« Remembering Robert Jordan | Main | Underestimating Sex »

Redeeming Dubya (II)

02 Jun 2008 09:28 am

I think Daniel Larison is misconstruing the point I was making in this piece on Bush's potential rehabilitation. I wrote:

... for history’s judgment to turn favorable, America’s intervention in Iraq eventually needs to come out looking like a success story rather than a folly.

This seems improbable, to put it mildly. But the crucial word here is eventually. The Bush administration has often seemed bent on vindicating, in the short run and by force of arms, Francis Fukuyama’s famous long-term prediction that liberal democracy will ultimately triumph. Now Bush’s hopes for vindication depend on the Middle East’s following a gradual, Fukuyaman track toward free markets, democratic government, and the “end of history.” And just as crucially, they depend on American troops’ staying in Iraq for as long as it takes for that to happen. If these events come to pass—if the Iraq of 2038 or so is stable, democratic, and at peace with its neighbors, and if American troops have maintained a constant presence in the country—no one should be surprised to hear hawkish liberals as well as conservatives taking up the idea that George W. Bush deserves a great deal of the credit.

To which Larison responds:

There is something a bit strange about this paragraph. If Bush’s hopes for vindication rest on the old long-term evolution towards the triumph of liberal democracy and capitalism, which will, if we believe Fukuyama, happen because there are no viable rival doctrines or systems that can compete with these things, and the attempt to force that vindication through the war in Iraq was the wrong way to promote this, how exactly does it aid in Bush’s vindication over the long term to keep American forces in Iraq? Either Fukuyama’s long-term argument about the effects of modernisation is basically correct, in which case the U.S. does not need to maintain a neo-colonial steward role in shepherding Iraq towards continued modernisation, or it isn’t, which raises the prospect that liberal democracy and capitalism will not endure in Iraq without a perpetual American presence propping up an alien and artificial system that will collapse as soon as we leave. The latter alternatve is neither realistic nor desirable, and the former theory is almost certainly false, but in either case vindication by Fukuyama’s long-term theory necessarily means that a continued U.S. presence is unnecessary, just as the war was actually unnecessary in the first place on the terms most favourable to Fukuyama’s original argument, or Fukuyama is wrong and our forces will have to stay there indefinitely, which is not a politically or militarily viable possibility.

I may not have expressed myself as precisely as I should have. My point was not that the combination of a gradual upward ascent in Iraqi affairs (which I consider a stronger possibility than Larison does, being more sympathetic to the Fukuyaman thesis and more encouraged by recent developments in Iraq than he) and a long-lasting American presence in that country would actually vindicate Bush's decision to invade that country; it was that the combination of favorable developments in Iraq and a constant U.S. military presence would provide grist for the American tendency to take the credit for good long-range outcomes and ignore the blunders and crimes along the way. (Hence my remark later in the piece that "if LBJ or Nixon had only found a way to prop up South Vietnam until the 1990s, they might have been forgiven the outrageous cost in blood and treasure, and remembered as Trumanesque heroes rather than as goats," which was emphatically not intended as a vindication of either President's Vietnam policy.) As I said, I think this tendency is generally a bad one, not least because it often rests on logical fallacies of the sort that Larison takes apart above. But that doesn't mean it won't be potent enough to redeem the seemingly unredeemable reputation of our current President.

Comments (18)

Iraq likely will be a success long term and will have greatly benefitted from the US invasion. Left alone, Saddam Hussein would have ruled the country for another twenty years or so (further and further into the ground) and then some kind of civil war involving his two sons in a dynastic struggle would have taken place. Above all, Iraq will succeed because countries, like people, very rarely commit suicide. However, even if Iraq becomes a stable, wealthy democracy tomorrow, this war was a disaster and Bush is a failure. Why? Because Bush is president of the United States and not Iraq. This war is and will always be a net loss for the US. The only question left is how bad the final bill is going to be.

If we had found a way to prop up South Vietnam until the 1990s, several hundred thousand who died in re-education camps, as boat people, etc., would be alive. I understand the realist perspective which says that the lives of a few hundred thousand little yellow people plus or minue don't much matter, and I understand the popular, nationalist argument which says that one American life is more important than a thousand furriners, but what's the official reason why we're better off with all those people dead?

I fear that you're right that some would try to argue that a minimally functional quasi-democracy in Iraq in 2020 will be taken by some to vindicate our invasion (leaving aside the argument over how likely it is that the pony turns up in Iraq while we're there).

But it would be great if you're wrong.

Republican democracy and capitalism are really, really good things. It sure would be awesome if we could have a little faith in our system of government-- if we let countries like Vietnam tend toward the end of history on their own, rather than launching intermittent, counterproductive democracy jihads.

I'm of two minds on this. The first acknowledges that good can come from bad, and that, like Machiavelli, we should consider less the "noise and shouts" of event, and consider more the resulting good effects should the latter arrive. By this way of thinking, Bush's act, which threw Iraq into chaos and chance, was rash and maybe even despicable. But if it turns out that chaos and criticality were condition precedents for the ultimate "good effects"*** -- necessary not sufficient first causes of a stable outcome in Iraq -- then Bush is responsible for every possible outcome whose path was ultimately dependent on the enabling strife he let loose in Iraq. That's true if it's a very bad outcome, and true if it's a very good outcome.

The other way of thinking is less theoretical and less generous, and uses terminology pushed forward by the Republicans that we should judge a leader not by results but by his inclination, belief and intent at the time of decision. If that becomes the standard way of looking at Bush, and IMHO it should be the standard way of looking at all Presidents, then I think history will judge Bush a failure in his self-proclaimed role as the decider, whatever ends up happening in Iraq.

*** In complex systems, criticality exposes new isthmuses in possibility space; as such it's often a condition precedent for abrupt phase shifts in socio-cultural norms and legal institutions -- for instance, replacing Saddam's Sunni police state with a stable, peaceful Shia dominated republican democracy was 1) impossible from the get-go, 2) possible with a high degree of parametric control by an external agent (which we almost forfeited by trying to leave a "light footprint"), or 3) a naturally possible outcome given a sufficient amount of chaos and coalition-size equality (where no coalition can grow arbitrarily large and dominate the others).

It seems to me we did the absolute minimum of #2 to ensure #3, which is still nothing more than a possibility.

Goodness, the amplification only makes the vacuity of the original contention more obvious. Under such reasoning, credit for the creation of Israel will eventually be awarded to Adolph Hitler.

I don't know why you usede the counter-historical argument of Vietnam. It seems to me that Korea is a much, much better argument.

Truman looks good today because (in large part) the Korean War looks good today. South Korea became a prosperous, anti-Communist member of the West, and for the past 20+ years, a democratic country to boot. That wasn't so certain in 1952. Moreover, this doesn't depend on the Fukayama thesis, given that North Korea (unlike the rest of the Communist world) has resolutely resisted the pull of Fukayama's point.

Under such reasoning, credit for the creation of Israel will eventually be awarded to Adolph Hitler.

Or George III for America. The difference, of course, is that a stable democratic Iraq is our goal, and we're intimately involved in the efforts to reach it.

Ross,

Your analysis is incorrect. We fought a long and costly war to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. By the mid-70s we didn't see any more nations "fall to communism". Wouldn't this view of history vindicate LBJ?

But you know what? LBJ isn't vindicated. The domino theory is rejected and Vietnam was looked at as a fruitless endeavor because the US is Vietnam's biggest trading partner. Vietnam isn't allied with Communist China. In fact they fought a war with Red China. And after the fall of Saigon we didn't see the spread of communism in the region; Thailand and Myanmar didn't go red.

So even if Iraq becomes a peaceful and prosperous nation many decades later, the underlying premise of the Bush doctrine has already been undone. The preventative war is already discredited. The war on terrorism is no closer to fruition. Iraq will certainly be an Islamist state 30 years from now; Islam is already written into the Iraqi constitution. Bush considered that a failure back in 2003. So in a realistic sense he already failed, no matter how much the goalposts are moved.

History won't vindicate him because history will remember, much like it remembers the failed premise of LBJ, that Bush had a failed premise in Iraq. No matter the outcome, Bush is history's loser. At least LBJ had civil rights and the Great Society to hang his hat on. Bush has, to his peril, pretty much ignored or failed on domestic policy for his legacy (hurricane Katrina, Social Security reform, etc.).

y81,

If I understand your post correctly, you are arguing that we should have worked to prop up S. Vietnam longer because the people of S. Vietnam would have been better off for it. Is that correct? Because it seems to be completely ignorant. You might recall that over 3 million Vietnamese died during the US leg of the Vietnam war. After the US leg ceased, the causalties for Vietnamese dropped to only a few thousand and then zero. After the US left, Vietnam ousted Pol Pot from Cambodia, stopped a genocide on par with Stalin in terms of % of population. So if you are doing a body count of the "yellow people", ending the war in Vietnam was much better than continuation.

Of course the neo-con argument has all along been intellectually dishonest in its revision of Vietnam; namely that leaving Vietnam was a bad thing and that we should not have left. Therefore it is no surprise that, in regards to Iraq, the arguments that we should "stay the course" are similar in scope and disingenuousness.

"People ask me who my heroes are. I admire Hitler.... But the situation here [Vietnam] is so desperate now that one man would not be enough. We need four or five Hitlers in Vietnam."

- Marshal Nguyen Cao Ky, Prime Minister of South Viet Nam

Nice bunch of people were our 'friends' in South Vietnam.

It won't be potent enough to redeem him, because even if he did turn out to be right, that doesn't redeem the incompetence, negligence, fraud, deception (add another 20 of these), and sheer fucking stupidity of the man.

James wrote: "It won't be potent enough to redeem him, because even if he did turn out to be right, that doesn't redeem the incompetence, negligence, fraud, deception (add another 20 of these), and sheer fucking stupidity of the man."

That's worth repeating.

Re: Iraq likely will be a success long term and will have greatly benefitted from the US invasion.

Medieval Europe benefited from the Black Death, and modern Germany and Japan benefited nicely from having much of their old infrastructure pulverized in WWII. That doesn't make those calamities popular, or desirable.

Re: If we had found a way to prop up South Vietnam until the 1990s, several hundred thousand who died in re-education camps, as boat people, etc., would be alive.

And we had found a way not to escalate a minor civil war in Indochina when the French pulled out, most of thsoe people, and over two million more, would never have been in danger in the first place. Sure Ho Chi Minh would have run an authoritarian show, and some people would have suffered, but the sum total of suffering would still ahve been orders of magnitude less.

My point was not that the combination of a gradual upward ascent in Iraqi affairs (which I consider a stronger possibility than Larison does, being more sympathetic to the Fukuyaman thesis and more encouraged by recent developments in Iraq than he) and a long-lasting American presence in that country would actually vindicate Bush's decision to invade that country; it was that the combination of favorable developments in Iraq and a constant U.S. military presence would provide grist for the American tendency to take the credit for good long-range outcomes and ignore the blunders and crimes along the way.

what "crimes"? impeachable crimes? please elaborate, mr douthat.

and don't bother answering for him. he's a big boy.

It is unlikely that the reputation of either Jimmy Carter or George W. Bush will rise, even if either or both were found to have been supremely right about one matter of critical policy - given they failed on so many others.

However, the reputation of Nixon is likely to rise as historians are better able to see the ethical flaws of other leaders that the media and their hagiographers covered up....and better able to assess the long-term impact of their Presidencies.

Already, historians are assigning the 1st half of the 20th Century to to FDR as the most consequential leader but crediting the 2nd half as the Nixonian Age - shaped by the diplomacy and dozens of successful initiatives and programs Nixon started that have endured and prospered in the 35 years since he left office.

Nixon was brilliant, and beneath the MSM noise about Vietnam and Watergate and his odious flaws, he quietly implimented tremendous reforms and new policies as a moderate-centrist that was 80-90% successful in policies that permanently changed America and the world.

Given those accomplishments and the loss of control of the "approved Nixon narrative" of the old media dominated by liberal and leftist Jews - Nixon is on his way up. But it is hard to see what will salvage the reputations of Carter or Dubya.

So what you're saying is, basically, that if McCain is elected, Bush's legacy will be one of success, rather than failure.

Ross speaks of logical fallacies...This whole discussion, including the bulk of the commentary, is tainted by the Broken Window Fallacy.

If a shoemaker gets his window broken, his purchase of a new window is NOT a net gain to the economy, because of the opportunity cost of replacing the window. The investment would have been more productively placed elsewhere. The WTC reconstruction did NOT stimulate economic growth. The Vietnam police action did not "save lives". It seems like common sense would suggest that production comcomitant on destruction is not a very efficient way to improve our lot.

searching for "good" results dervived from "bad" events is a desperate exercize, most often employed to assuage guilt, shirk responsibility, or avoid psychological depression. Looking for the silver lining in a cluster**** we're responsible for might alleviate feelings that you or your identifying group are total sonofabitches. (I say, "we're responsible for" because this kind of rationalization is almost never applied to the actions of others with whom one doesn't identify).


Plus, assuming that there is a causal relationship between bad event and good outcome is specious and invalid. With human actors involved, there are any number of potential initial reactions, and cascading reactions to the initiation of any primary action, good or bad. If good comes from bad, it is more dependent on how autonomous actors choose to react to the bad--"good" effects cannot be attributed to the "bad" event itself...thats why we call it "Bad"!

It is disgusting to assign credit for a good consequence to the initiator of a "bad" action, when it is the reacting parties who are directly responsible for the good effect. What insipid, collectivist narcissism to even consider crediting Bush with peace and prosperity in Iraq if it should ever come to pass.


Either each act of good and bad is its own act, to be judged against some moral principle, or everything becomes a giant equivilance game on a aggregating scale, with 51% good making something "good" rather than "bad. Basically, vapid utilitarianism.


If I ever hear a "conservative" complain about moral relativity ever again, I'll relatively kick their butt down the street.

ex: to say that the war was "good" because we got rid of saddam, is like saying we should carpetbomb the NY/NJ/CT tristate to fight organized crime.

Ross speaks of logical fallacies...This whole discussion, including the bulk of the commentary, is tainted by the Broken Window Fallacy.

If a shoemaker gets his window broken, his purchase of a new window is NOT a net gain to the economy, because of the opportunity cost of replacing the window. The investment would have been more productively placed elsewhere. The WTC reconstruction did NOT stimulate economic growth. The Vietnam police action did not "save lives". It seems like common sense would suggest that production comcomitant on destruction is not a very efficient way to improve our lot.

searching for "good" results dervived from "bad" events is a desperate exercize, most often employed to assuage guilt, shirk responsibility, or avoid psychological depression. Looking for the silver lining in a cluster**** we're responsible for might alleviate feelings that you or your identifying group are total sonofabitches. (I say, "we're responsible for" because this kind of rationalization is almost never applied to the actions of others with whom one doesn't identify).


Plus, assuming that there is a causal relationship between bad event and good outcome is specious and invalid. With human actors involved, there are any number of potential initial reactions, and cascading reactions to the initiation of any primary action, good or bad. If good comes from bad, it is more dependent on how autonomous actors choose to react to the bad--"good" effects cannot be attributed to the "bad" event itself...thats why we call it "Bad"!

It is disgusting to assign credit for a good consequence to the initiator of a "bad" action, when it is the reacting parties who are directly responsible for the good effect. What insipid, collectivist narcissism to even consider crediting Bush with peace and prosperity in Iraq if it should ever come to pass.


Either each act of good and bad is its own act, to be judged against some moral principle, or everything becomes a giant equivilance game on a aggregating scale, with 51% good making something "good" rather than "bad. Basically, vapid utilitarianism.


If I ever hear a "conservative" complain about moral relativity ever again, I'll relatively kick their butt down the street.

ex: to say that the war was "good" because we got rid of saddam, is like saying we should carpetbomb the NY/NJ/CT tristate to fight organized crime.


Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.