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Matters of Life and Death

03 Jun 2008 12:22 pm

I agree with E.J. Dionne that whatever one thinks of the question of denying communion to pro-choice Catholic politicians, denying communion to Catholic citizens who express support for pro-choice Catholics politicians is a very, very bad idea. There is a crucial distinction between voting for a deeply-immoral measure as a legislator, and voting for a legislator who happens to support deeply-immoral measures; the former is never justifiable, but the latter course of action may well be, depending on the set of issues at stake in the election. Here I would cite these remarks from Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput, which Andrew called "metaphorically weird," but which (naturally enough) I found nicely phrased and essentially correct:

So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can’t, and I won’t. But I do know some serious Catholics— people whom I admire—who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken, but at least they sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And most important: They don’t keep quiet about it; they don’t give up; they keep lobbying their party and their representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn. Catholics can vote for pro-choice candidates if they vote for them despite—not because of—their pro-choice views.

But [Catholics who support pro-choice candidates] also need a compelling proportionate reason to justify it. What is a “proportionate” reason when it comes to the abortion issue? It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life—which we most certainly will. If we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed.

What this implies, I think, is that a pro-lifer can in good conscience support a pro-choice candidate only for reasons that go directly to issues of life and death on a scale proportionate to the scale of the abortion industry as licensed by Roe v. Wade. I think that this calculus points toward a distinction between foreign and domestic policy debates, with the former, as a general rule, offering much more plausible grounds for casting a vote for a pro-choice politician than the latter. In debates over foreign affairs, voters are asked to pass judgment on policies that often lead directly to the death of innocents on a large scale; the same simply cannot be said of most domestic controversies, at least in the contemporary United States, which is why the abortion issue weighs so heavily (and rightfully so) on the consciences of Catholic voters. Obviously many liberals would claim otherwise - i.e. a vote against S-CHIP is a vote to let thousands of children die! - but I think those arguments become very strained very quickly, especially when they're expanded to include putatively "life and death" issues like education, say, or the health of the labor movement.

In practice, this means I'm much more sympathetic to a pro-life Catholic who's supporting Barack Obama in order to vote against the life-and-death consequences of American interventionism, in Iraq and elsewhere - even though I'm skeptical about the merits of that particular calculus - than I am to a pro-life Catholic who's voting for Obama because he thinks the distribution of the American tax burden conflicts with Catholic social thought. Or again, even as I disagreed with their assessment, I would have been much more sympathetic to a pro-life Mondale voter who took the view that Ronald Reagan's foreign policy was raising the risk of thermonuclear war above and beyond any reasonable or acceptable level than to a pro-life Mondalenik who thought Reagan wasn't doing enough to maintain the "preferential option for the poor" that Catholic social teaching calls for.

Note, too, that this is a separate question from the issue of whether casting a pro-life vote actually has any chance to produce pro-life policies, or whether the dream of overturning Roe is essentially hopeless, and the alliance between pro-lifers and the GOP essentially fruitless. I can certainly imagine a circumstance in which the impossibility of the pro-life cause makes it plausible to vote for a pro-choice candidate with a clear conscience even when grave matters aren't at stake, but as I've argued before, I think we're some distance from that state of affairs.

Comments (131)

I think these metaphysical micromanagements are both silly and disingenous.

Wouldn't it have been just as amoral to vote for a politician that supported the war in Iraq? Surely the thousands of deaths as a result of this are equally a blood stain. Or are Iraqi lives not as valuable as American embryos?

Is voting for a politician who says they are pro-life really a pro-life vote? Other than the possibility that there will be a Supreme Court vacancy for the President to appoint and the Senate to confirm, what can any other politician possibly do?

The problem with the Catholic Church goes far beyond this abortion issue. Because if you read the encyclicals, the Church is against contraception. I find it hilarious that the Church was ashamed to openly teach this doctrine until a few years ago. Now for the Church to try and force a wedge with their own disallusioned congregation over whom they vote for and why is rather pathetic, in light of the Church's own inability to protect children from the Church itself.

The Church has a lot of problems right now. While it may be doctrinally correct that abortion is wrong, its political stance on this is fundamentally absurd. 1. outlawing abortion won't end abortion. 2. there are other policies enacted by politicians that are equally sinful, yet the Church does not stress these with such weight. 3. if the Church wanted to end abortion, they would simply work to education and promote birth control. It is as simple as that. Why pulling out early is Ok but preventing ovulation is not is absurd.

Also, your argument about health care not fitting into the Catholic morality equation is fradulent.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0510-06.htm

The high rate of infant mortality in the US is something to be concerned over, if one is concerned about the "dignity and sanctity of human life". But that doesn't really seem to be a concern of the American Catholic appartus does it? Who cares about extending health care to poor blacks so that infant mortality in black communities would decline? Apparently not the Catholic Church. And no surprise, since black Americans by and large aren't Catholic.

There is simply no end to the mischief that can be generated when superstition is conflated with authority. I've got about as much faith in the Catholic church as moral arbiter as I have that Jesus's mom was a virgin, that Jesus came back from the dead and then floated to heaven.

Why pulling out early is Ok but preventing ovulation is not is absurd.

Look, you're talking about religious beliefs here. The punishment we're talking about is the denial of an extremely bland cracker and some grape juice.

Absurdity is just all there is to talk about on this front.

Your argument only makes sense if you're willing to grant the premise that Catholic belief should be wedded to one of the two political parties currently existing in the US.

A social movement dedicated to reducing poverty, preventing war, and preventing abortion would be quite a bit more humble and effective than the spiteful culture war tactics that Kmiec's nameless jihadi priest prefers.

freddiemac, please don't treat the Church as a monolith. Catholic Charities, for example, does a lot of tough, unglamorous, underappreciated work in this country and elsewhere.

Who cares about extending health care to poor blacks so that infant mortality in black communities would decline? Apparently not the Catholic Church.

This is "apparent?" What country are you living in? I would have thought it obvious to even the most casual observer that the Roman Catholic Church operates one of the largest hospital networks in the country -- at least if we're talking about hospitals available to poor people. Also, I think there's a fairly prominent traditional in Catholic social thought of advocating for more spending on programs benefiting the economically vulnerable.

All well and good, but I'm waiting for tomorrow's lecture on enumerating angelic pin-dancers.

"It’s the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life—which we most certainly will."

This is exceptionally funny. I guess "heaven" will be filled with winged zygotes and tiny fetuses zipping around playing Quidditch.

The best part is the "most certainly will." I do my best to resist thinking that all religious people are insane or stupid, but crap like this makes it very difficult.

Jasper,

I'm living in the USA. In what country do you reside? I reside in a country where hospitals, Catholic or not, don't assist in things for poor pregnant mothers like ultrasounds. I live in a country where follow ups for poor mothers with poor babies aren't available, Catholic hospital or no. I live in reality, and I can see that the infant mortality rate among certain people in this country is higher than certain others, and I can put two and two together and get four. I also live in a country where the Catholic lobby for social programs for the poor is inconsequential in comparison to the pro-life lobby.

I should add that I also live in a country where the Catholic Church spends millions of dollars defending pedophiles from justice.

I'm with Moe on this one. I tried mightily to take Chaput seriously, but he ultimately failed the laugh-out-loud test.

If your political decisions are driven by an absolute certainty that dead people have guilt-inducing conversations with aborted fetuses in a supernatural realm that no living person has ever seen, you might as well base them on a belief that Death Eaters are trying to seize control of the Ministry. At least the latter philosophy would probably give you a healthy skepticism of Presidential signing statements.

I am no expert on Catholic theology, but I thought embryos -- along with babies who die in or shortly after childbirth -- are consigned to hell (or in a later gloss, to limbo) solely because they had not had the opportunity to be baptized. That suggests that Archbishop Charles Chapute (and I guess Ross) means that those who vote for pro-choice candidates will "most certainly" see them in hell.

I must say I do not understand anyone who can accept with equanimity a God who consigns innocent souls to the everlasting fire. As a Universalist, my theology is rather different.

As a prolife liberal Catholic I also consider the effect of incentives on the abortion rate. The Republicans profess an intent to ban abortion but their incentives- in terms of cutting federal subsidies to low income child care, cutting food stamps and Title 8- will have the effect, in practice, of making it harder for a woman in tight circumstances to feel she can survive if she has the child. When our allegedly pro-life Republican administration makes contraception more expensive and harder to get for the poor- and regards abstinence as the only acceptable solution for ADULTS- I feel like tearing my hair out.

If the choice is between forbidding abortion while providing incentives that PROMOTE abortion, vs. allowing abortion while providing incentives that discourage abortion, I'll take the second path.

What's the big deal? All you have to do, if you are at all concerned with this, is go to convession right after you vote. Absolution, what a wonderful thing!

Even assuming that every aborted fetus has full personhood, if you expand the concept of "foreign affairs" to include not just war, but development and ecological issues on which Catholics might be similar to liberals, I think proportionality is achieved fairly quickly. You've got all the fetus-angels on one side, and all the victims of starvation and disease on the other.

I still think there's a good chance you'll get some restrictions on late term abortions, financial support for pregnancy and early childhood development, and abstinance/contraception education in an Obama victory. Just like McCain will have an easier time passing immigration legislation, Obama would have an easier time pushing through a grand compromise on abortion. (He hasn't talked compromise in a while, but it's primary season. He sounded different in Audacity of Hope.) Even if you don't think this could significantly reduce the number of abortions (and you wouldn't really have any way of knowing until we tried) if such measures actually failed to reduce abortion numbers they would leave you in a better position to call for more legislation.

Simply put, prohibition should be the *last* step, not the first step. The pro-life movement has that backwards. Surely the autonomy a women deserves over her own body exceeds the autonomy a person deserves over their money. If you're not willing to spend *money* to alleviate the number of abortions, you shouldn't be willing to take away rights. Deep down everyone knows that, which is why Roe v. Wade hangs around so stubbornly. Put some money where your mouth is and maybe you'll convince somebody.

I think if it is really the proportionality in the number of lives you're fighting for rather than the legal principle of Roe's illegitimacy, the case for Obama is at least as good as that for McCain. Keep in mind that the danger with McCain is not a continuation of Iraq but the initiation of future wars--maybe even starting a Second Cold War with China, which would bring back a nuclear Doomsday Clock.

One VERY important aspect of the issue not raised in Ross's post above is the issue of the "scandal" (note: a theologically specific term) presented to the faithful of a specific parish when communion is received by a openly schismatic politician.

So, you have St Anywhere USA parish... Among its congregation are multiple groups doing pro-life work from adoption services to pre-natal care among the underprivileged to political lobbing and voter drives. You also have multiple parishioners with unplanned pregnancies, children with Down syndrome, and underage pregnant girls specifically NOT aborting but bearing the child out of faithful Christian duty and witness.

Now - suddenly you have rank politician Bob the abort’er who meanders up the isle every Sunday with the rest of the (bona fide) faithful and receives communion.

Unlike the rest of the faithful who are (naturally) sinners, Bob the abort’er is in open & public defiance of clear Church teaching. Unlike any other congregant no speculation or hearsay or guesswork is required to KNOW that Bob stands against the will of Christ.

This is the element of "scandal" Bobs reception of communion has on the life of a parish. There are any number of reasons why Any individual may be denied communion: but the case of a public servant and elected politician (as distinguishable from even a judge) is that his policy positions are a matter of public record & as a Catholic he is charged with working for social justice regardless of the political cost.

This aspect of “scandal” goes to the heart of the specific denial of communion for pro-“choice” Catholic politicians. Understanding this element of the issue is necessary for a full understanding of subject.

Why do we never hear about pro death penalty politicians being denied communion? This is surely an "un-Catholic" position for a politician to take.

One VERY important aspect of the issue not raised in Ross's post above is the issue of the "scandal" (note: a theologically specific term) presented to the faithful of a specific parish when communion is received by a openly schismatic politician.

So, you have St Anywhere USA parish... Among its congregation are multiple groups doing pro-life work from adoption services to pre-natal care among the underprivileged to political lobbing and voter drives. You also have multiple parishioners with unplanned pregnancies, children with Down syndrome, and underage pregnant girls specifically NOT aborting but bearing the child out of faithful Christian duty and witness.

Now - suddenly you have rank politician Bob the abort’er who meanders up the isle every Sunday with the rest of the (bona fide) faithful and receives communion.

Unlike the rest of the faithful who are (naturally) sinners, Bob the abort’er is in open & public defiance of clear Church teaching. Unlike any other congregant no speculation or hearsay or guesswork is required to KNOW that Bob stands against the will of Christ.

This is the element of "scandal" Bobs reception of communion has on the life of a parish. There are any number of reasons why Any individual may be denied communion: but the case of a public servant and elected politician (as distinguishable from even a judge) is that his policy positions are a matter of public record & as a Catholic he is charged with working for social justice regardless of the political cost.

This aspect of “scandal” goes to the heart of the specific denial of communion for pro-“choice” Catholic politicians. Understanding this element of the issue is necessary for a full understanding of the subject.

Ross,

I can see the argument for your prioritizing abortion above other Catholic social teachings, but why, do you think, is there so little push-back against politicians (pro-life or pro-choice) who blatantly disregard those teachings? If the preferential option for the poor is not as important as abortion, surely it's important, right? So why don't we hear more about that from George Weigel, RJN, Michael Novak and the like?

What a depressing comments section.

freddiemac: the Church opposes "pulling out" and has publicly opposed that action and all artificial methods of birth control for well over a thousand years. The Church's opposition may be news to you, but most people (Catholic and not) have been well aware of it for quite some time.

David A: the Church does not purport to know what, precisely, happens to unborn or unbaptized children after their death; its teachings on this issue have always been speculative. But none of those speculations ever suggested that the children would be consigned "to the everlasting fire."

Tiparillo: the Church teaches that the sacrament of penance is of no effect unless the penitent has: a) genuine contrition; and b) a firm purpose of amendment.

There are good reasons to doubt whether Catholicism's teachings about eternity are true, and better reasons to doubt whether its teachings about moral law are true. But nobody here seems able to come up with any; throwing mud being easier and apparently more fun.

Apologies for double post.

It is a mistake to weigh issues as opposed to consequences. This can be easily seen by considering a candidate for county tax assessor. Admittedly, the fairness of property tax assessments is a far less weighty issue than the legality of abortion. However, the county tax assessor has far more impact on the first than the second. Thus, in considering whether there exist proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-abortion county tax assessor, the weight assigned to the abortion issue must be discounted by the likelihood that the outcome of this particular election will have any impact on that issue. I imagine that most people would agree that it could be discounted to zero and that the candidate's position on abortion is irrelevant in determining whether there are proportionate reasons to vote for that candidate.

The article alludes to this consideration in the final paragraph, but it deserves far more than a passing reference. There is an entirely reasonable argument to be made that the outcome of electoral contests will have no significant impact on the legality of abortion in the U.S. If that is correct, then the weight assigned to this issue can be discounted to near zero and even a far less weighty issue (e.g. S-CHIP) could supply a proportionate reason to vote for the pro-abortion candidate.

DumbQuestion asks why bishops don't call out pro-death-penalty Catholic politicians. Ben asks why they don't call out Catholic politicians who fail to prioritize Catholic social teaching.

The answer to both questions is that under Catholic doctrine, abortion is always and everywhere cold-blooded murder of an innocent person. It's therefore always wrong; the bishop can say with confidence that anyone who supports it is supporting a moral evil.

War and social policy are, in contrast, not as clear. Catholic teaching allows "just" wars, and whether a particular war is "just" or not is a judgment call. Catholic teaching says that we should help the poor; but reasonable minds can differ as to whether the global poor are helped more by foreign aid or by free markets. So bishops will allow Catholic politicians to take different public positions on war A or law B.

Ben

"I can see the argument for your prioritizing abortion above other Catholic social teachings, but why, do you think, is there so little push-back against politicians (pro-life or pro-choice) who blatantly disregard those teachings? If the preferential option for the poor is not as important as abortion, surely it's important, right? So why don't we hear more about that from George Weigel, RJN, Michael Novak and the like?"

To answer you question (and many other allusion to this issue of priority) no politician or Catholic politician is arguing (as your example indicates) that there not be a preferential treatment for the poor.

To use another example: Just War. The analogy with abortion would not be that different individuals argue what a apt application of Just War is, but rather... If different individual argued whether or not wars needed to be just to begin with.

Consumatopia and Anne E's posts make the larger point. People care about whichever issues they care about. They make the case-- and a case can be made either way-- that the issues of importance to them are the most important ones.

A visible Catholic movement outside of politics would be much more effective than shoehorning allegiance to Catholicism into parties, where it doesn't fit. Really, all that does is indicate that party allegiance is more important than religious adherence or professed morality.

Ross: You need an editor. This piece is too long, and so is the one below it. Pithy, man, pithy.

freddiemac (says)

"The high rate of infant mortality in the US is something to be concerned over, if one is concerned about the "dignity and sanctity of human life". But that doesn't really seem to be a concern of the American Catholic apparatus does it? Who cares about extending health care to poor blacks so that infant mortality in black communities would decline? Apparently not the Catholic Church. And no surprise, since black Americans by and large aren't Catholic."

Oh - just brilliant, what an informed opinion.

#1. We have Medicare & Medicade Multibillion dollar programs. Poor people have healthcare - it’s the lower & middle classes whose healthcare is in jeopardy at any given time through their employer.

#2. (and most importantly) The American Catholic Bishops Conference was (and is) prepared to fully back a national health care regime. They already have. A little reported FACT is that during Hillary care the American Catholic Bishops Conference was onboard to back the proposal until (guess what?) negotiations for their support broke down because the considerable feminist lobby of the Democrats demanded that federally funded abortion on demand be a non-negotiable.

#3. the proper analogy with abortion vs. socialized healthcare would be if the argument was “lets save health care dollars & tax dollars by killing the unwanted children because they are a burden to their parents & society” Which is what abortion essentially is.

Joe Magarac,

Wrong. If you were familiar with Catholic history, you'd know that contraception was widely taught to the faithful for centuries. The trenchant position on contraception is 19th century. The Church endorses family planning only in the sense of the rythm system, which is basically pulling out early. You are confusing the Catholic Church with the LDS, which does not endorse any family planning of any kind, and never has.

You are also being disingenous on DumbQuestion's question. The Catholic Church has unequivocally stated that capital punishment is wrong. So why doesn't it stand up against state sponsored murder? You state just wars, but that was not part of the question. You are trying to mislead.

Fitz you say,

"We have Medicare & Medicade Multibillion dollar programs. Poor people have healthcare - it’s the lower & middle classes whose healthcare is in jeopardy at any given time through their employer"

Does medicare and medicade provide for prenatal care like free sonograms to poor mothers? Does it pay for extended hospital stays for new mothers and babies? Once again facts get in the way of your cute little diversion. The fact is that poor people, and poor blacks specifically, don't have access to the great American health care system. The fact is that there is a higher infant mortality rate in those communities and it is preventable. But rather than spend money and political capital on these poor black babies, the Catholic Church is spending millions defending pedophiles and worrying about babies not born. Your argument is a fraud.

There are good reasons to doubt whether Catholicism's teachings about eternity are true, and better reasons to doubt whether its teachings about moral law are true. But nobody here seems able to come up with any...

Mr.Magarac seems not to understand the meaning of the word absurd. Some assistance for him from wiktionary:

Contrary to reason or propriety; obviously and flatly opposed to manifest truth; inconsistent with the plain dictates of common sense; logically contradictory; nonsensical; ridiculous...

Apparently neither Ross nor the Church hierarchy has any problem with pro-torture politicians, the fact that pro-choice merely allows abortions while pro-torture actively creates torture notwithstanding.

Oh, and here is more Catholic history for you:

Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening". It wasn't until about 100 years ago that their position changed to "life begins at conception".

1. Instead of discussing round and round the subject, it would be useful to examine the facts about abortion. Such facts are available at

http://www.abortionfacts.com/abortion/numbers.asp

2. If some find numbers impressive, consider that in New York City alone, there are ANNUALLY close to 95,000 "Voluntary Terminations of Pregnancy". In the U.S. approximately 1.8 million, ANNUALLY.

Total casualties in Iraq have been approximately 92,000 since the beginning.

I note that U.S. forces are voluntary. As every child will say at some point "I didn't ask to be born". Does not the responsibility go back to the mother? [Who is generally not a helpless shrinking violet but a willing participant in the activiry which "got" her pregnant].

In these as in other social matters, it might be well to read Thomas Sowell's THE VISION OF THE ANOINTED. This black author is not kind to college survey courses, conducted by and for the benefit of THE ANOINTED.

freddie, you need to review your church teaching and history... the Church has never permitted contraception; if you have something which disproves that, provide it. Nor is the "rhythm method" (which hasn't been taught for 40 years) coitus interruptus, but was based on using a calendar to make an educated guess as to when a woman was fertile or infertile. Nor can you point to a Church teaching which legitimated "pre-quickening" abortion... while scholars debated when ensoulment occurred, they never said that abortion was permissible. In fact, an early church text (the Didache, from the 1st century) explicitly forbade abortion.

The Catholic Church does not view capital punishment as intrinsically evil, i.e. never allowable in any circumstance. The Church's position is that in a modern country there is little reason for it, considering that modern security systems in those countries make escape extremely unlikely. John Paul II's encyclical The Gospel of Life explains this, as does the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Having said that, the Church *does* call for the repudiation of capital punishment in places like the US; the US bishops have been very clear on this.

DMonteith: You apparently see Catholicism (theism in general?) as absurd, but the term (absurd) becomes meaningless in the face of some of those who have embraced Catholicism, i.e. public intellectuals of every background. If you really want to enter into a dialogue (perhaps you don't), then you'll have to offer *some* rationale for your statements. If not, why bother?

Freddiemac

You seem more interested in spreading faulty outright & easily researched ‘facts”

“If you were familiar with Catholic history, you'd know that contraception was widely taught to the faithful for centuries”

“The Church endorses family planning only in the sense of the rythm system, which is basically pulling out early”

The Catholic Church has unequivocally stated that capital punishment is wrong.

(all three flat out false and misleadingly simplistic)

Rather than entering into a reasoned discourse about the behavior and teachings of the Catholic Church.

You then state.

“Does medicare and medicade provide for prenatal care like free sonograms to poor mothers? Does it pay for extended hospital stays for new mothers and babies?


“But rather than spend money and political capital on these poor black babies”


But the Church spends millions on prenatal care for black women. I am personally involved in pregnancy centers for the underprivileged that provider the whole host of these services. Catholic hospitals are famous for running at a loss and maintaining healthcare standards for patients unable to pay while other hospitals cut costs.

All this on top of the Catholic Bishop Conferences pronounced support of health care programs for the poor & universality (as stated above) Not to mention the established Catholic support for European initiatives of the same ilk.

As well as, and on top of our considerable support for unborn children.

Your argument is a fraud.

(and your reference to pedophilia a gratuitous shot in this context, denoting a crass and uncharitable mindset)

"Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening". It wasn't until about 100 years ago that their position changed to "life begins at conception".

Does the ignorance never end? What a common and easily disprovable ruse! Hint "Didache"

Freddiemac,

Abortion was not always regarded as murder by the broad Christian tradition, but it was always regarded as a sin. The book of Jeremiah implies that life begins well before 'quickening', and the story of St. John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth implies the same. Abortion is condemned explicitly in the Didache, which is an authentic codification of apostolic testimony and is accepted as scripture by the church of Ethiopia. Several visions of heaven and hell ("Apocalypse of St. Peter", etc.) attributed to the Apostles were popular with the early church and given quasi-canonical status; they also explicitly condemn abortion. While these works are not part of the modern canon, they were never accused of heresy or false moral teaching.

Contraception was, also, regarded by the Catholic church as a sin from the beginning. I think that they were, and are, wrong on that and on some other related questions of sexual morality. Abortion, however, is disticnt from contraception in the same way that war is distinct from diplomacy. The case against abortion is almost airtight based not only on broad Christian tradition but also on scripture and natural reason. One is forced to the conclusion that the Catholic position on abortion is correct- if by nothing else, then by the fact that abortion has brought along a host of other ills in its wake.

"In the course of history, the Fathers of the Church, her Pastors and her Doctors have taught the same doctrine [that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development] - the various opinions on the infusion of the spiritual soul did not introduce any doubt about the illicitness of abortion. It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of penal sanctions. Excellent authors allowed for this first period more lenient case solutions which they rejected for following periods. But it was never denied at that time that procured abortion, even during the first days, was objectively grave fault. This condemnation was in fact unanimous. [6] (emphasis added).

"This teaching is reflected in subsequent theological and confessional manuals. In his Summa Theologica Antoninus (1389-1453) Archbishop of Florence, and like Aquinas a Dominican, considers whether homicide can be justified to avoid another evil. His examples include the case of abortion, and he maintains that if a foetus is animate then it is impermissible to kill it so as to save the mother, and impermissible for the mother, even though she may be going to die, to accelerate her death to save the foetus (ST, II, 7, 8). Another Domincan, Silvester Prieras (1456-1523) in his widely referred to Summa summarium draws the distinction between abortion pre- and post-hominization, and offers the direction that in circumstances where it is uncertain which may have been performed the penitent should be required to confess to and be absolved of the greater sin,.but punished according to the lesser one. This is an example of the ‘lenient case solution’ referred to in the 1974 ‘Declaration’. Other later, and also prominent works, such as the Enchiridion sive manuale confessariorum et penitentium of Martinus Azpilcueta (1492-1586) follow the same course. By stages, however, a change of view begins to emerge about the facts on which the pastoral practice was based. In his De formatrice foetus, Thomas Fieinus (1567-1631), a professor of medicine at Louvain, argues that the soul is present from conception. What earlier writers, following Aristotle thought of as a succession of formative principles (souls), each replacing its predecessor, can be viewed as successively emergent functions attributable to a single original principle (brought to life by the effect of intercourse). Fieinus then claims, rather in the style of later critics of delayed hominization, that if there were no rational soul present until the exercise of higher mental functions then one would have to say that rational animation only occurs two to three years after birth. Another influential figure, Paulo Zacchia (1584-1659) argues in Questiones medico-legalis that the soul which organizes the development of the conceptus is internal to it (i.e. not a remote cause such as the father, mediated by an instrumental power in the semen)."

http://www2.franciscan.edu/plee/aquinas_on_human_ensoulment.htm

Let's see...

http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/moderate_RC_position_on_contraception_abortion.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm

http://members.aol.com/revising/history.html

Any refutation links? Anyone?

I also seem to recall Pope John Paul II being against the war in Iraq. Wasn't it sinful then for Catholics to vote to re-elect him?

"One is forced to the conclusion that the Catholic position on abortion is correct- if by nothing else, then by the fact that abortion has brought along a host of other ills in its wake."

Other ills being the decline in violent crime since Roe vs. Wade?

Not to mention, I've heard argument that the word which is usually translated 'witch' in Leviticus, the Apocalypse of St. John, etc. is perhaps better translated as 'person who procures abortions', since it was commonly understood in Jewish and Christian antiquity that procuring abortions was the main presumed function of witches.

Hector,

From whom did you hear this? Any sources to suggest that witches meant abortioners?

"refutation links"

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/

Hat Tip:

When trying to understand what the Church has taught it is wise to reference –well - what the Church actually teaches

It is unwise to consult those who have a pronounced and clearly stated desire to misrepresent those teachings.

freddiemac,

On how many things can a person be wrong at once?

If you were familiar with Catholic history, you'd know that contraception was widely taught to the faithful for centuries.

Incorrect. The only controversy about contraception in the history of the Catholic Church regards what sort of sin it was, not whether it was a sin. This article on Catholic.com provides a brief summary:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

The Church endorses family planning only in the sense of the rythm system, which is basically pulling out early.

Also incorrect. The "rythm system" and its modern descentant NFP (natural family planning) consists of simply not having sex during fertile periods. To quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:158
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

You are also being disingenous on DumbQuestion's question. The Catholic Church has unequivocally stated that capital punishment is wrong.

Incorrect yet again. To quote the Catechism again:
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening". It wasn't until about 100 years ago that their position changed to "life begins at conception".

Also wrong. What was debated in the middle ages was whether abortion before "quickening" (the point when the baby begins to move -- which based on Aristotelian philosophy the medieval theologians assumed must be the point when the soul entered the body) was an act of murder or an act of contraception. Either was, it was considered a sin.

A visible Catholic movement outside of politics would be much more effective than shoehorning allegiance to Catholicism into parties, where it doesn't fit. Really, all that does is indicate that party allegiance is more important than religious adherence or professed morality.

There's something a bit... disingenuous here, no? The Catholic hierarchy has shilled for Democrats, over the years, as much or (probably) more than for Republicans. The only reason there's any "into parties" aspect here is because one party intentionally transformed itself into the "pro abortion, all the time, if you want a national level career in THIS party" group -- and the other, in some ways by default, became more solidly identified with opposition to the absolute abortion license. The only reason there's any "this party" aspect to this is that one party is quite deeply committed to murdering the unborn, and the other is at least willing to give lip service to the idea that perhaps that isn't a good thing in all circumstances. Don't blame the Church. Blame the Democrats.

A visible Catholic movement outside of politics would be much more effective than shoehorning allegiance to Catholicism into parties, where it doesn't fit. Really, all that does is indicate that party allegiance is more important than religious adherence or professed morality.

There's something a bit... disingenuous here, no? The Catholic hierarchy has shilled for Democrats, over the years, as much or (probably) more than for Republicans. The only reason there's any "into parties" aspect here is because one party intentionally transformed itself into the "pro abortion, all the time, if you want a national level career in THIS party" group -- and the other, in some ways by default, became more solidly identified with opposition to the absolute abortion license. The only reason there's any "this party" aspect to this is that one party is quite deeply committed to murdering the unborn, and the other is at least willing to give lip service to the idea that perhaps that isn't a good thing in all circumstances. Don't blame the Church. Blame the Democrats.

Re: Once upon a time the Catholic Church was okey dokey with abortion up until "quickening".

The quickening was set by convention at 40 days, at which point few women even know they are pregnant. Moroever the Church was not "OK" with abortion even then, it just regarded as a lesser sin.

Re: the story of St. John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth implies the same.

John the Baptist was already "quickened" since Mary went to visit Elizabeth after hearing that she was pregnant (implying some time had passed since conception) and John leapt in his mother's womb, which means he was "quick" (the quickening was associated with fetal movement).

Re: I've heard argument that the word which is usually translated 'witch' in Leviticus, the Apocalypse of St. John, etc. is perhaps better translated as 'person who procures abortions

I don't know about the Hebrew (I think the word is entirely obscure) but the Greek word "pharmakos" in the Septuagint means "potion brewer" (

Of course, the priest denying communion to Kmiec, wrong though Kmiec may be, is abusing his power and should be smacked down mightily by his bishop. Denying communion to John Kerry? I'm all aboard. To Doug Kmiec, who is making a legitimate, if IMO dumb, argument about proportionality, possible effects on things, etc.? It's not a grave scandal and sin to be naive and foolish, caught in the snares and delusions of "Hope", last I checked. Have mercy on us all if it is.

Also, freddiemac really doesn't know what he's talking about. Maguire is not exactly a great source to go to here -- the man's dishonest (and has long been either fundamentally confused or flatly heretical on the nature of the church's teaching authority) even for an academic with a huge axe to grind.

A (recent) old joke used to go:

Two Catholic women were gossiping over the fence & one said: "Did you here Megan McMurphy's boy has become a Republican"

The other woman answers "Oh no- that’s not true, I saw him at Mass this morning"

Political elegances are unavoidable it would seem (especially in the middle of a culture war) One of there principle drawbacks has already revealed itself.

However: this is in the situation of the Democrats not the “religious right”.

Catholics were a pivotal part of the FDR/Kennedy coalition. When the culture wars hit in the sixties & the democrats went the way of debauchery, abortion and anti-religion a huge swath of both Catholic voters & politicians found themselves stuck with political allegiances and party affiliation. Through the unions, loyalty to local Catholic politicians & solidarity on certain specific issues.

This demonstrates the danger of the Church becoming to identified with one particular party.

What Fitz and his fellow fetusphiles won't admit is that American Catholics are as split on abortion as other Americans are, and it is simply not a major voting issue for most of them. Like other Americans, they're more concerned with economic and security issues when voting. Fitz says Catholics were a major part of the FDR/Kennedy coalition, but can't bring himself to admit that they also voted for Bill Clinton rather convincingly - both times. As a group, Catholics are better educated and not as wacky as the fundies are - so don't let the fanaticism of celibate wingnuts like Fitz fool you.

For anyone who cares: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Understanding+Catholic+voters.-a0136262283

...the term (absurd) becomes meaningless in the face of some of those who have embraced Catholicism...

How so? The fact that some very impressive persons have embraced Catholicism does not make virgin birth, burning talking bushes, etc. any less absurd. It just means that otherwise very impressive people can believe some very silly things.

If you really want to enter into a dialogue (perhaps you don't), then you'll have to offer *some* rationale for your statements.

Well, I don't know about "dialogue". I was simply replying to Mr Magarac's assertion that no one here has provided a good reason to doubt the teachings of catholicism when in fact there have been a number of posts that point out that the absurdity of many of its tenets is a perfectly good reason to discount them.

Feel free to disagree with the premise that such things as virgin birth, rising from the dead, and turning water instantly into wine are absurd propositions. I have this cynical streak, however, that doubts the utility of offering "rationales" in an effort to engage in "dialogue" with those who reject this premise.

Not to mention that my natural skepticism of appeals to authority (to which these sorts of discussions invariably degenerate) are compounded when the authority in question is so patently self-serving and ridiculous.

But thanks for asking!

Won't admit? I just don't really see how it's relevant to the point at hand, Moe. Nominal Catholics, particularly if you don't qualify this by "attend Mass more than two-three times a year" are a cultural and (to some extent) ethnic group. They are an interesting political artifact, and of course human beings with souls and minds and worthy of study -- but they have little to do with who is in a state of public scandal and should not receive communion (Doug Kmiec? that's absurd and dangerous; John Kerry? seems like a reasonable thing to do).

That it's a scandal that more "Catholics" not only don't make the lives of the unborn a point of interest when voting, but that many are actually on the other side -- well, that's true. But it's slightly less of a scandal than it appears, given that some of those are folks who put "Catholic" down but it means very very little in their lives.

"Why do we never hear about pro death penalty politicians being denied communion"

TR: The death penalty is not actually condemned by the Catholic Church in all cases or to the same degree. Many believe it is, including archbishops, but many archbishops believe all kinds of things.

The Papal States had an executioner until the Papal States quit existing. Pope Pius XII defended executions. The idea execution is always wrong is a recent development not really supported by Christian tradition. It's mostly a European reaction to the horrors of WWII and the Holocaust. Still even Evangelium Vitae's statement that execution shouldn't occur "except in cases of absolute necessity" does not necessarily mean a total ban. Pope John Paul II's personal opinion was that such cases never occur, but his personal opinion is not to be confused with the teaching of the Church. That such cases truly never do occur has not clearly been stated by the Church at any point. Even if it was Pope John Paul II's statement was prefaced by statements on "advancements in rehabilitation" methods. A total condemnation of all executions in all times is not something, I feel, the Church can do remotely do plausibly.

In addition to that executions in the US haven't gone beyond 98 per annum since 1976. The statistics I've read indicate that about 130,000 abortions are performed after the 12th week and 1.2 million overall.

Thomas R

On a more practical level, There is no (supposed) Federal Constitutional Right that states must practice the death penalty.

We still maintain the ability as a free people to both limit & eliminate the death penalty. This is the case in the state I live in and recently New Jersey has been added to the list.

So, our robbed masters have generously allowed us the ability to effect political change.
Which is always nice in a “democracy”.

TMoC replies: "That it's a scandal that more "Catholics" not only don't make the lives of the unborn a point of interest when voting, but that many are actually on the other side -- well, that's true. But it's slightly less of a scandal than it appears, given that some of those are folks who put "Catholic" down but it means very very little in their lives."

Or perhaps it's just that it doesn't mean what it means to you.

But my point was mainly to counter the denseness of Fitz, who likes to pretend that Catholics are almost all as demented and obedient to the withered Church leadership as he is. They're not, and they're becoming less so as time goes on, which is a very, very good thing.

BTW, it's simply silly to suggest that Catholics are an ethnic group. I suppose I know what you're trying to get at with the comment, but it's simply not true, and the Catholic population in the US gets more diverse and diffused by the day.

Thomas R.,

Opposition to capital punishment (which is not a position with which I agree) is pretty common across Latin America as well as Europe. Support for the death penalty in Latin America tends to come more from left-wing, anti-clerical parties like the Mexican PRD. I agree that it's silly to compare the Catholic church position on abortion with its position on the death penalty. Capital punishment can be justified fairly readily in the Christian tradition, starting with the repentant thief on the cross; it also has a basis in the Platonism that was a kind of Greek forerunner to Christianity.

Marquis,

I don't know Kerry personally but I suspect from what I have heard of the man that he would strongly discourage his daughter, or friend, or any of his personal associates from having an abortion. (I wouldn't say the same of, for example, Ted Kennedy). I suspect that he is pro-choice because his party demands it of him, rather than out of pro-choice conviction.

JonF,

I think the reasoning is that 'pharmakeia' was understood to connote a variety of practices, the most common of which was procuring abortions, thus when St. John talks about 'pharmakos' one of the connotations he intends is of abortion.

As for John the Baptist, it seems to me that the reason Luke makes a point of meantioning that he leapt is that it was before quickening, i.e. preternaturally early, hence a miracle. If it had been after quickening it would not have been exceptionable and therefore St. Luke would have no reason to mention it.

Hector

Another (considerable) factor in the popularity of the death penalty Europe as well as a partial understanding of Pope John Paul II thinking on the subject. Is as follows.

America has no history of the death penalty being used as a political weapon. Europe in contrast has a long history of capital punishment (from the guillotine to the gulags) being used to suppress political & religious dissent.

"fetusphile"

Sorry that we value the dignity of every homo sapien. Enjoy the company of others who have claimed that some homo sapiens aren't persons, buddy. And you forgot to include "Repiglican" in your comment.

DMon: thanks for the reply (honestly). My point was about word-choice... I can understand (although disagree) if you think that some Catholic beliefs seem irrational, but absurd? No. As you noted in the definition you provided, something that's absurd is *obviously* opposed to reason. But given that folks from all over the map -- intellectually- and politically-speaking -- have embraced these beliefs, "absurd" is the wrong word. Plenty of truths which contemporary Americans recognize & accept (e.g. heliocentrism) would have seemed irrational not too long ago, but that doesn't mean that they were *absurd* just because some people thought they were ridiculous.

But again, this is just a matter of semantics, and hence not perhaps wasting any more of our time. Again, though, thanks for the response.

Re: If it had been after quickening it would not have been exceptionable and therefore St. Luke would have no reason to mention it.

I don't agree. Normally even a older fetus would have no awareness of whom his mother was meeting. So pre-born John leaping his mother's womb was evidence of precocious prophetic ability. )I know ,teh non-religious folk are going to come back with a bunch of snarks-- for just once, out of simple courtesy, can y'all leave it alone?). But more conclusive is the liturgical calendar: the Feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist falls on June 24, three months after the Annunciation. Elizabeth was nearing her time when Mary came to visit.

Re: America has no history of the death penalty being used as a political weapon.

No, because being an efficient folk we generally dispensed with the unnecessary jurisprudence part when we wanted to murder people for political ends. Among the most grotesque perversions of morality I've ever seen are the old postcards of lynchings they used to sell, some showing picnics and jollity in progress, with frollicking children even, while some poor Black guy was strung up in the background.

Chris replies: "Sorry that we value the dignity of every homo sapien. Enjoy the company of others who have claimed that some homo sapiens aren't persons, buddy. And you forgot to include "Repiglican" in your comment."

That's because there was no need for it. It's not like we were talking about the gratuitous murder of Iraqis by your Repiglican "pro-life" allies.

As for homo sapiens and the fetus, it's an interesting semantic way to approach it, since fetuses lack sapience, and there has been disagreement even within your all-wise Church as to the time of "ensoulment," as has been discussed above.

I would gladly run over a million month-old fetuses with a lawnmower to avoid the death of (or harm to) my wife, chuckles, and I suspect you also observe a degree of difference (however small) between such a fetus and a born child. Or maybe you don't due to some sort of insanity or moral malignancy. Either way, I'm happy to live in a country where your sort is not in charge.

Fritz,

Glad to see you are still intellectually dishonest. Isn't lying a sin? Note that I didn't say that the Church currently teaches that birth control is ok or that first term abortion is ok, which is what the links you provided state. Rather, I stated that the Church had a very different view on those issues once upon a time.

Hat tip: you might try posting links that aren't completely biases sources. Of course the Catholic Church is going to say it didn't make "mistakes".

DarwinCatholic,

Obfuscation suits you. Nice how, like Fritz, you provide no links or evidence to show what the ancient Church's position on birth control was. Rather, you post yet another droll link on the Church's current teaching.

I will concede that the Catholic Church doesn't condone pulling out, only avoiding intercourse during peroids of peak fertility. Isn't that strange, that avoiding sex is ok but preventing sperm from being released during sex isn't? Wouldn't you call that sort of logic absurd? It certainly is unbiblical.

"the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."

By that definition, capital punishment in the US is wrong, since jails are easily sufficient. Therefore, my point stands. Or more specifically, DumbQuestion's point stands.

I will reiterate from my first post, since arguing over whether quickening had already occured or not when Mary visited Elizabeth seems...counterproductive:

1. outlawing abortion won't end abortion. 2. there are other policies enacted by politicians that are equally sinful, yet the Church does not stress these with such weight. 3. if the Church wanted to end abortion, they would simply work to education and promote birth control.

Back to Ross' original post, didn't the Church learn the lessons of interfering in temporal politics when the king of France slapped the Pope in the face in the middle ages?

And I'm sure that you'd gladly run over a million of people like me to avoid the death of your wife as well.

A homo sapiens is nothing more than a member of the species homo sapiens; it's a biological definition. Neonates lack sapience as well.

The difference between us, Moe, is this: I'm willing to grant you what you don't grant me: respect and acknowledgment of your dignity & worth. But then, you lack an ultimate foundation for human dignity & rights anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that premise working itself out in your conduct.

BTW, in a country where my sort is in charge, *every* human being of *every* age would be respected and valued. And we have seen a country where your sort was in charge: the USSR, where atheistic bliss ruled the roost.

That turned out well.

Freddiemac,

Please cite an authoritative Catholic thinker prior to the 20th century who held that abortion was permissible in cases other than the death of the mother. Please cite the exact text and provide your interpretation of it. Authoritative meaning ideally an Apostle, Church Father, Doctor of the Church, or any Pope of your choosing. Most of the early patristic writings are online so it shouldn't be too difficult, if such writings exist.


That doesn't mean, in itself, that abortion is wrong. I think that the church has been wrong about things before. As an Anglican I believe that moral questions should be decided on the basis of the combination of scripture, tradition, and natural reason. One or two of these alone might not make up my mind, but when something stands condemned by scripture, tradition _and_ reason then I can see no way around the fact that it is an evil. Abortion is one of these things.

JonF,

If quickening had already occured when Elizabeth met Mary then John's leaping could have been a coincidence. No it makes more sense to me to assume that the occurrence was notable not just because of the timing but because of John's early stage of development.

Chris replies: "And I'm sure that you'd gladly run over a million of people like me to avoid the death of your wife as well."

Actually I would not. Nor would she. That's because we're not like you and the Repiglicans, I suppose.

"A homo sapiens is nothing more than a member of the species homo sapiens; it's a biological definition. Neonates lack sapience as well."

No shit, Sherlock. Of course "member" is the operative word there, and various human cultures have differed - and continue to differ - as to whether a fetus qualifies. This is why a funeral for a miscarriage is nearly unheard of in this society, and why the would-be parents of said miscarriage are not accorded the same shock and sympathy that the parents of a victim of crib death are. You may not like the distinction, and you may disagree with it, but if you deny it you just look like a Fitz and a fool. (Pardon the redundancy.)

"The difference between us, Moe, is this: I'm willing to grant you what you don't grant me: respect and acknowledgment of your dignity & worth. But then, you lack an ultimate foundation for human dignity & rights anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that premise working itself out in your conduct."

Your "ultimate foundation" says that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus gets tortured eternally, which strikes me as both exceptionally undignified and fucking stupid, but I acknowledge your right to hold such a belief.

"BTW, in a country where my sort is in charge, *every* human being of *every* age would be respected and valued. And we have seen a country where your sort was in charge: the USSR, where atheistic bliss ruled the roost."

When your sort ruled Europe it was called the Dark Ages, and for good reason. And your sort ran the Holocaust, though of course you'll deny it.

I despise communism and consider it to be a secular religion modeled on Christianity - with the same bullshit offer of a future utopia in exchange for a lifetime of servitude. I have no use for authoritarian forms of government no matter what the underlying philosophy is - yours or theirs.

I'm surprised that I have to explain such things so often around here, but then I know how difficult it is for you hierarchical natural lackeys to believe that not everyone is like you.

I just had a couple other thoughts.

All this talk of proportionality strikes me as strangely consequentialist for Catholics and Ross in particular. (And to be clear here, I'm not Catholic, I'm just speaking as an ignorant outsider here.) If we were talking about torture and the "ticking bomb" scenario, I was under the impression that Catholic teaching would oppose torture no matter how big the hypothetical bomb in question would be. Or, at least, you wouldn't be denied communion for refusing to torture in that instance--even though I can imagine a Fitz-like congregation of bomb survivors and widows giving you the stinkeye on the way to the altar. But large numbers alone don't seem able to carry the day.

There's a difference between committing an immoral act and failing to stop an immoral act. So one hypothetical candidate refuses to stop private individuals from getting abortions, the other hypothetical candidate says that he will engage in torture as a matter of state policy. If large numbers alone compel the Catholic to pick the first one, does that mean that large numbers of potential fatalities compel the Catholic to support torture in some instances?

And, more broadly, at what point does it become necessary as a matter of faith to restrict by violent or coercive force the evil deeds of my neighbors? Is it possible to be a Catholic anarchist or pacifist, refusing to engage in any violent or coercive force at all?

"Actually I would not. Nor would she. That's because we're not like you and the Repiglicans, I suppose."

C'mon, Moe. I just got done saying that I acknowledge the dignity of *all* human beings. How can you then say we're different on that? Think before you type!

"Of course "member" is the operative word there, and various human cultures have differed - and continue to differ - as to whether a fetus qualifies."

I could care less what a culture says when the biology (embryology in particular) is conclusive: regardless of how one defines personhood, an individual homo sapiens comes to exist at conception. I know the science contradicts your view, but deal with it.

"Your "ultimate foundation" says that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus gets tortured eternally,"

Nope. It says that it's possible for anyone -- even an atheist -- to go to heaven. But don't let your preconceived notions once again get in the way of a good rant.

"When your sort ruled Europe it was called the Dark Ages, and for good reason. And your sort ran the Holocaust, though of course you'll deny it."

What's my sort, again? Theists? Like the Founding Fathers, you mean. That's right.

Oh, regarding the Dark Ages: who do you think created the university system, Moe? Gasp! The Catholic Church! And take any major scientist from the Renaissance through the Enlightenment... they're pretty much all theists. Who first proposed the Big Bang theory, when it contradicted the dominant model? Lemaitre, a Catholic priest. Who founded genetics? Mendel, a Catholic priest. Want me to continue? *You* might call it the Dark Ages, but that only indicates your biases and ignorance of the history of Western science and scholarship.

"I have no use for authoritarian forms of government no matter what the underlying philosophy is - yours or theirs."

I'm not proposing any authoritarian form of government. But what someone actually says -- as opposed to what *you* think they believe -- never stopped you, right?

Here's the thing, Moe: like it or not, you are created in the image and likeness of God, and that gives you inalienable, intrinsic and infinite value and dignity. That's what provides the intellectual foundation for "human rights" (cf. the history of the concept of "person"). That's why it would be immoral and injust of me to deliberately kill you. What's your rationale, Moe? Social contract? What if someone refuses to sign on the dotted line? What, ultimately, prevents might from making right in your picture of the universe?

Chris,

I'm a Christian but I think that Moe has a point- morality, and 'human rights', needs to be separated from the issue of the existence of God. Identifying goodness and justice with the will of God is true, so far as it goes, but as Plato pointed out, it doesn't really address any 'why' questions. In order for the proposition that God is perfectly good to be non-circular, good has to be defined in a way that doesn't include God- or else not defined at all, which I think is a better idea. Ultimately right and wrong just are, there isn't any further explanation.

To put it another way, if we had in fact been created not by God but by Molech, the abbomination of the Ammonites, then would it be right to follow the commands of Molech?

"It says that it's possible for anyone -- even an atheist -- to go to heaven"

Whoa, atheists go to heaven? Please explain that one.

freddiemac,

It's pretty clear that either a sense of anti-Catholicism or a deep seated political animosity (or some combination of the two) makes it impossible or you to view these topics with any degree of dispassion, but just in the interests of clarity:

On the birth control issue, the link I cited lists a number of early sources in regards to birth control: Clement of Alexandria in 195 AD, Hippolytus of Rome around 255 AD, Augustine in 419 AD, etc. Your claim that the Catholic Church accepted birth control up until the 19th century is not only obviously untrue, but it runs contrary to the actual prejudices that existed in the early and medieval Church, in which if anything people erred towards thinking that any sexual relations which were not specifically intended to beget children were immoral.

In regards to the death penalty -- are you telling me that because we have jails in the US no one has ever been injured or killed by a convict who was released early? It is a matter of opinion whether the existence of the penal system means that the death penalty is never needed in the US. But yes, in general the bishops in this country hold strongly that it capital punishment should be abolished, and you may take it from one who is active in Catholic circles that they are not at all quiet about it. Indeed, I'd say that I've heard priests speak out against the death penalty from the pulpit far more times than I've heard them speak out about abortion. (It's a safe topic as you can bet there are no executions present in the average congregation.)

Before you launch on warning on a topic and cite all sorts of non-authoritative sources -- make an effort to know something about it. Otherwise, resist the urge to make a spectacle of yourself.

Hector,

Please write a 12 page essay, single spaced, with 12 point font on the history of Christianity in relation to sexaul procreation, including full bibliography and any citations to primary source material.

It isn't so shocking to think that the Church has fundamentally changed its views on sinful things. Usury was considered a sin for over a thousand years. Guess what isn't a sin anymore? Usury. If something that was a sin now isn't, isn't is plausible to think that something which is currently a sin wasn't always?

DarwinCatholic,

Are you Freud? I don't understand why you would try to delve into my personal motivations unless it was because you were losing the debate.

In relation to the birth control and abortion issues in the Catholic Church; doctrines of the Church did not state that life began at conception until relatively recently. Sources I cite, like Augustine, relate that souls don't inhabit the body until quickening, hence any abortion before that time isn't murder. That is a change in the Church's position. It seems logical that, in an era of high infant mortality, the Church was abivalent as to what people did to prevent unwanted pregnancies, since pregnancies so rarely resulted in a child to rear. It wasn't until much later that the Church wrote on the sinfulness of contraception and abortion.

I find your tirade on the death penalty to be a feckless drivel. I'm sorry, but I've never heard a priest rally on about the death penalty. The Church is very silent on this issue. I have heard priests talk about abortion, hold protests on the issue, and go on TV about it. But all that is irrelevant. The fecklessness and intellectual dishonesty in your tirade is this: the question DumbQuestion poses still stands. "Why do we never hear about pro death penalty politicians being denied communion?" Is it because the Church is okey dokey with capital punishment in the US? Surely we could just lock up criminals until they die of natural causes rather than execute them. According to the catechism sited above, it is within our power as Americans. Therefore, capital punishment is logically a sin.

Consumatopia,

I don't think the Chaput quote that Ross cites could be taken as meaning that you simply total up the number of lives lost to abortion, see if the other candidate would manage to kill more people, and then vote accordingly. He's attempting to illustrate the degree of importance with which faithful Catholics should take the issue. As the archbishop says, different people of good will will likely come to different conclusions on this.

For me, it's fairly easy, in that I don't think most of Obama's policies would be counter-productive anyway, and when you combine that with his acceptance of a practice I consider morally despicable, it's a pretty easy call. However, I have Catholic friends who believe that Obama's health care or foreign policy positions would be such a huge benefit to the country and/or the world that they are willing to hold their noses in regards to his abortion stance.

I don't think the archbishop means to suggest that there is a mathematically clear solution to the problem -- just that the problem deserves to be taken very, very seriously.

Freddiemac,

Capital punishment was never considered a sin of the same magnitude as abortion, and the recent pronouncements of the last two Popes on the matter are, as far as I know, not dogmatic pronouncements in the same way as the prohibition of abortion. For good reason- there's nothing in scripture or natural reason, and little in church tradition (at least between about 450 AD and 1970) to justify such a stance against capital punishment.

How many Catholic services have you been to? I've been to a fair amount and I've only on a few occasions heard abortion mentioned. You will here much more about our duties to address poverty and social injustice. (Granted these were churches in fairly liberal parts of the country).

As for usury, obviously given my views on economics I think that the church conceded too much to the world on that question. It's worth pointing out though that the prohibition on usury was enforced in an era when money was primarily a means of consumption and exchange rather than a source of capital. The primary source of capital in that era was land, and the Chruch did allow reasonable interest to be collected on land. It's not that the church 'changed their mind' on usury so much as they were bullied into it by the economic and political elites of the day.

freddiemac,

I apologize if you think that I was needlessly psychoanalyzing, and I'll leave anyone else who is reading down this far to judge which of us is actually being more civil and/or "winning" the discussion.

While you are correct that it was not universally held that human life began at conception (because the biological details of human development were disputed) it does not necessarily follow from that that the Church was okay with abortion before that point or that it was okay with contraception.

Contraception was always held to be wrong because it was held to varying degrees (Augustine being on the more extreme end) that procreation was the only moral end of sex. So having sex in a way that intentionally avoided procreation was seen as sinful. (One minority school of thought actually held that contraception was murder, because they believed that the sperm contained a microscopic human, which the woman simply incubated. Thus the Monty Python 'if a sperm is wasted' song.)

Those who held that abortion was not murder prior to quickening didn't hold that it wasn't a sin -- they held that it was the sin of contraception rather than of murder.

Take it from someone who clearly has read a lot more church documents, history, and primary source material then you have: the Catholic Church has always held that both contraception and abortion are sins, one way or another.

As for the capital punishment issue -- the reason why you haven't seen any pro-capital punishment politicians denied communion is because the Church has never held capital punishment to be "intrinsically immoral" (Catholic moral theology technical phrase). It holds capital punishment to be unjust in certain circumstances, and John Paul II was pivotal in arguing that the circumstances in which it is just in the modern world are practically non-existent. However, that practical non-existence was his "prudential judgment (another technical term, I'm afraid) not a doctrinal definition.

Actually, the last time that excommunication (in this case formal rather than unofficial) was used in American politics was when several southern Catholic bishops excommunicated Catholics who refused to integrate Catholic schools and institutions which their bishops had ordered them to integrate.

And now you may have the last word if you would like...

Chris quotes and replies: ""I have no use for authoritarian forms of government no matter what the underlying philosophy is - yours or theirs."

I'm not proposing any authoritarian form of government. But what someone actually says -- as opposed to what *you* think they believe -- never stopped you, right?"

Hey, dickstain - you're the one who said that I would kill a million of your sort to spare my wife, remember? So why indulge in the sort of hypocrisy where you pretend to be above that sort of thing? You're not.

"Oh, regarding the Dark Ages: who do you think created the university system, Moe? Gasp! The Catholic Church! And take any major scientist from the Renaissance through the Enlightenment... they're pretty much all theists. Who first proposed the Big Bang theory, when it contradicted the dominant model? Lemaitre, a Catholic priest. Who founded genetics? Mendel, a Catholic priest. Want me to continue? *You* might call it the Dark Ages, but that only indicates your biases and ignorance of the history of Western science and scholarship."

Really? Were Mendel and Lemaitre alive during what are referred to as the Dark Ages? Of course they weren't. I'd say that makes you the ignorant one.

When the Church really held sway they fucked with Copernicus and Galileo - but you won't mention THEM, because you have your lips firmly attached to the pipe of the always-good-and-right Catholic Church.

"Here's the thing, Moe: like it or not, you are created in the image and likeness of God, and that gives you inalienable, intrinsic and infinite value and dignity. That's what provides the intellectual foundation for "human rights" (cf. the history of the concept of "person"). That's why it would be immoral and injust of me to deliberately kill you. What's your rationale, Moe? Social contract? What if someone refuses to sign on the dotted line? What, ultimately, prevents might from making right in your picture of the universe?"

Are you such an amoral slug that you need a sky fairy to threaten you with hell in order to behave well? Really? Then I pity you, Chris. I'll take the morality of Mark Twain and Kurt Vonnegut over that of you and the enabler of baby-rapists Pope Ratzinger any old day. You would, too, if you weren't a narcissistic coward who thinks the creator of the universe wants him to live forever.

Your universe-view is the VERY DEFINITION of might makes right. Your Hebrew war god orders the murder of tribes right down to the youngest infant and morons like you look at the Bible and say it's all good. Your revised New Testament sky fairy adds in eternal torture and you say it's STILL all good because sucking Christ's blood will still get you into heaven. Spare me. The foundation for your morality is repugnant bullshit and the evidence of 2000 years shows that your fellow believers are no more moral than any other group.

Take a look at Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" - the blueprint for the Holocaust - and tell me how moral it is. Or look at Ratzinger's response to the worldwide child rape conspiracy - which was to urge that it be covered up - and tell me where your moral superiority lies.

freddiemac quotes and writes: ""It says that it's possible for anyone -- even an atheist -- to go to heaven"

Whoa, atheists go to heaven? Please explain that one."

It's a special program started by the Virgin Mary - apparently no believers can, uh, "get her motor running," if you know what I mean. And eternity is a long time.

Freddiemac writes: "I find your tirade on the death penalty to be a feckless drivel. I'm sorry, but I've never heard a priest rally on about the death penalty. The Church is very silent on this issue. I have heard priests talk about abortion, hold protests on the issue, and go on TV about it. But all that is irrelevant. The fecklessness and intellectual dishonesty in your tirade is this: the question DumbQuestion poses still stands. "Why do we never hear about pro death penalty politicians being denied communion?" Is it because the Church is okey dokey with capital punishment in the US? Surely we could just lock up criminals until they die of natural causes rather than execute them. According to the catechism sited above, it is within our power as Americans. Therefore, capital punishment is logically a sin."

There have been some politically active "liberal" priests - the Berrigans come to mind - but they're few and far between since the American Church is very much a corporate enterprise which doesn't want to rock the boat.

Recently the Indiana statute requiring IDs at voting places was used to deny a group of elderly nuns their right to vote. The statute is a purely racist piece of Repiglican trash, and the nuns were caught up in it "accidentally." Have we seen much protest from the Church as a result?

We have like fuck, as they say in Galway.

...something that's absurd is *obviously* opposed to reason...

Plenty of truths which contemporary Americans recognize & accept (e.g. heliocentrism) would have seemed irrational not too long ago, but that doesn't mean that they were *absurd* just because some people thought they were ridiculous.

I think it's important to separate what is "obviously opposed to reason" from what is counterintuitive but empirically verifiable. Now due to the historically contingent nature of the tools available and the socio-political constraints upon what has been considered "acceptable" knowledge, what constitutes "empirically verifiable" has not been static over time. Thus, 1000 years ago evolution, the expansion of the universe, the speed of light, etc. were not just counterintuitive, but were essentially unverifiable due to historical contingencies. One could, therefore, believe things that run counter to these truths and not be in *obvious* opposition to reason because the relevant premises were unavailable at the time.

Empiricism, as a going concern, is quite a different thing now, of course, than it was then and it has vastly increased the territory claimed by the term "absurd". Given the empirically verifiable knowledge that we now have about human reproduction, geology, the chemistry of wine, etc. it is foolish to adhere to most of the tenets of Catholicism, Islam, Pastafarianism or what have you.

I will now explicitly state the implicit premise in the above: it is obviously opposed to reason (i.e. absurd) to deny the empirically verifiable. If you prefer the term "irrational" but agree with this premise then we're definitely into tomayto-tomahto territory. But I'm not going to try to convince anyone who disagrees with this premise that the sky is blue.

Chris replies: "And I'm sure that you'd gladly run over a million of people like me to avoid the death of your wife as well."

Actually I would not. Because my 'wife' is a blow-up doll I ordered from a catalog. I love 'her' to death but, if 'she' ever got run over, I'd just re-order the same model. I have insurance.

I find that not having any genuine human connections makes life a lot easier--you should try it, chuckles.

Quit putting our shit in the street, Moe.

"On a more practical level, There is no (supposed) Federal Constitutional Right that states must practice the death penalty." Fitz

TR: Good point.

"They're not, and they're becoming less so as time goes on, which is a very, very good thing." MLaJ

TR: Because you consider the Catholic religion bad and favor its decline. This is your right. I think biases against religions are sometimes unavoidable. However don't kid yourself what you're saying means something else. Catholicism is a religion, not a social club or a "home." One can debate over undefined or ambiguous elements, but there's really no way to reject the essentials and still be a believer. So you believe there are fewer practicing Catholics as time goes on and that's good.

"Really? Were Mendel and Lemaitre alive during what are referred to as the Dark Ages?" MLaJ

TR: Hmm well how about Alcuin of York, the Venerable Bede, and Herman the Cripple? Ever heard of them? Well others from before the Reformation include Albert Magnus, Robert Grosseteste, Theodoric of Freiberg, and Jean Buridan. Ever heard of them? If not, I can educate you.

"When the Church really held sway they fucked with Copernicus and Galileo" MLaJ

TR: Copernicus was a priest and in life it's not clear he ever suffered for his view.

Although it's true political power tends to attract the corrupt and that was an issue in the Medieval Church. It's also true of the Democratic Party or any other group with power.

"Whoa, atheists go to heaven? Please explain that one." freddiemac

TR: I think the idea is if they have no intent to do evil to God or others they may go to heaven on ignorance.

Although I believed this once, it really doesn't make sense to me anymore. An atheist is pretty much never going to be invincibly ignorant. In addition to that atheists do not want to go to Heaven so sending them there would be violence to their nature. Hence atheists would pretty much have to go to a place without God to be true to their nature. In essence this means all unrepentant atheists go to Hell. (As in a place without God. Hell as a place of eternal fire is the traditional Biblical and Catholic view, but other views are possible as are alternate interpretations of what "eternal fire" means.) So I mean Hell "so-called" not the Hell imagined for serial killers and Hitler or whatever.

"So one hypothetical candidate refuses to stop private individuals from getting abortions, the other hypothetical candidate says that he will engage in torture as a matter of state policy." Consumatopia

TR: What candidate is saying this about torture again? Even Bush didn't say this outright. (And I voted write-in in 2004, partly due to Abu Gharaib)

Re: When your sort ruled Europe it was called the Dark Ages, and for good reason.

No historian takes seriously the term "Dark Ages". The early Middle Ages was a bad time, but religion had nothing to do with it. Back in the 6th century a massive vocanic eruption produced a nuclear winter effect lasting tow years, leading to famine and pestilence over much the world. Europe was especially had hit and took longer to recover. The Church actually assisted the recovery process since its monasteries were cebters of economic life and even of technical innovation. And of course the Church preserved the knowledge of antiquity.

Re: On the birth control issue, the link I cited lists a number of early sources in regards to birth control: Clement of Alexandria in 195 AD, Hippolytus of Rome around 255 AD, Augustine in 419 AD, etc. Your claim that the Catholic Church accepted birth control up until the 19th century is not only obviously untrue

The Church's early opposition to birth control was based on the error or preformationism: the scientific theory that a (soulless) human being already existed within male sperm. Hence the term "semen" which is Latin for "seed"-- a seed already containing a embryonic plant. Thus contraception and even masturbation were tantamount to abortion. In the 19th century a more accurate picture of conception emerged and we know now that sperm is the equivalent of pollen, not of seeds. Most Christian churches (including my own) abandoned rigid opposition to contraception, but Rome was unwilling to do so, and instead came up with the rather incoherent and largely rejected (by it own faithful) doctrine about the "purposes" of sex.

Re: but it runs contrary to the actual prejudices that existed in the early and medieval Church, in which if anything people erred towards thinking that any sexual relations which were not specifically intended to beget children were immoral.

Please cite such notion from the early Church. The ancient and medieval church did venerate celibacy quite highly and there was (and remains) an anti-sex bias, but I'm not aware that anyone in that era concerned themselves with an elaborate teleology of sex, at least not until Aquinas. Indeed, against this you have a few Church Fathers (like John of Damascus) writing things like "the good of marital intimacy lies cheifly in the joy which husband and wife may take in each other."

Re: Contraception was always held to be wrong because it was held to varying degrees (Augustine being on the more extreme end) that procreation was the only moral end of sex.

This is not true. As I noted above contraception was considered wrong because it was thought to end a human life, albeit an "unsouled" one. The teleology of sex approcah is a very modern one (with roots in Aquinas). This approach is not and never was shared by Eastern Christendom, which it would be if it dated back to antiquity.

Re: If quickening had already occured when Elizabeth met Mary then John's leaping could have been a coincidence. No it makes more sense to me to assume that the occurrence was notable not just because of the timing but because of John's early stage of development.

My original reply to this did not post, so let me note quickly that the Feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist is June 24. The Annunication is March 25. Mary's visit to Elizabeth should have occured between those two dates when Elizabeth was more than six months pregnant. Yes, we can't trust those dates, but they do show what the Church thought the chronology should be.

"As I noted above contraception was considered wrong because it was thought to end a human life" Jon F.

TR: Uhh no. Contraception was associated with Onan and wasting seed that could fertilize a woman. It had little to do with a theory of sperm being a person, except maybe as an after the fact Medieval justification.

Unless you can find this theory in the story of Onan, which I don't think you can.

In addition to that atheists do not want to go to Heaven so sending them there would be violence to their nature.

Thomas R, I don't think that's fair to atheists. They are people who have concluded that, on balance, the evidence for the existence of God is unpersuasive. Many would be quite pleased to be proven wrong.

A few commenters above wondered why the Catholic bishops seem to come down harder on pro-abortion politicians than on others. It's worth noting that what's important for American bishops (calling people to account on sexual morality) may not be as important for other bishops. A Filipino bishop recently threatened to deny communion to rice-hoarders:

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/98674/Cotabato-bishop-warns-rice-hoarders-wont-be-given-communion

"I don't think that's fair to atheists." EE

TR: It might've been too sweeping, but I don't think it's unfair.

Many atheists really are sincere in preferring atheism. They don't merely see it as dismal truth, but as a positive one. So they find the idea of heaven unappealing.

This is part of what intrigued me when I read science fiction. These people weren't merely cynics or killjoys they really were happy with atheism. They had made their choice and there was a certain dignity in that. I really meant they go to something like limbo than hell, but limbo is sort of an adjunct of Hell but blissful. (The current Pope doesn't believe it, but I don't think he really condemned or ended it either despite what people think)

Anyway this is a big part of what I find unappealing about "new atheism." They seem to accept atheism as true, but it's an unpleasant dour truth. Rather than being happy humanists saying what great things we may do in some non-theist future, they focus more on how everything is depraved so a good God must not be around. They're like Calvinist atheists or something.

It's worth noting that what's important for American bishops (calling people to account on sexual morality)

Abortion is so central not because it is an issue of sexual morality, but because it is an issue of life and death in a much more direct way than even rice hoarding or the minimum wage or what you will. If you've spent time in the Catholic world, you will find that there are "professional" traditionalists in the pews who spend lots and lots of time and thought on sexual morality, contraception and the like. These folks are not bishops -- who tend to avoid the sexual topics other than abortion (and gay marriage, under duress from rabbit-out-of-hat court decisions) like the plague, for reasons both good and bad.

Even then -- I've certainly heard five times as many homilies about the need to be good to the poor, or to help others with our abundance, as I have about abortion. Probably more than five times -- unless it was a special Mass for the unborn I can't really recall a homily _about_ abortion (and contraception? you must be joking). This is one of the more irritating lies of Michael Moore, that talented filmmaker and all-around bozo -- in some interview he said he was still a practicing Catholic despite always entering church and hearing the priest talk about abortion, contraception, against ordination of women, etc. -- unless Michael is going to St. Mel of Gibson's, I flatly think that's an outright lie.

Hector, even if it cannot be a topic of public policy discussion, everyone has an ultimate ground for their view of reality and their morality, an ultimate answer to the ultimate "why?". I'm not proposing that we need to argue this explicitly in the political sphere -- I'd argue the opposite -- but there still needs to be an awareness that there is *some* metaphysical ground to *everyone's* worldview, even if they are unaware of it.

Now, to your point re: God and Molech, I'd recommend perusing Benedict's now-infamous Regensburg address, because his very point is to show the consequences of the reality that Jesus is Logos, i.e. is Reason itself. I'm certainly not articulating any form of nominalism or voluntarism... again, Regensburg was critiquing exactly the form of thing that you are also criticizing (and with which I am also in agreement, to be clear). My point to Moe wasn't to explicitly make that demonstration, but to quickly move to the conclusion. Without the Logos, there is no meaning and hence no morality. Nietzsche recognized this, as does Derrida.

More broadly (and this isn't directed at you, Hector), the issue remains that a "public morality" is sound only insofar as its intellectual foundation is sound. To appeal to something like "well, you better be nice, because that's what you're supposed to do!" is to avoid the question. And history demonstrates that it's all to easy for a public morality to descend to the abyss without some solid foundational work. Fortunately, not everyone is so intellectually-apathetic.

Incidentally, for any interested observers, my point was never that being created in the image of God was in anyway connected with the fear of damnation, but that it serves as the ground for our innate dignity. Moe, unsurprisingly, missed that point. In addition, the point of using Lemaitre and Mendel as examples was to demonstrate that significant scientific accomplishments have been made by Christians. I didn't think I needed to connect the dots, but some apparently require it: these were the same kind of men who lived during the medieval era, i.e. the "Dark Ages". Others conveniently ignored my point regarding the university system, because it flies in the face of their myths.

"what's important for American bishops (calling people to account on sexual morality) may not be as important for other bishops. A Filipino bishop recently threatened to deny communion to rice-hoarders:"

TR: Abortion might not be an issue for bishops there because it is totally prohibited in the Philippines. I'm not sure if there even are any openly Pro-Choice politicians in that country or if their significant.

"Lemaitre and Mendel as examples was to demonstrate that significant scientific accomplishments have been made by Christians."

I'm a critic of Wikipedia who nevertheless is a Wikipedian. Anyway I started articles on this. If you get a chance check "List of Christian thinkers in science", "Quakers in science", and "List of Jesuit scientists."

The Marquis of Carabas:
Harry Reid is "pro-life". So your description doesn't fit.

Re: Unless you can find this theory in the story of Onan, which I don't think you can.

The Old Testament was little used in the ancient and medieval Church, and most of the usage was either for worship (the liturgical use of the Psalms) or typological allegory pointing to the New Testament (the Burning Bush = Mary, the Ark = the Church etc.). The OT was definitely not used as a morals guide, and those who did so were harshly condemned as Judaizers. So no, the story of Onan had nothing to do with the ban on contraception (that's a later rationalizataion too). And after all, if the story had been so used then its other part, the necessity of marrying one's brother's widow, would also have been church policy, when in fact canon law specifically forbade such marriages (see: Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon).
No, preformationism (despite some challenges) was the received scientific orthodoxy on human gestation for many centuries. It was as accepted as Ptolemaic astronomy, so it's hardly odd that Church Fathers took it for granted in their world view. That's not a criticism of them by the way; I don't expect that 5th century individuals should have access to 20th century science. But we shouldn't be chained to their errors either.

Chris replies: "Incidentally, for any interested observers, my point was never that being created in the image of God was in anyway connected with the fear of damnation, but that it serves as the ground for our innate dignity. Moe, unsurprisingly, missed that point."

I didn't miss it. I dismissed it as meaningless, self-serving bullshit.

Thomas replies: "Many atheists really are sincere in preferring atheism. They don't merely see it as dismal truth, but as a positive one. So they find the idea of heaven unappealing."

Don't be ridiculous, although I know you can't help it. There is nothing - by definition - "unappealing" about the notion of heaven, which is a vague and fanciful place where (supposedly) everyone will be perpetually happy. Pie in the sky when we die.

Meanwhile - and this IS what mainstream Christianity has always taught - the vast majority of the human race will be getting tortured forever. You can spout on about "alternative" notions of hell all you want, but that's a coward's way out of facing up to what your religion has been teaching all these years. The worms under the skin, the thirst that quencheth not, blah blah blah.

Now Thomas and Chris and their ilk may be capable of imagining a future of complete bliss while that sort of incomprehensible agony is being doled out to their fellow beings, but I submit that no decent person, at long last, truly is.

A god that would create a sentient race knowing that most of them would end up in eternal agony would be best described with the word "evil." Good thing the bastard doesn't exist, huh?

Thomas R.,

I was raised as an atheist and most of my family as well as many of my friends are atheist or agnostic. I think that 'invincible ignorance' would be a very good descriptor for them. Yes there are some people who actually don't like the idea of the Christian God and would prefer that He not exist. But I think most people today are atheists simply because they've never given enough thought to the matter or because they don't have enough imagination to conceive of what can't be seen, and of course because of the general materialistic tenor of our age. This is what I would call ignorance, not culpable malice.

Marquis,

Rice hoarding is also a matter of life and death in a country like the Philippines, I would think. Your general point is correct of course. I've attended a fair number of Catholic services and only occasionally heard anything about abortion, and never about contraception. I think homilies about serving the poor and social justice, etc. appear to be much more common.

The lack of clear understanding of Catholic teaching both social and moral is remarkable among most of the responses I have read here. It is truly a tragedy, that to form our opinions we, as a culture, have become so dependent on the ramblings of those who have no idea, rather than taking the time to do even a modicum of serious research. But then, why be surprised? We live in a culture of laziness brought on by our overarching desire for convenience (the 30 second pithy media quote/soundbite) and hyper-indvidualism (I want it my way and it doesn't have to be true, just as long as I believe it.). It is a slippery slope leading to an unpleasant end.

"The lack of clear understanding of Catholic teaching both social and moral is remarkable among most of the responses I have read here. It is truly a tragedy, that to form our opinions we, as a culture, have become so dependent on the ramblings of those who have no idea, rather than taking the time to do even a modicum of serious research."

God yes: Every half-baked canard, trope, evasion & ignorant folly has been trotted out to (unsuccessfully) try and counter the clear & consistent teaching of the Church.

What these posters ignore is that these issues are a clear matter of historical record. Tutored academics in the main concede these points with regularity. They properly reserve their disagreements to matters of substance & not to a fantastical and politically convenient rewriting of history.

The sourcing on these issues is overwhelming. The early patristic writers, the Didache – medieval commentaries and the like present a “paper trail” that serious scholars simply aren’t interested in challenging. Moreover this is secular scholarships consistent understanding of the historical record: the breadth & depth of sources and study on these issues is simply overwhelming.

Equally overwhelming is how obviously politically driven are the contemporary canards presented as a “counterpoint”. Pre 68 people simply didn’t dispute that the Church & Christianity had not consistently apposed – birth control, abortion, usury, what have you. The very eruptions and disputes within mainline & Catholic churches concerning these matters demonstrates this very fact.

johnrider types: "It is truly a tragedy, that to form our opinions we, as a culture, have become so dependent on the ramblings of those who have no idea, rather than taking the time to do even a modicum of serious research."

I know you may think you write well, johnny, but when you're considering the "culture of laziness" you should look at your writing as just another exhibit.

I don't really see the point of arguing that the Catholic church has not always and concistently opposed birth control. One can claim that the Church has been consistently wrong (on that issue, not on some others), which I do. One can also claim, as Fitz does, that they were historically right. But I'm not sure what good it does to distort the historical record.

Other churches, like the Orthodox and like my own, have changed their position on contraception in light of changing social conditions, the need for smaller family sizes, a new understanding of embryology and sexuality, etc. I hope that the Catholic church follows them someday. But in the process of making that argument, I don't find it necessary to distort the historical record and pretend the Catholic church taught something it didn't.

JonF, didn't Aquinas cite the story of Onan in the course of his condemnation of contraception? It's also true of course that contraception and abortion were not that well separated in the premodern world due to the fact that most of the herbal contraceptives (silphium, yam leaves and so forth) are powerful drugs that could also be used as abortifacients later in pregnancy.

Chris replies: "Incidentally, for any interested observers, my point was never that being created in the image of God was in anyway connected with the fear of damnation, but that it serves as the ground for our innate dignity. Moe, unsurprisingly, missed that point."

I didn't miss it. I dismissed it as meaningless, self-serving bullshit.

Actually, you did miss it, because you responded to it with a complete non sequitur with your reference to hell, indicating your lack of comprehension.

Meanwhile - and this IS what mainstream Christianity has always taught - the vast majority of the human race will be getting tortured forever.

What's "mainstream Christianity"? We've been talking about the Catholic Church, and it has never formally taught anything about the human population of Hell. Some very reputable Catholic theologians have even taught that it's *possible* that no man or woman will be in Hell (e.g. Hans Urs von Balthasar, who was named a cardinal by John Paul II).

And our teaching on Hell is that -- as awful as it is -- anyone who goes there goes by their own choice... they'd rather spend eternity apart from God than with Him. In other words, anyone who is damned won't be surprised.

No wonder you reject Christianity, Moe. I would too if it taught what you think it does.

Chris quotes and replies: "Meanwhile - and this IS what mainstream Christianity has always taught - the vast majority of the human race will be getting tortured forever.

What's "mainstream Christianity"? We've been talking about the Catholic Church, and it has never formally taught anything about the human population of Hell. Some very reputable Catholic theologians have even taught that it's *possible* that no man or woman will be in Hell (e.g. Hans Urs von Balthasar, who was named a cardinal by John Paul II).

And our teaching on Hell is that -- as awful as it is -- anyone who goes there goes by their own choice... they'd rather spend eternity apart from God than with Him. In other words, anyone who is damned won't be surprised.

No wonder you reject Christianity, Moe. I would too if it taught what you think it does."

It teaches EXACTLY what I said it does, Chris, despite your painful reference to some clown named Balthasar who most Catholics have never heard of. You may be too young to have ever seen an old-fashioned Catholic school textbook, but see if you can find one. The worms under the skin and the thirst that quencheth not aren't terms I invented, pal. And they weren't taught as figuratives, either.

What does your faith teach you you risk if you don't die in a "state of grace," chuckles?

Moe, if you die outside the state of grace, you've chosen Hell. Absolutely. But NO ONE knows whether or not another person is in a state of grace, because we don't know their intentions or freedom.

And regardless of what Father X or Sister Y may have taught you 40 years ago, the Catholic Church's actual teaching has never said what you claim. Is it ridiculous that some priests would teach otherwise? Of course. But that's a separate issue to the point that Church teaching doesn't say the majority of people *are* in Hell.

Again, shed your preconceptions and try to take an objective look. Open the Catechism of the Council of Trent from the 16th century or today's Catechism of the Catholic Church... you won't find declarations teaching that X percentage of human beings are damned.

It appears that someone woefully misinformed you at some point. Again, I don't blame you for rejecting many of the things you do... so do I.

Chris can't do the math: "Moe, if you die outside the state of grace, you've chosen Hell. Absolutely. But NO ONE knows whether or not another person is in a state of grace, because we don't know their intentions or freedom.

And regardless of what Father X or Sister Y may have taught you 40 years ago, the Catholic Church's actual teaching has never said what you claim. Is it ridiculous that some priests would teach otherwise? Of course. But that's a separate issue to the point that Church teaching doesn't say the majority of people *are* in Hell.

Again, shed your preconceptions and try to take an objective look. Open the Catechism of the Council of Trent from the 16th century or today's Catechism of the Catholic Church... you won't find declarations teaching that X percentage of human beings are damned."

Chris, you're being willfully dense here. Obviously they never gave a percentage. And I'm not reporting on what "some priest" taught me, but on what was in a catechism text.

Sure, it's taught that it's *possible* for a non-Catholic to get into heaven, *somehow*, but it's never presented as much of a *possibility.* If you'll permit yourself a brief moment of honesty about your faith and what it has taught you'll see that my premise is quite correct - if you take the teaching at face value the logical conclusion is that most humans get tortured forever.

Of course there's nothing logical or plausible about it because the "facts" of the faith are pure garbage, but that's another debate.

So what percentage would still leave you feeling that your own perpetual bliss shouldn't be affected? Twenty percent? Fifty? Just trying to get a handle on what sort of perpetual sadism you would find acceptable in your sky fairy.

So, what population of hell would Moe find unbearable?

If hell only contained Hitler and Stalin?

If it contained those plus quite a few murderers? Abusive pimps? Those plus Bush and Cheney?

TMoC asks: "So, what population of hell would Moe find unbearable?

If hell only contained Hitler and Stalin?

If it contained those plus quite a few murderers? Abusive pimps? Those plus Bush and Cheney?"

The answer is zero percent. I think you should have known that by now.

There is no moral calculation that makes perpetual torture justified, and those who think otherwise are wrong.

There's another view among many Jews and some Christians that the souls of those like Hitler and Stalin and Bush and Cheney are simply destroyed (or cease to exist) once they are deemed or become unworthy of "salvation." (It's called annihilationism.) While this, too, may be a grim philosophy, it is not as clearly and despicably sadistic as the mainstream Christian vision of hell is.

I hope that clears things up for the morally-challenged types.

Moe,

Hell is the kingdom of the devil. Blame the devil for the torment that goes on there. Don't blame God.

Re: The answer is zero percent. I think you should have known that by now.

And that is an allowable opinion in traditional Christianity, at least according to the Ecumenical Councils. The Universalist position (that God WILL save all) was condemned as a heresy, but a weaker variation (that God MAY save all) was still allowed and sometime taught by venerable Church Fathers.

Hector: I agree that the RCC always opposee contraception. My point is that its reasons have shifted over time, and the current teleogical teaching was not really present in the ancient Church. Nor was Fundamentalist-style proof-texting from Scripture. As for my own Church, Orthodoxy never really had a formal teaching on contraception. As on many moral issues, the teaching is that each married couple ought pray over the matter and seek the advise of a spiritual elder (perhaps their priest but not necessarily so). More generally the Orthodox Church holds that it is marriage as a whole that must be open to children, not any individual sex act. And I think that emphasis is exactly right: rather than focusing narrowly on sex, it looks at the entire marriage.

Hector says: "Hell is the kingdom of the devil. Blame the devil for the torment that goes on there. Don't blame God. "

Snce we're discussing fiction here, Hector, you should know that I don't blame anyone. But here's the moral calculus. In this work of fiction a god creates a sentient race. While doing so, and before doing so, and after doing so, it realizes what will become of the members of this race. It has also created this debbil thing which it knows will do whatever the debbil does.

Where does the responsibility actually lie? Couldn't this god have created the universe without this debbil, or have disallowed the debbil from fucking with it's so-called "children"?

If I toss a TV out of a window and it hits an old lady and kills her then I'm guilty of negligent homicide. If I see her before I toss the TV I'm in a whole other category of criminal. This is true even if I toss it to a friend who then tosses it on the old lady, if I knew what he was about to do.

Moe, Jon addressed this: it's possible to hope for the salvation of *all* people, i.e. zero percent in Hell.

But you continue to persist in this notion of Hell as if it's something which the damned *wouldn't* choose, and that's just not the case; anyone who is damned sends *themselves* there, because they don't want to be in God's presence for eternity. The sad thing is -- and this is authoritatively taught -- it's precisely the absence of God's affective presence that is the *chief* pain of Hell, not worms or maggots. Again, this is from authoritative church teaching. I'd challenge you to demonstrate your assertions with actual, formal church teaching, not what some priest said or some author wrote.

I'm sorry you were misinformed, but you were.

JonF quotes and replies: "Re: The answer is zero percent. I think you should have known that by now.

And that is an allowable opinion in traditional Christianity, at least according to the Ecumenical Councils. The Universalist position (that God WILL save all) was condemned as a heresy, but a weaker variation (that God MAY save all) was still allowed and sometime taught by venerable Church Fathers."

I suppose they never want to rule out what god MAY do. Judgment Day may involve god turning everyone into rabbits and walking away with a "Happy Eternal Humping, kids," but that probably won't become official church teaching.

The Church has never suggested that there's anything casual about the salvation process, or that it's easy to achieve. Remember the degree of difficulty for a rich man?

I'm often surprised by how steadfastly most Christians will resist speculating about such things. Seriously, why can't I get a single Christian to speculate - be it ever so humbly - about how rare or common salvation might be?

Hector replies: "But you continue to persist in this notion of Hell as if it's something which the damned *wouldn't* choose, and that's just not the case; anyone who is damned sends *themselves* there, because they don't want to be in God's presence for eternity."

You can tell me that as many times as you wish, Hector, but it still seems like bullshit, so you're wasting your time.

"Sends themselves there"? How do they get there - by bus?

"I'm often surprised by how steadfastly most Christians will resist speculating about such things. Seriously, why can't I get a single Christian to speculate - be it ever so humbly - about how rare or common salvation might be?"

Because that would be playing God, pretending to know what only he can know, pretending to know the depth of his mercy or his ultimate will.

All we can know is what he has taught and what his Church has consistently held.

AChristian wusses out: " "I'm often surprised by how steadfastly most Christians will resist speculating about such things. Seriously, why can't I get a single Christian to speculate - be it ever so humbly - about how rare or common salvation might be?"

Because that would be playing God, pretending to know what only he can know, pretending to know the depth of his mercy or his ultimate will."

Ah, bullshit. I'm not looking for you to pretend you know the definitive answer. Just looking for a little speculation based on your observation of the world and your understanding of your faith. It's not like there isn't endless speculation about other aspects of these matters.

I still think it's moral cowardice to be afraid to ask such questions.

Moe,

As you know my views on the devil are fairly heterodox (heretical?) so I'll try not to derail this discussion too much. In brief, I think it is contrary to the nature of God to do that which diminishes His perfection. A God that existed in the absence of a devil would be less perfect than a God that existed in opposition to the devil, since the first God exhibits the property of perfect love for what is good, while the second God possesses the additional property of perfect hatred of what is ultimately evil. Since destroying the devil would mean diminishing God's perfection (as the epitome of perfect love of good and perfect hatred of evil), it would be a contradiction of God's nature for him to eliminate the devil. Therefore, the devil must exist by necessity.

Well... K

Just go to Christ himself..."the way is narrow the path is steep" as for Hell "the Gates are wide open".

"no, the story of Onan had nothing to do with the ban on contraception" Jon F

TR: Except it did. Denying the OT outright was Marcionism and discouraged. Still I guess you have your position

"Don't be ridiculous, although I know you can't help it. There is nothing - by definition -"unappealing" about the notion of heaven"

TR: Well I read different kinds of atheists than you.

There were certainly atheists who saw it as unappealing. Some felt eternal happiness would be dull/flat and that if they were to live forever they'd want to experience the full range of emotions in that time. Others felt that eternity itself is inhuman, makes this life meaningless, and is an unpleasant concept. I've talked with atheists like this.

On hell you do have some merit. The Athanasian Creed stated "They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire." This is traditionally the usage, that the punishment comes from what people do not believe. The descriptions of unbelievers tended to say things about "outer darkness" rather than fire or pain. The Council of Florence indicates some will be punished more than others. The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia indicates that Hell must be punishment and not mere deprivement. That it also must include fire, although the details of what "the fire" means is open to interpretation.

Still our understanding does grow and clarify. At one time educated Christians thought it acceptable, even necessary, that thieves and heretics be executed for moral order. Not just Catholics either as the Orthodox executed some heretics as did the Calvinists and Anglicans. I'll concede though that the Bible seems to indicate that those who have no love for God or their fellow men burn in everlasting fire.

"This is traditionally the usage, that the punishment comes from what people do not believe."

That statement was unclear. What I meant was that punishment came from actions people did rather than what they believed. Disbelief led to living in "darkness" but not so much descriptors of punishment.

AChristian replies: "Well... K

Just go to Christ himself..."the way is narrow the path is steep" as for Hell "the Gates are wide open"."

Exactly - along with the rich man/eye of a needle comment, it's clear that the NT view is that salvation will probably only be achieved by a relative few.

And this is, in fact, what the primary teaching has been in most Christian denominations.

Thanks for responding.

Chris replies: "But you continue to persist in this notion of Hell as if it's something which the damned *wouldn't* choose, and that's just not the case; anyone who is damned sends *themselves* there, because they don't want to be in God's presence for eternity."

You can tell me that as many times as you wish, Hector, but it still seems like bullshit, so you're wasting your time.

No, I don't think I'm wasting my time. You persist in responding... so will I.

"Sends themselves there"? How do they get there - by bus?

Cute. But the fact remains: the Catholic Church's position is that damnation is self-chosen: you want to be apart from God, and He will respect your choice. Again, this may not jive with whatever you were once taught, nor with however that previous teaching has "developed" in your adult life, but that remains what the Church teaches. And it's a lot different than your notion of eternal torment imposed by some arbitrary, authoritarian sky god. Sadly, I wouldn't be shocked if some form of that was what you were taught, but that just indicates a failure in teaching; it doesn't reflect the authentic Catholic position.

Chris again: "But the fact remains: the Catholic Church's position is that damnation is self-chosen: you want to be apart from God, and He will respect your choice. Again, this may not jive with whatever you were once taught, nor with however that previous teaching has "developed" in your adult life, but that remains what the Church teaches. And it's a lot different than your notion of eternal torment imposed by some arbitrary, authoritarian sky god. Sadly, I wouldn't be shocked if some form of that was what you were taught, but that just indicates a failure in teaching; it doesn't reflect the authentic Catholic position."

While I'm aware of what the Church's "authentic" position is, I consider it to be nonsensical. The Church wants to absolve an omnipotent god of responsibility for the basic eternal dichotomy in the universe it supposedly created. The "choice" you talk about is akin to Sophie's Choice. You can go to hell, or you can view a god responsible for the possibility of eternal torture as "good."

That's the choice I reject as absurd and revolting. A being that created such a choice would be the very opposite of good.

What your argument reminds me of is the yahoo "he stole a car so he deserved to get raped in prison" sort of gibberish that's so prevalent. There are some punishments that are simply unrelated to the "crime" and totally disproportionate. I'm sorry that your god-thingy was created before that advance in morality took place.

Moe, the alternative to the possibility of Hell is the lack of freedom. The only way for there to be no possibility of damnation is for God to force everyone to love Him, which is impossible... it's a contradiction in terms. You cannot force someone to love you.

If God is going to respect our freedom, Hell must be a possibility.

I don't believe God exists. But if he does exist, and I end up going to hell for not believing in him, I'll work overtime for Satan to help him overthrow God. Because any God that permits the existence of an eternity of torture because it makes him more "perfect" is a God that deserves... well, death would be too good for "Him."

I'd rather be a Satanist than a Christian. At least Satanists can be evil while having good consciences, which is way more fun than being good with a bad conscience.

Chris replies: "Moe, the alternative to the possibility of Hell is the lack of freedom. The only way for there to be no possibility of damnation is for God to force everyone to love Him, which is impossible... it's a contradiction in terms. You cannot force someone to love you.

If God is going to respect our freedom, Hell must be a possibility."

That's not just stupid, it's creepy. Freedom = eternal torture? Why not just say "Arbeit Macht Frei"?

Above I mentioned the annihilationist alternative to eternal torture, but of course you haven't bothered to respond to that - so I find this "only way for no possibility of damnation crap to be exceedingly dishonest. And it's not like that's the only other possibility that's out there, chuckles, if you bothered to think about it.

What you actually mean is that your beliefs are set in stone and you refuse acknowledge other possibilities. You have the right to do that, but it's lazy and sloppy and stupid.

Here's an idea - your sky fairy tells most non-Jesoids, "Fine, you don't love me, but instead of doing what all of my idiot fans want me to do I won't be sending you to hell to be fricaseed and boned up the ass by debbils all day long. Instead I'll send you to New England. It aint heaven, but you'll like the sports teams and the universities and the lack of fundies."

The Bushes and the Cheneys get sent to Houston to choke on the pollution and root for the Texans and the Astros and the Rockets and Rush and Hannity and Savage on the radio all day.

How do you like those apples?

Boy, you're fixated on hell = eternal torture. Someone sure screwed you up. Would hell suck if I went there? Of course! But heaven would suck even more! Why? Because if I went to hell, that means that I lived life rejecting God definitively, and it would be worse for me to be in His presence forever than to be without Him forever, as bad as that also is (again, the chief pain of hell isn't worms or maggots, but the affective absence of God).

That, and you apparently paid zero attention to the point: God won't compel us to love Him.

You refer to annihilation (I didn't see it b/c you didn't address me, and I've just been skimming to responses to me). Why wouldn't God annihilate you instead of letting you damn yourself? Because the universe is better because you exist; you add -- permanently -- to the goodness & beauty of the universe, and destroying you would be removing something ontologically (though not morally) good from existence. Even if you damned yourself, the universe would be better with you in it, because of your inherent goodness. Obviously God would prefer to that you not do so, but again... He will always respect our freedom.

Keep rejecting the things you do... so do I.

"your sky fairy tells most non-Jesoids" MLaJ

TR: Unless you go to some Medieval tracts Hell was for people with mortal sins. Non-believers without immortal sins didn't necessarily go to Hell. Many Orthodox believed that they could even go to Heaven as John the Baptist would appear to them on death to inform them. Some Catholics believed in similar ideas.

If Hell for crooked Republicans, Nazis, and rapists seems disproportionate to you that's a reasonable discussion. However the "non-Jesoid" thing is just claptrap that ended up in your mind somehow.

Chris again: "Boy, you're fixated on hell = eternal torture. Someone sure screwed you up. Would hell suck if I went there? Of course! But heaven would suck even more! Why? Because if I went to hell, that means that I lived life rejecting God definitively, and it would be worse for me to be in His presence forever than to be without Him forever, as bad as that also is (again, the chief pain of hell isn't worms or maggots, but the affective absence of God).

That, and you apparently paid zero attention to the point: God won't compel us to love Him."

Rigghhhht! The notion of hell isn't a threat or coercive. It's a REWARD!

Fuck, in your own way, you're dumber than Fitz and Terry Ann squared!

If Spider-man ruled the universe and I didn't believe in Spider-man, would he send me to hell? Nah - because Spidey isn't a malignant fucking desert god created by harsh desert primitives. Spidey would just web me up for an hour and tell me to smarten up.

But your sky fairy? Nah, that sort of punishment wouldn't suffice. Nothing but eternal torture will do!

Chris, you may be a nice guy in your everyday life, but you're essentially insane.

"You refer to annihilation (I didn't see it b/c you didn't address me, and I've just been skimming to responses to me). Why wouldn't God annihilate you instead of letting you damn yourself? Because the universe is better because you exist; you add -- permanently -- to the goodness & beauty of the universe, and destroying you would be removing something ontologically (though not morally) good from existence. Even if you damned yourself, the universe would be better with you in it, because of your inherent goodness."

So your god sends people who are essentially good into eternal torture? Really? And the same behavior that leads to eternal torture can't lead to annihilation? That makes sense to you?

You'd prefer eternal torture to nonexistence?

Thomas R quotes and writes: ""your sky fairy tells most non-Jesoids" MLaJ

TR: Unless you go to some Medieval tracts Hell was for people with mortal sins. Non-believers without immortal sins didn't necessarily go to Hell. Many Orthodox believed that they could even go to Heaven as John the Baptist would appear to them on death to inform them. Some Catholics believed in similar ideas.

If Hell for crooked Republicans, Nazis, and rapists seems disproportionate to you that's a reasonable discussion. However the "non-Jesoid" thing is just claptrap that ended up in your mind somehow. "

Tommy, this is stupid stuff even by your standards. From Paul, in Galatians: ""Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Now if you can tell me just how many Jesoids - or non-Jesoids - never commit any of these "mortal sins," and are thus granted entry into heaven even if they're not "right with Jeezass," I'd appreciate it.

Your religious beliefs are almost as retarded as your political ones.

And all of this "some Catholics" and "some Orthodox" believed this or that doesn't mean shit and you know it. Some Catholics think god punished Cain by turning him into a black man. I suppose you find that compelling evidence on some level, too?

MoeLarryAndJesus

TR: Why is it atheists, sometimes agnostics or deists too, are more Biblically literalist than any Christian in all history?

One study indicated believers see patterns that aren't there while skeptics have a tendency not to see patterns that are there. This was linked to levels of dopamine. Possibly the skeptic/atheist mind therefore has to cling to a narrow literalist view of reality and religious literature because of improper brain chemistry.

Which is a long way of saying you're a stupid twirp and hopefully I'll never waste time with you again.

If Spider-man ruled the universe and I didn't believe in Spider-man, would he send me to hell?

Who said atheists can't go to Heaven? I already asserted that the opposite is true. But you continue to persist in thinking that I believe things I don't.

Chris, you may be a nice guy in your everyday life, but you're essentially insane.

Well, I guess I appreciate your efforts to sanitize me. :-)

So your god sends people who are essentially good into eternal torture? Really?

For like the fifth time, that's not what I believe, Moe. Stop projecting for a second and listen: I don't believe that God arbitrarily sends people to Hell... the Catholic position is that anyone who is damned chooses it themselves. I know you don't believe any of this, but at least do me the favor of arguing against *my* position instead of against someone else's in our little convo here.

Catechism of the Catholic Church on Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

So it does seem eternal fire and punishment is still part of Hell. However the section on Baptism states

"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved."