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Mission Impossible?

30 Jun 2008 03:35 pm

Noam Scheiber on the GOP and the Sam's Club agenda:

There may some day be a political party oriented toward working class voters whose ideological stance resembles Sam's Club-ism. But I don't think that party's going to be the GOP. (Nor will it be the Democratic Party--I think one or both of the major parties would have to die off and be replaced by this future party.)The people who fund and run the GOP are simply too committed to the idea of cutting taxes for affluent people and reducing government spending--basically the opposite of what Ross and Reihan propose. In fact, even saying the GOP estabilshment is "committed" to these things understates the grip of economic libertarianism over the party. It suggests a worldview that's the product of some reflection, when in fact the economic libertarianism of big GOP donors is mostly an expression of their self-interest--i.e., they want to keep their own taxes low. The idea that a party structured this way would embrace policies directly at odds with this mission is really tough to imagine. Which is why, for example, Mike Huckabee's candidacy was doomed the second he started attacking the "Wall Street-Washington axis."

Having said all that, these guys are right: The GOP is absolutely screwed. Even though the money comes from the same place it has for decades, the votes increasingly come from socially-conservative working-class people. At some point something's got to give. I just think it's going to be the GOP--which will basically cease to exist--rather than the moneymen and powerbrokers.

This strikes me as wildly overstated. Does the GOP have powerful interest groups that would resist some of the reforms we’re talking about? Sure. Is it hard to win the Republican primary while campaigning explicitly - and clumsily - against some of those interest groups? Sure again (though Huckabee did win quite a few primaries, and his eventual loss had at least as much to do with his failure to break out among non-evangelical voters as with the populist tack he took). Is the GOP going to morph into a soak-the-rich, pro-regulation party? Of course not - and I wouldn't be happy if it did! But the idea that every move the GOP makes is choreographed by a bunch of moneymen who are only interested in keeping their own taxes low by whatever means necessary doesn't square with reality. For one thing, the GOP's big-money donors don't all want the same thing: Some of them want low income taxes, some of them want low corporate taxes, some of them (though not all that many, I suspect) want government programs slashed, some of them want deregulation, some of them want regulation, some of them want pro-business judges appointed, some of them want subsidies for their industries, etc. etc. (And there are a few big-money donors who are in it for the social issues, believe it or not.) Which means, in turn, that there are lots of ways that the GOP can remain a pro-business party without all its money drying up: A right-of-center party that appoints conservative judges, opposes onerous regulations, and tries to keep taxes on investment low - all of which Reihan and I favor - is going to look pretty appealing to a lot of its current moneymen even if it's also interested in pro-family tax reform or education reform or any other issue that appeals more to the party's voters than to its donors. (And all of this is leaving aside the extent to which the Obama/Paul model of internet fundraising may make the old "big donor" approach to funding campaigns obsolete anyway.)

Moreover, even in its current incarnation GOP politicians are constantly pushing ideas that have little or nothing to do with "cutting taxes for affluent people and reducing government spending." During the Bush years, a Republican President was responsible for (among other things) No Child Left Behind, a new prescription drugs entitlement, a sweeping program to fight AIDS in Africa, and new (though not particularly substantial) investments in faith-based anti-poverty programs. None of these had much to do with a self-interested economic libertarianism, and some of them, in fact, had nothing much to do with political self-interest either. I'm not endorsing all of these initiatives by any means, and indeed I think "compassionate conservatism" represents a dead end for would-be right-of-center reformers. I'm just suggesting that it's hard to see how this record squares with the Scheiber vision of what the GOP can and cannot do. (And yes, of course, Medicare Part D included giveaways for GOP-leaning interests, but that doesn't prove that Republican donors won't accept anything except tax cuts and government slashing; it just proves that if a Sam's Club agenda ever gets enacted, there will have to be some compromises along the way. And that's true of any agenda you care to name: It's just how politics works.)

I don't want to be Pollyannish on this point: I'm much less confident than, say, David Brooks that the vision Reihan and I have sketched out actually represents the future of the GOP. There are all sorts of roadblocks, institutional and otherwise, to sort of change we're interested in, and our ideas may not survive whatever contact with political reality they earn. But ultimately, a more working-class friendly GOP is no harder to imagine than was, say, the neoliberalism of Bill Clinton, which also required breaking with party orthodoxies and taking on entrenched interests. It may not happen, but it's a long way from being impossible.

Comments (36)

After peaking briefly at #38, the book is now down to #149 on Amazon and the used/remaindered copies are already up over 20 for as little as $13. This is not the profile of a book that's capturing the imagination of a big market.

But hey, the people buying it also bought Jonah's dung-filled fistula, so maybe word of mouth will get out among, uh, people of taste and distinction.

Trying to hide bullshit in long incoherent paragraphs doesn't really work.

More celebrity gossip! You've found your voice!

If only you'd kept that chapter on the heavy frottage session you had with buckley on his yacht.

Did you use five dollar words or just call you bitch?

I apologise unreservedly for the previous post.

It should have read

Did he use five dollar words.

I regret deeply any offence caused.

I apologise unreservedly for the previous post.

It should have read

Did he use five dollar words.

I regret deeply any offence caused.

I must say that I am skeptical that the GOP will shift towards a Grand New Party. The point you make is indeed valid, although it points to the fact that there is a good possibility that there may someday be a Sam's Club-ist type of president who can push through the types of reforms you talk about, although the prospects of shifting the entire party are slim to none. Clinton may have been successful in pushing through his "neoliberal" reforms, but you do not see the Democratic Party as a whole continuing to embrace welfare reform and free trade.

There is not way that the conservative party can ever outpander the liberal party. As long as the Democratic Party has access to the treasury, they can always give more goodies to the middle class. The only thing required is to ignore the effects of high taxes on the economy.

Also, the blue collar white demographic is growing smaller. There is no place in a country with open borders and unlimited immigration for blue collar whites. For whites, they have to climb up economically or become targets.

How can easy conservative party survive while the country becomes majority hispanic and black?

Dear American Voters, reporters, media. professionals, political
parties, and presidential Nominees,
Subject: Presidential Temperament

Please talk about and "Compare And Contrast" the " Presidential
Temperament" of our Presidential presumptive nominees. I will also
request and plead to the nominees themselves [ Hon. Senator McCain
and Obama ].
Our nation has been applying this yard and stick tor the appointments
and confirmation process of our Supreme Court Justices nominees.
Our Greatgrand Nation Foundations are as under:
Family, friends, fellows, faith, funds, fun, with fairness & freedom
And without fear, favor, and failure.
It will be disgrace and shameful if the nominees and media will not
look into this critical and crucial aspect under current challenging
times and circumstances within our country and all around the Globe.

America wake up and the discuss the " Presidential Temperament" of
our presumptive presidential nominee's [ Hon. Senator McCain and
Obama].

Yours sincerely,
COL. A.M.Khajawall [Ret].
Disabled American Veteran
Forensic psychiatrist, Las Vegas, Nevada.

PS: Key still is the Presidential Temperament?

Bill Clinton's centerism came after a long period of Republican dominance at the presidential level, and he was able to maintain it only because the Republicans took control of Congress in 1994.
I can't imagine the Republicans adopting a Sam's Club Republican strategy until after a similar series of defeats. This is not to say it's a bad idea, and if it were coupled with a Republican return to foreign policy realism the Republicans might again be the party of choice for middle of the road voters. But that's a long way off.

"But the idea that every move the GOP makes is choreographed by a bunch of moneymen who are only interested in keeping their own taxes low by whatever means necessary doesn't square with reality. For one thing, the GOP's big-money donors don't all want the same thing: Some of them want low income taxes, some of them want low corporate taxes, some of them (though not all that many, I suspect) want government programs slashed, some of them want deregulation, some of them want regulation, some of them want pro-business judges appointed, some of them want subsidies for their industries, etc. etc."

Nobody is arguing that the GOP is run only by the cabal of Mr. Burns, the idiot Texan oil man, Count Chocula and Ralph Nader shown on "The Simpsons." However, they do make up the money base of the GOP. If the GOP re-orients itself as the party of the white working class for real, much of that party would dry up or be passed more to the Democrats and Libertarians because taxes would have to be raised in order to fund more social spending. The budget deficit is already out of control under the GOP as it is without the GOP focusing on more social programs.

In addition, while some businesses want more regulations and some want less, when was the last time businesses lobbied for higher taxes, either higher personal income or corporate taxes? Putting those positions in a list of proposals businesses might want like regulations is just dishonest and an attempt to duck the question.

If the GOP orients itself thus, the New Economy type of people donating online to Obama are going to probably start donating primarily to the Democrats for years. The GOP will also have to become wedded more to the type of anti-Latino, anti-black, anti-Muslim (often anti-Asian) and homophobic sentiments that white working class social conservatives hold, thus driving off new and growing demographic groups. An attempt to re-orient a party to a shrinking demographic is doomed to failure.

For the GOP to have future salience, they have only two real paths: fear (white nationalism, including much of the anti-Muslim and anti-Latino pandering that has come out of the GOP as of late) or embracing new immigrants. The GOP can decide to become the party that Latinos, Asians and Middle Easterners join as they integrate and become wealthier, but this means embracing people that might not want that new social spending (especially for white working class people) that Ross and Reihan propose. This means that the GOP would have to make the case to the nouveau riche and the rich in general that rich Scandinavians have it right: they don't object to new spending and high welfare spending because they benefit as well through economic feedback effects (high educational spending -> a stronger economy, etc.). However, making that case would likely alienate the GOP money base in the process and probably fail to convince a lot of nouveau riche as well.

"and some of them, in fact, had nothing much to do with political self-interest either."

?

REality Man,

The Republicans have learned that the cost of attracting each additional Hispanic, Asian, or other minority vote is the loss of several white voters.

Also, Hispanics are very slow into moving into the middle class and Asians are great of taking advantage of the having an invasive government. Look at how Asian owned business use family members to avoid payroll taxes and avoid bank in order to cheat on taxes.

What is unusual is that the Democratic Party gets the vast majority of both the Jewish vote and the Muslim vote. Any party that can pull that off is going to be the one, dominate party.

Even if it's a bit overstated, it's a fair point that Scheiber's making. In fact, it's one that many of us having been point out for years now...the libertarianish wing of the GOP and the social cons have some pretty serious unreconciled differences, and these differences could cause problems for the Republican long past November. I agree with Ross, though, that the money issue isn't of itself that big a deal, except maybe insofar as it's a general indicator of enthusiasm and a predictor (as opposed to a driver) of turnout.

I guess my point would be that none of the ideas (that I've heard of; I've not read the book) offered in Grand New Party really promises to reconcile those differences. Libertarians are sort of reeling right now from the ongoing disaster that is the Bush presidency; ideas like "let's make the tax code still more progressive" isn't the way to bring us back in the big tent. I guess Ross and Reihan think they can get by over the long term without us. Well, we'll see.

Your "Grand New Party" thesis works well, Ross, up to the point where the party is apparently required to keep dragging the social conservatives along with homophobia, fear and pandering.

Until it abandons the idea that we need to amend the U.S. Constitution to keep two loving individuals from marrying each other, or the idea that public schools should teach religion in the guise of "intelligent design," or the idea that abstinence-only sex-ed works, or that stem-cell research is immoral... there's a whole laundry list of broken Republican "ideas" that are long-term losers, both for the country and in electoral terms.

The GOP is doomed to marginalization among young voters and the New Economy folks as long as the Christian right controls its platform.

The Grand New Party idea is quite intriguing, although I doubt the GOP can change that much. It makes me ponder the long-term future of politics: the Democrats hold power for a decade... the Democrats become arrogant and cocky... the GOP hones its message to Sam's Club voters and slowly becomes the "GNP"... the GNP forms a winning coalition and gains overall control of the country (plus or minus a few bad years)... the GNP continues its slide towards economic liberalism... the Democrats decide to re-brand their image... they draw a new battle line with the GNP and decide that maybe free trade isn't so bad and there is lots of benefit in it... alas, since this is 30 years down the line, the old hard-liners that funded the old system are no longer in control and the battlefield has changed.
I know, I know... not likely to happen, but it never hurts to ponder....

Tony,

Given the demographic changes in the U.S., the DEmocratic Party will soon be immune to cockiness or even being voted out of office due to huge failures. Do you really think that a political party that will keep reelecting Marion Barry and Kwame Kilpatrick really cares about performance?

Travis Mason-Bushman said in an earlier post:

"The GOP is doomed to marginalization among young voters and the New Economy folks as long as the Christian right controls its platform."

Reagan thought the Christian right platform was vital. This quote is the last three paragraphs of an essay he wrote, Abortion and the Conscience of a Nation in 1983.

I have often said we need to join in prayer to bring protection to the unborn. Prayer and action are needed to uphold the sanctity of human life. I believe it will not be possible to accomplish our work, the work of saving lives, "without being a soul of prayer." The famous British Member of Parliament, William Wilberforce, prayed with his small group of influential friends, the "Clapham Sect," for decades to see an end to slavery in the British empire. Wilberforce led that struggle in Parliament, unflaggingly, because he believed in the sanctity of human life. He saw the fulfillment of his impossible dream when Parliament outlawed slavery just before his death.
Let his faith and perseverance be our guide. We will never recognize the true value of our own lives until we affirm the value in the life of others, a value of which Malcolm Muggeridge says:. . . however low it flickers or fiercely burns, it is still a Divine flame which no man dare presume to put out, be his motives ever so humane and enlightened."
Abraham Lincoln recognized that we could not survive as a free land when some men could decide that others were not fit to be free and should therefore be slaves. Likewise, we cannot survive as a free nation when some men decide that others are not fit to live and should be abandoned to abortion or infanticide. My Administration is dedicated to the preservation of America as a free land, and there is no cause more important for preserving that freedom than affirming the transcendent right to life of all human beings, the right without which no other rights have any meaning.

So, what do you think of Reihan Salam, MLaJ?

The phrase 'Sam's Club Republicans' is being used as a synonym for 'working class Republicans'. This in itself is proof that our host and his co-author have never shopped at Sam's Club. As I pointed out in the comments on the previous "read-my-book-PLEASE" thread, Sam's Club customers are already the Repub demographic. They are married, college educated, home-owners who make more than $50 K. More than 40% list themselves as 'Professionals'.

This is not nit-picking. If the Ivy League, Think Tank dwelling, self-proclaimed working-class heroes Salaam and Douthat cannot say 'WalMart Repubs' (because THAT is where the working class shops) what does that mean for the future success of their amazing, new, gee whiz, never-thought-of-before changes that history demands of the Repubs?

Bush actually did the 'Sam's Club' business. As our host points out he passed the Medicare-Part D so granny can get her meds at taxpayer expense. The NCLB business helps the upward-mobile keep track of their children's school. The 'Faith-based' initiative was s'posed to be a big deal to the Sam's Club demographic.

Here's the important thing: None of it worked. The middle-brow suburbanites either gave up on the Bush Repubs and won't vote--or they are offended by so much other stuff that the Bush Brand has come to represent that they'll never ever vote for anything like them again.

Quietus asks: "So, what do you think of Reihan Salam, MLaJ?"

I haven't read much by him. My preliminary impression is that he's less of a GOP pawn than the Rosses and Jonahs of the world are, but I could be wrong.

He seems fairly entertaining based on his blog on American Scene but otherwise fairly low-key to me, so I was wondering if anyone had an impression of him, if at all. Maybe he's Teller to Ross's Penn.

Reihan Salam has become my favorite American conservative writer these days and is probably the most dynamic and hardest to pin down conservative thinker today, which makes much of his co-thesis in his and Ross's new book disappointing.

"Reagan thought the Christian right platform was vital. This quote is the last three paragraphs of an essay he wrote, Abortion and the Conscience of a Nation in 1983."

Telling us what Reagan thought was moral before a lot of new voters were even born doesn't really tell us a lot about how the GOP can remain relevant in the future. This is especially true if McCain does somehow win in November and appoints anti-choice judges to the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade. The backlash alone would doom the GOP among young women of all races, classes and creeds for a generation while pissing off a majority of women overall and a whole lot of men. Even if such a backlash did not appear, the loss of abortion issue salience would remove a major reason for evangelicals to support the GOP.

Reality Man writes and quotes: "Reihan Salam has become my favorite American conservative writer these days and is probably the most dynamic and hardest to pin down conservative thinker today, which makes much of his co-thesis in his and Ross's new book disappointing.

"Reagan thought the Christian right platform was vital. This quote is the last three paragraphs of an essay he wrote, Abortion and the Conscience of a Nation in 1983.""

I like how they're reporting the claim that Saint Reagan "wrote" that essay. If Ronnie actually wrote that essay himself then Smurfs really exist.

"I like how they're reporting the claim that Saint Reagan "wrote" that essay. If Ronnie actually wrote that essay himself then Smurfs really exist.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | July 1, 2008 2:51 AM"

You're telling me Smurfette doesn't exist? NOOOOOOO!

REality Man,

Young people are, in general, more pro-life than their elders, and women tend to be pro-life than men. So your argument appears to be very largely BS. Reagan was a knave of course, and GW Bush is a fool, but they were correct about the issue of abortion. Even Stalin was right about a few things as well, most notably the evil of Nazism.

You may be right that 'alot of men' would be pissed off if abortion were outlawed. Presumably they would find it harder to indulge their taste for promiscuous f---ing if the girl knows that she can't just 'get rid of it' if she happen to get knocked up. Promiscuous casual sex is of course much more popular among guys than among women, so it's not surprising that so is abortion.

"Young people are, in general, more pro-life than their elders, and women tend to be pro-life than men. So your argument appears to be very largely BS."

The differences among generations are only marginally different from older generations from the numbers I've seen. Polling in an environment that has legal abortion also don't tell us much useful about what would happen if abortion was outlawed. Secondly, the polling I've seen has consistently shown women being more pro-choice than men. Considering how outlawed abortion would mean more women dying from back-alley abortions that does not occur in significant numbers today, we have no real way to test what the backlash would look like.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortion_poll030122.html

"Indeed, as usual, men and women support legal abortion in roughly equal numbers: 54 percent of men, and 58 percent of women, say it should be legal in all or most cases. In the various conditions tested, moreover, men and women express virtually identical views...

Younger, better-educated Americans and people who profess no religion are more likely to support legal abortion. Catholics are somewhat more supportive than Protestants while opposition is highest among evangelical white Protestants."

Not only do you see young people still supporting abortion rights, you see a cultural group that is pretty much spent politically - evangelical white Protestants - as the main anti-abortion group. While some immigrants will come to this country anti-choice, as their children integrate into American society and pick up its cultural norms, they will tend to become more socially liberal.

In addition, not only do women here appear more pro-choice than men on most issues (though often within the margin of error), only on partial-birth and late term abortions do we see men much more supportive than women outside the margin of error.

Also, saying that men support personal freedom for women just because they like to be promiscuous is just insulting.

Reality Man,

From a CBS/NYT poll in 2003:

Gender, age and abortion
There are no major differences between mens' and womens' stands on the issue. 40% of men believe abortion should be generally available, and 37% of women think it should be. 20% of men think it should not be permitted, and slightly more women, 24%, agree.

More women than men are pro-choice, but also more women than men are pro-life. Women tend to be less likely than men to occupy the 'muchy middle' on abortion. Also, while evangelical Protestants tend to be highly pro-life, they do not furnish the bulk of pro-life leadership. Pro-life leaders tend to be Catholics because that church has a greater tradition of education, intellectual reasoning and political leadership than the Baptists or Methodists.

I don't know where you live but if you think that immigrants and their children tend to be socially liberal, you clearly have not seen the Korean, Brazilian or Salvadoran Pentecostal churches that are common in cities like Boston or New York. Indeed, many Asian and Latino immigrants are extremely devout Protestant or Catholic Christians.

Re: Also, saying that men support personal freedom for women just because they like to be promiscuous is just insulting.

No more so than your incoherent babblings that pro-life people oppose abortion because they want to oppress women, or similar such BS. I will respond to stupidity with stupidity, extremism with extremism, and insult with insult.

MITT PHONEY is the worst pick mccain can make. he will surely lose if he picks him. Mitt brings nothing to the table and is far a conservative in every way. the company bain that he founded was just trying to procure a backdoor under the table deal with the goverment that would severly compromise our security. He is no economic genius, look at the economy of Mass..Is is going bankrupt with that hillary style mandated health care coverage, i can see a swift boat comming now of people that had to leave the city b/c they could not afford the fees that mr FEE FEE increased... Mike Huckabee is the only sound choice that can be made here.. If the repubs want to even have a shot at keeping the white house they had beeter pull huckabee out from under that bus they thru him under and put him on the ticket. As a african american, I will not be voting for obamanation, and as a true evangelical conservative, if MITT PHONEY is on the tick, i will not be voting at all... Mike Huckabee has more experience, victories under his belt than romney and just b/c he is not a millionaire does not make it ok to chose someone based on who they want... I feel like the repubs are throwing me under the bus as if i do not count or they know whats best for me...They can play that game if they want to and try to force romney down our throats if they want to, then they had better get ready to call President Obamanation, cause i really am not tooo happy voting for mccain, but if huckabee is on the ticket then i could at least stomach it. But with Romney, to liberals that have a history of pushing policies that moon conservative principles in every way, i will not be willing to waste my time... Obamanation already has the upper hand and is energizing his base meanwhile mccain is just assuming that his will be in tack...remember that assumptions is the mother of all f_ckups!

Hector, countering a poll from 2008 with a poll from 2003 (where you don't even provide a link) just shows you don't understand polling.

"I don't know where you live but if you think that immigrants and their children tend to be socially liberal, you clearly have not seen the Korean, Brazilian or Salvadoran Pentecostal churches that are common in cities like Boston or New York. Indeed, many Asian and Latino immigrants are extremely devout Protestant or Catholic Christians."

Considering how I am a minority from Boston whose mom is an immigrant, I actually know quite a bit about this stuff. Did I say that the children of immigrants are all socially liberal? No, I say that over time they integrate into a more socially liberal society. In addition, minority Christian churches aren't the best sample to hold up as a representation of all minorities because this is an explicitly self-selecting group. The plural of anecdote isn't data.

"More women than men are pro-choice, but also more women than men are pro-life. Women tend to be less likely than men to occupy the 'muchy middle' on abortion. Also, while evangelical Protestants tend to be highly pro-life, they do not furnish the bulk of pro-life leadership. Pro-life leaders tend to be Catholics because that church has a greater tradition of education, intellectual reasoning and political leadership than the Baptists or Methodists."

Congratulations, you've just proven there are more women than men in America and that the Catholic Church is older than Baptism and Methodism. In addition, just because many anti-abortion leaders are Catholic doesn't mean much when Catholics are more likely to be pro-choice than Protestants. Getting the support of evangelical Protestant leaders like Dobson didn't help Romney win the GOP nomination, which shows the limited traction conservative Christian leaders have. The Vatican has even less pull over American Catholics over covering up the serial raping of American Catholic children.

"No more so than your incoherent babblings that pro-life people oppose abortion because they want to oppress women, or similar such BS. I will respond to stupidity with stupidity, extremism with extremism, and insult with insult.

Posted by Hector | July 1, 2008 10:27 AM"

Whether or not that is the intent, the net effect of outlawing abortion is the oppression of women. There are reasons beyond income and infrastructure that women's lives tend to be better in countries with legal abortion than countries without it. Nobody looks to El Salvador as a paragon of female empowerment. Deal with it.

Reality Man,

It doesn't matter what American Catholics think. The Church is not a democracy, thank God, and is not answerable to the American people. Its teaching on abortion will never change- not now, not in a hundred years, not in a thousand years when America is long gone. I haven't 'integrated' into socially liberal America and I see no reason why other immigrant children will. On the contrary, in England today the Faith is being revitalized by devout immigrants from South Asia, Africa, and the Caribbean who, among other things, loathe abortion. The two most prominent intellectual leaders of the Church of England today are a Pakistani and a Ugandan who hold bishoprics in England.

So forbidding abortion is oppressive to women. I see. That would be why India, Japan and China are such paragons of women's rights. Women are much better off in Latin America, where abortion is illegal- yes even in El Salvador- then in a country like India where it is freely available. Likewise women are much better off in a country like Ireland or Poland than in Japan. But never let the truth get in the way of a good bit of 'second wave feminist' propaganda.

I have nothing to 'deal with', what you need to deal with the 40 million victims of your abortion licence, and also with the broken inner city families that are due to your abortion licence.

You want to 'liberate' women by setting them free to be as promiscuous, selfish and materialistic as men have traditionally been. On the contrary, I say that we need to encourage men to be as self-sacrificing and self-abnegating as women traditionally were. You want to set women 'free' by negating their essential feminity, the uniquely feminine attribute of being able to create life. This is akin to the apostles of globalization and 'modernization' who want to set 'free' Third World farmers by luring them away from their farming communities and negating their identities as peasants. Well, I'm opposed to globalization and capitalism for much the same reasons as I am opposed to abortion.

When people are free, sometimes they make decisions you may disagree with.

Therefore, whether or not women will become "promiscuous, selfish and materialistic" is irrelevant. It is their right to choose their own path, much as it is your right to attack them for it. You may not require women to be self-sacrificing and self-abnegating as you want them to be.

Nor is a woman "able to create life." That statement ignores the fact that, barring external medical assistance, the act of reproduction requires components from both a male and a female. You make it sound as if every woman is the mythical Virgin Mary.

Thankfully, Hector, in this country we have something called the Constitution, and therefore it really doesn't matter what your belief, or your church's belief, is. This handy-dandy thing called the First Amendment keeps you from enforcing your religious morality upon those who choose not to believe in your sky being.

"It doesn't matter what American Catholics think. The Church is not a democracy, thank God, and is not answerable to the American people. Its teaching on abortion will never change- not now, not in a hundred years, not in a thousand years when America is long gone."

Actually, the Church's strong anti-abortion stand is of rather recent vintage. In fact, when Father de las Casas (the missionary that went over with Columbus) first observed Arawark civilization, he regarded it as a good thing that women could easily have an abortion by chewing a root. The Bible, after all, doesn't really make a big deal about abortion anyway.

"I haven't 'integrated' into socially liberal America and I see no reason why other immigrant children will."

Because it happens all the time. I'm a product of that. I know several strongly conservative Catholic children of Latino immigrants who are also strongly pro-choice. This is simply how integration is currently working in this country. Just because you hate the US because you converted to some weird version of Christian Stalinism in college doesn't mean what you have gone through means anything to any other children of immigrants.

"On the contrary, in England today the Faith is being revitalized by devout immigrants from South Asia, Africa, and the Caribbean who, among other things, loathe abortion. The two most prominent intellectual leaders of the Church of England today are a Pakistani and a Ugandan who hold bishoprics in England."

The last time I checked, England is not the US. It is harder to integrate into English society than American society. My relatives in England face a lot more daily racism than I do in the US. England, after all, is a country where someone has to choose whether they are a Jew living in England or an Englishman who just happens to be Jewish but has little connection to their faith, but really cannot be an English Jew like someone can be an American Jew with complementary sets of overlapping identities. Basically you are arguing in favor of embracing a ghetto mentality for recent immigrants of turning to faith to cut oneself off from the society at large.

"So forbidding abortion is oppressive to women. I see. That would be why India, Japan and China are such paragons of women's rights. Women are much better off in Latin America, where abortion is illegal- yes even in El Salvador- then in a country like India where it is freely available. Likewise women are much better off in a country like Ireland or Poland than in Japan. But never let the truth get in the way of a good bit of 'second wave feminist' propaganda."

Considering that what you consider good for women basically consists of having them barefoot, pregnant and getting their man a beer, your judgment on this is suspect. Also, I hate the second wave and am more of a third and fourth wave feminist. All you have really shown us is that Japan overall needs to do more to push through feminist legislation through the Diet and norms in society and that legalizing abortion alone is not enough. Some studies lead us to believe that the abortion rate pre-Roe in the US was actually higher than post-Roe.

Before Roe, working class women were dying in back-alley abortion clinics while rich women could have doctors do it for them privately and discreetly at home or go abroad for abortions. Criminalizing women doesn't free them. It just increases the number of dying, unhealthy working class women and increases the social distance between working class and wealthy women while decreasing the former's social mobility.

Reality Man,

You evidently know rather little about Christian theology. Abortion is condemned explicitly in a number of early Christian writings including the Didache, which records the teaching of the Apostles, and in documents like the "Apocalypse of Peter" which were believed to be inspired by much of the early church. No apostolic Christian body has ever accepted abortion. Not even the Christian heresies did that, unless you include the ones like the Carpocratians which were actively anti-moral (which rather proves my point.)

De Las Casas, by the way, who was an unimpeachable hero, did not 'endorse' abortion. Rather, he argued that Spanish colonization was so cruel and disruptive to Arawak society that it drove Arawak women to abortion. He wasn't exonerating the women, rather he was arguing that the Spanish colonizers were even more to blame. Please see Londa Schiebinger, "Plants and Empire: Colonial Bioprospecting in the New World." Harvard University Press, 2004.

"You evidently know rather little about Christian theology. Abortion is condemned explicitly in a number of early Christian writings including the Didache, which records the teaching of the Apostles, and in documents like the "Apocalypse of Peter" which were believed to be inspired by much of the early church. No apostolic Christian body has ever accepted abortion. Not even the Christian heresies did that, unless you include the ones like the Carpocratians which were actively anti-moral (which rather proves my point.)"

And what does this really add up to? Just because some early writings can be interpreted in a certain way doesn't mean there is a long, unchanging line from them to the current Papal stance on abortion. St. Paul was rather critical of religious people getting married instead of embracing celibacy in part of devotion to god. However, the Papacy didn't get around to requiring the clergy to take a vow of celibacy for centuries after assuming power in Europe and only when priests passing on church land to their sons became a problem for the Church. However, using your form of argumentation here, I could claim that the Catholic Church has had an unchanging requirement of clerical celibacy since St. Peter's time.

Besides, what some early Christians said about abortion tells us nothing about the original point of this post, which is whether or not the GOP can embrace Ross's and Reihan's vision.

Reality Man,

If I can show that abortion was condemned by the Jewish prophets in the 5th century BC, by the Apostles in the first century, by the church fathers in the fourth century, by the doctors of the church in the thirteenth century, by the popes in the nineteenth century, and by every major apostolic church today, then it would seem the burden of proof is on you to show that Christianity has ever been less than unqualifiedly critical of abortion. If you can show me a single authoritative teacher (a Pope, Church Father, or authoritative theologian within any of the apostolic churches) who ever argued that abortion was licit, I would like to see it. If not, then please acknowledge you're wrong.

(Interestingly enough, as far as I know the only _ancient_ cultures which had the moral wisdom to condemn abortion were the Jews and the Zoroastrian-Persians--this last in contradiction to The Dishonorable Blackmun's absurd and mendacious citation of 'Persian law' in his Roe vs. Wade travesty. One wonders whether the Jews and Persians came to this conclusion independently or one borrowed the idea from the other during the Babylonian Exile.)

By the way, I may have come off as more abusive then I actually feel (it's a bad habit of mine to take political polemic very personally). I don't _actually_ think that you support abortion becuase you like promiscuous f---ing, and I'm sorry for having said that. By the same token, I would expect you to remember that I have fairly explicitly condemned Stalin and the Bolsheviks on this blog before, whatever my sympathies for various other authoritarian Left movements. 'Christian Stalinist' simply won't wash, and if you insist on using it then I will have to use similarly abusive and groundless slurs about you, as my defence.

Reality Man wrote:

"Some studies lead us to believe that the abortion rate pre-Roe in the US was actually higher than post-Roe."

Could you provide a link to these studies? I would be very interested to see any kind of evidence supporting something so counterintuitive.

"Before Roe, working class women were dying in back-alley abortion clinics while rich women could have doctors do it for them privately and discreetly at home or go abroad for abortions."

This is a favorite among pro-choicers, and it is simply not true. The Centers for Disease Control reported that 39 women died of illegal abortion in 1972--the year before Roe--while 24 women died of legal abortion that same year. Meanwhile, eleven women died of legal abortion in 2000.

And should Roe fall, I'm sure pro-choicers will support laws that require women to establish residency in a state for at least thirty days before obtaining an abortion, or any other kind of legislation that will make it difficult for wealthier women to avoid the laws that poorer women must face. Right?

"Criminalizing women doesn't free them."

As far as I know, none of the states that have laws on the books restricting abortion once Roe falls include penalties for the mother. Mothers were not prosecuted before Roe, and they won't be after Roe falls.

"Indeed, as usual, men and women support legal abortion in roughly equal numbers: 54 percent of men, and 58 percent of women, say it should be legal in all or most cases. In the various conditions tested, moreover, men and women express virtually identical views...

There are no major differences between mens' and womens' stands on the issue. 40% of men believe abortion should be generally available, and 37% of women think it should be. 20% of men think it should not be permitted, and slightly more women, 24%, agree.

Haven't EITHER of you heard of a significance factor or a margin of error?

Statistics shouldn't be thrown around by people who don't know anything about statistics. Both those results are statistical ties.

(Hector, by the way, is dead wrong in the IMPLICATIONS of his argument-- support for abortion hasn't really changed at all in the 35 years since Roe. Pro-lifers have been telling us for years how they are going to move public opinion their way (to be fair, pro-choicers have told us that as well), but it hasn't happened and there's no evidence that it will.)


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