever the Church was not "OK" with abortion even then, it just regarded as a lesser sin.

Re: the story of St. John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth implies the same.

John the Baptist was already "quickened" since Mary went to visit Elizabeth after hearing that she was pregnant (implying some time had passed since conception) and John leapt in his mother's womb, which means he was "quick" (the quickening was associated with fetal movement).

Re: I've heard argument that the word which is usually translated 'witch' in Leviticus, the Apocalypse of St. John, etc. is perhaps better translated as 'person who procures abortions

I don't know about the Hebrew (I think the word is entirely obscure) but the Greek word "pharmakos" in the Septuagint means "potion brewer" (

Of course, the priest denying communion to Kmiec, wrong though Kmiec may be, is abusing his power and should be smacked down mightily by his bishop. Denying communion to John Kerry? I'm all aboard. To Doug Kmiec, who is making a legitimate, if IMO dumb, argument about proportionality, possible effects on things, etc.? It's not a grave scandal and sin to be naive and foolish, caught in the snares and delusions of "Hope", last I checked. Have mercy on us all if it is.

Also, freddiemac really doesn't know what he's talking about. Maguire is not exactly a great source to go to here -- the man's dishonest (and has long been either fundamentally confused or flatly heretical on the nature of the church's teaching authority) even for an academic with a huge axe to grind.

A (recent) old joke used to go:

Two Catholic women were gossiping over the fence & one said: "Did you here Megan McMurphy's boy has become a Republican"

The other woman answers "Oh no- that’s not true, I saw him at Mass this morning"

Political elegances are unavoidable it would seem (especially in the middle of a culture war) One of there principle drawbacks has already revealed itself.

However: this is in the situation of the Democrats not the “religious right”.

Catholics were a pivotal part of the FDR/Kennedy coalition. When the culture wars hit in the sixties & the democrats went the way of debauchery, abortion and anti-religion a huge swath of both Catholic voters & politicians found themselves stuck with political allegiances and party affiliation. Through the unions, loyalty to local Catholic politicians & solidarity on certain specific issues.

This demonstrates the danger of the Church becoming to identified with one particular party.

What Fitz and his fellow fetusphiles won't admit is that American Catholics are as split on abortion as other Americans are, and it is simply not a major voting issue for most of them. Like other Americans, they're more concerned with economic and security issues when voting. Fitz says Catholics were a major part of the FDR/Kennedy coalition, but can't bring himself to admit that they also voted for Bill Clinton rather convincingly - both times. As a group, Catholics are better educated and not as wacky as the fundies are - so don't let the fanaticism of celibate wingnuts like Fitz fool you.

For anyone who cares: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Understanding+Catholic+voters.-a0136262283

...the term (absurd) becomes meaningless in the face of some of those who have embraced Catholicism...

How so? The fact that some very impressive persons have embraced Catholicism does not make virgin birth, burning talking bushes, etc. any less absurd. It just means that otherwise very impressive people can believe some very silly things.

If you really want to enter into a dialogue (perhaps you don't), then you'll have to offer *some* rationale for your statements.

Well, I don't know about "dialogue". I was simply replying to Mr Magarac's assertion that no one here has provided a good reason to doubt the teachings of catholicism when in fact there have been a number of posts that point out that the absurdity of many of its tenets is a perfectly good reason to discount them.

Feel free to disagree with the premise that such things as virgin birth, rising from the dead, and turning water instantly into wine are absurd propositions. I have this cynical streak, however, that doubts the utility of offering "rationales" in an effort to engage in "dialogue" with those who reject this premise.

Not to mention that my natural skepticism of appeals to authority (to which these sorts of discussions invariably degenerate) are compounded when the authority in question is so patently self-serving and ridiculous.

But thanks for asking!

Won't admit? I just don't really see how it's relevant to the point at hand, Moe. Nominal Catholics, particularly if you don't qualify this by "attend Mass more than two-three times a year" are a cultural and (to some extent) ethnic group. They are an interesting political artifact, and of course human beings with souls and minds and worthy of study -- but they have little to do with who is in a state of public scandal and should not receive communion (Doug Kmiec? that's absurd and dangerous; John Kerry? seems like a reasonable thing to do).

That it's a scandal that more "Catholics" not only don't make the lives of the unborn a point of interest when voting, but that many are actually on the other side -- well, that's true. But it's slightly less of a scandal than it appears, given that some of those are folks who put "Catholic" down but it means very very little in their lives.

"Why do we never hear about pro death penalty politicians being denied communion"

TR: The death penalty is not actually condemned by the Catholic Church in all cases or to the same degree. Many believe it is, including archbishops, but many archbishops believe all kinds of things.

The Papal States had an executioner until the Papal States quit existing. Pope Pius XII defended executions. The idea execution is always wrong is a recent development not really supported by Christian tradition. It's mostly a European reaction to the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust. Still even Evangelium Vitae's statement that execution shouldn't occur "except in cases of absolute necessity" does not necessarily mean a total ban. Pope John Paul II's personal opinion was that such cases never occur, but his personal opinion is not to be confused with the teaching of the Church. That such cases truly never do occur has not clearly been stated by the Church at any point. Even if it was Pope John Paul II's statement was prefaced by statements on "advancements in rehabilitation" methods. A total condemnation of all executions in all times is not something, I feel, the Church can do remotely do plausibly.

In addition to that executions in the US haven't gone beyond 98 per annum since 1976. The statistics I've read indicate that about 130,000 abortions are performed after the 12th week and 1.2 million overall.

Thomas R

On a more practical level, There is no (supposed) Federal Constitutional Right that states must practice the death penalty.

We still maintain the ability as a free people to both limit & eliminate the death penalty. This is the case in the state I live in and recently New Jersey has been added to the list.

So, our robbed masters have generously allowed us the ability to effect political change.
Which is always nice in a “democracy”.

TMoC replies: "That it's a scandal that more "Catholics" not only don't make the lives of the unborn a point of interest when voting, but that many are actually on the other side -- well, that's true. But it's slightly less of a scandal than it appears, given that some of those are folks who put "Catholic" down but it means very very little in their lives."

Or perhaps it's just that it doesn't mean what it means to you.

But my point was mainly to counter the denseness of Fitz, who likes to pretend that Catholics are almost all as demented and obedient to the withered Church leadership as he is. They're not, and they're becoming less so as time goes on, which is a very, very good thing.

BTW, it's simply silly to suggest that Catholics are an ethnic group. I suppose I know what you're trying to get at with the comment, but it's simply not true, and the Catholic population in the US gets more diverse and diffused by the day.

Thomas R.,

Opposition to capital punishment (which is not a position with which I agree) is pretty common across Latin America as well as Europe. Support for the death penalty in Latin America tends to come more from left-wing, anti-clerical parties like the Mexican PRD. I agree that it's silly to compare the Catholic church position on abortion with its position on the death penalty. Capital punishment can be justified fairly readily in the Christian tradition, starting with the repentant thief on the cross; it also has a basis in the Platonism that was a kind of Greek forerunner to Christianity.

Marquis,

I don't know Kerry personally but I suspect from what I have heard of the man that he would strongly discourage his daughter, or friend, or any of his personal associates from having an abortion. (I wouldn't say the same of, for example, Ted Kennedy). I suspect that he is pro-choice because his party demands it of him, rather than out of pro-choice conviction.

JonF,

I think the reasoning is that 'pharmakeia' was understood to connote a variety of practices, the most common of which was procuring abortions, thus when St. John talks about 'pharmakos' one of the connotations he intends is of abortion.

As for John the Baptist, it seems to me that the reason Luke makes a point of meantioning that he leapt is that it was before quickening, i.e. preternaturally early, hence a miracle. If it had been after quickening it would not have been exceptionable and therefore St. Luke would have no reason to mention it.

Hector

Another (considerable) factor in the popularity of the death penalty Europe as well as a partial understanding of Pope John Paul II thinking on the subject. Is as follows.

America has no history of the death penalty being used as a political weapon. Europe in contrast has a long history of capital punishment (from the guillotine to the gulags) being used to suppress political & religious dissent.

"fetusphile"

Sorry that we value the dignity of every homo sapien. Enjoy the company of others who have claimed that some homo sapiens aren't persons, buddy. And you forgot to include "Repiglican" in your comment.

DMon: thanks for the reply (honestly). My point was about word-choice... I can understand (although disagree) if you think that some Catholic beliefs seem irrational, but absurd? No. As you noted in the definition you provided, something that's absurd is *obviously* opposed to reason. But given that folks from all over the map -- intellectually- and politically-speaking -- have embraced these beliefs, "absurd" is the wrong word. Plenty of truths which contemporary Americans recognize & accept (e.g. heliocentrism) would have seemed irrational not too long ago, but that doesn't mean that they were *absurd* just because some people thought they were ridiculous.

But again, this is just a matter of semantics, and hence not perhaps wasting any more of our time. Again, though, thanks for the response.

Re: If it had been after quickening it would not have been exceptionable and therefore St. Luke would have no reason to mention it.

I don't agree. Normally even a older fetus would have no awareness of whom his mother was meeting. So pre-born John leaping his mother's womb was evidence of precocious prophetic ability. )I know ,teh non-religious folk are going to come back with a bunch of snarks-- for just once, out of simple courtesy, can y'all leave it alone?). But more conclusive is the liturgical calendar: the Feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist falls on June 24, three months after the Annunciation. Elizabeth was nearing her time when Mary came to visit.

Re: America has no history of the death penalty being used as a political weapon.

No, because being an efficient folk we generally dispensed with the unnecessary jurisprudence part when we wanted to murder people for political ends. Among the most grotesque perversions of morality I've ever seen are the old postcards of lynchings they used to sell, some showing picnics and jollity in progress, with frollicking children even, while some poor Black guy was strung up in the background.

Chris replies: "Sorry that we value the dignity of every homo sapien. Enjoy the company of others who have claimed that some homo sapiens aren't persons, buddy. And you forgot to include "Repiglican" in your comment."

That's because there was no need for it. It's not like we were talking about the gratuitous murder of Iraqis by your Repiglican "pro-life" allies.

As for homo sapiens and the fetus, it's an interesting semantic way to approach it, since fetuses lack sapience, and there has been disagreement even within your all-wise Church as to the time of "ensoulment," as has been discussed above.

I would gladly run over a million month-old fetuses with a lawnmower to avoid the death of (or harm to) my wife, chuckles, and I suspect you also observe a degree of difference (however small) between such a fetus and a born child. Or maybe you don't due to some sort of insanity or moral malignancy. Either way, I'm happy to live in a country where your sort is not in charge.

Fritz,

Glad to see you are still intellectually dishonest. Isn't lying a sin? Note that I didn't say that the Church currently teaches that birth control is ok or that first term abortion is ok, which is what the links you provided state. Rather, I stated that the Church had a very different view on those issues once upon a time.

Hat tip: you might try posting links that aren't completely biases sources. Of course the Catholic Church is going to say it didn't make "mistakes".

DarwinCatholic,

Obfuscation suits you. Nice how, like Fritz, you provide no links or evidence to show what the ancient Church's position on birth control was. Rather, you post yet another droll link on the Church's current teaching.

I will concede that the Catholic Church doesn't condone pulling out, only avoiding intercourse during peroids of peak fertility. Isn't that strange, that avoiding sex is ok but preventing sperm from being released during sex isn't? Wouldn't you call that sort of logic absurd? It certainly is unbiblical.

"the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."

By that definition, capital punishment in the US is wrong, since jails are easily sufficient. Therefore, my point stands. Or more specifically, DumbQuestion's point stands.

I will reiterate from my first post, since arguing over whether quickening had already occured or not when Mary visited Elizabeth seems...counterproductive:

1. outlawing abortion won't end abortion. 2. there are other policies enacted by politicians that are equally sinful, yet the Church does not stress these with such weight. 3. if the Church wanted to end abortion, they would simply work to education and promote birth control.

Back to Ross' original post, didn't the Church learn the lessons of interfering in temporal politics when the king of France slapped the Pope in the face in the middle ages?

And I'm sure that you'd gladly run over a million of people like me to avoid the death of your wife as well.

A homo sapiens is nothing more than a member of the species homo sapiens; it's a biological definition. Neonates lack sapience as well.

The difference between us, Moe, is this: I'm willing to grant you what you don't grant me: respect and acknowledgment of your dignity & worth. But then, you lack an ultimate foundation for human dignity & rights anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that premise working itself out in your conduct.

BTW, in a country where my sort is in charge, *every* human being of *every* age would be respected and valued. And we have seen a country where your sort was in charge: the USSR, where atheistic bliss ruled the roost.

That turned out well.

Freddiemac,

Please cite an authoritative Catholic thinker prior to the 20th century who held that abortion was permissible in cases other than the death of the mother. Please cite the exact text and provide your interpretation of it. Authoritative meaning ideally an Apostle, Church Father, Doctor of the Church, or any Pope of your choosing. Most of the early patristic writings are online so it shouldn't be too difficult, if such writings exist.


That doesn't mean, in itself, that abortion is wrong. I think that the church has been wrong about things before. As an Anglican I believe that moral questions should be decided on the basis of the combination of scripture, tradition, and natural reason. One or two of these alone might not make up my mind, but when something stands condemned by scripture, tradition _and_ reason then I can see no way around the fact that it is an evil. Abortion is one of these things.

JonF,

If quickening had already occured when Elizabeth met Mary then John's leaping could have been a coincidence. No it makes more sense to me to assume that the occurrence was notable not just because of the timing but because of John's early stage of development.

Chris replies: "And I'm sure that you'd gladly run over a million of people like me to avoid the death of your wife as well."

Actually I would not. Nor would she. That's because we're not like you and the Repiglicans, I suppose.

"A homo sapiens is nothing more than a member of the species homo sapiens; it's a biological definition. Neonates lack sapience as well."

No shit, Sherlock. Of course "member" is the operative word there, and various human cultures have differed - and continue to differ - as to whether a fetus qualifies. This is why a funeral for a miscarriage is nearly unheard of in this society, and why the would-be parents of said miscarriage are not accorded the same shock and sympathy that the parents of a victim of crib death are. You may not like the distinction, and you may disagree with it, but if you deny it you just look like a Fitz and a fool. (Pardon the redundancy.)

"The difference between us, Moe, is this: I'm willing to grant you what you don't grant me: respect and acknowledgment of your dignity & worth. But then, you lack an ultimate foundation for human dignity & rights anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that premise working itself out in your conduct."

Your "ultimate foundation" says that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus gets tortured eternally, which strikes me as both exceptionally undignified and fucking stupid, but I acknowledge your right to hold such a belief.

"BTW, in a country where my sort is in charge, *every* human being of *every* age would be respected and valued. And we have seen a country where your sort was in charge: the USSR, where atheistic bliss ruled the roost."

When your sort ruled Europe it was called the Dark Ages, and for good reason. And your sort ran the Holocaust, though of course you'll deny it.

I despise communism and consider it to be a secular religion modeled on Christianity - with the same bullshit offer of a future utopia in exchange for a lifetime of servitude. I have no use for authoritarian forms of government no matter what the underlying philosophy is - yours or theirs.

I'm surprised that I have to explain such things so often around here, but then I know how difficult it is for you hierarchical natural lackeys to believe that not everyone is like you.

I just had a couple other thoughts.

All this talk of proportionality strikes me as strangely consequentialist for Catholics and Ross in particular. (And to be clear here, I'm not Catholic, I'm just speaking as an ignorant outsider here.) If we were talking about torture and the "ticking bomb" scenario, I was under the impression that Catholic teaching would oppose torture no matter how big the hypothetical bomb in question would be. Or, at least, you wouldn't be denied communion for refusing to torture in that instance--even though I can imagine a Fitz-like congregation of bomb survivors and widows giving you the stinkeye on the way to the altar. But large numbers alone don't seem able to carry the day.

There's a difference between committing an immoral act and failing to stop an immoral act. So one hypothetical candidate refuses to stop private individuals from getting abortions, the other hypothetical candidate says that he will engage in torture as a matter of state policy. If large numbers alone compel the Catholic to pick the first one, does that mean that large numbers of potential fatalities compel the Catholic to support torture in some instances?

And, more broadly, at what point does it become necessary as a matter of faith to restrict by violent or coercive force the evil deeds of my neighbors? Is it possible to be a Catholic anarchist or pacifist, refusing to engage in any violent or coercive force at all?

"Actually I would not. Nor would she. That's because we're not like you and the Repiglicans, I suppose."

C'mon, Moe. I just got done saying that I acknowledge the dignity of *all* human beings. How can you then say we're different on that? Think before you type!

"Of course "member" is the operative word there, and various human cultures have differed - and continue to differ - as to whether a fetus qualifies."

I could care less what a culture says when the biology (embryology in particular) is co