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The Past Is Another Country

29 Jun 2008 05:58 pm

You should, of course, read Norman Ornstein’s review of Grand New Party in the Sunday Times Book Review, but you should also read David Frum’s demolition of Allan Lichtman’s White Protestant Nation, which purports to be a history of American conservatism from the KKK (yes, it's that sort of book) to the present. This passage sums up the essence of Frum's critique, which could apply equally well to some other recent attempts to analyze liberalism and conservatism:

“White Protestant Nation” fails ... because Lichtman lacks the historian’s intuition for change over time. He hails women’s suffrage as progressive and damns immigration restriction as antipluralist and reactionary. Yet many of the most important proponents of suffrage favored immigration restriction — and many of the pro-immigrant groups opposed suffrage. Advocates of racial equality like Norman Thomas could also be adamant isolationists; internationalists like J. William Fulbright could be determined segregationists. Facing this refractory reality, it might make sense to accept that the political alignments of the 2000s cannot easily be projected backward 70 years or more.

Perhaps the single most famous attempt to impose a white Protestant identity upon America was the State of Oregon’s effort to suppress Catholic schools, which culminated in a landmark Supreme Court case named for Walter Pierce, the Democratic governor who signed the legislation. During World War II, Pierce, by then a member of Congress, would favor the internment of Japanese-Americans. He was also a supporter of women’s rights, prison reform and New Deal economic legislation. So: Was Walter Pierce a liberal? Or a conservative? Or perhaps we should accept that once we voyage back in time, we arrive in a different political landscape, with issues not easily assimilated into our present-day controversies. Lichtman, like Gilbert and Sullivan, believes contrary-wise that every child born alive is born a little liberal or else a little conservative.

The question of how to read the current liberal-conservative split back in time is, of course, one of the many strands in Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism, a book that I once promised to comment on at length and then - as its author helpfully points out today - never followed through. Mea culpa! All I can say is that haven't forgotten my promise, and still intend to make good on it - and Jonah should be pleased to know that I receive an average of an email a week reminding me that I haven't delivered on that front. Soon, I promise, soon ...

Comments (47)

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Liberal Fascism compares liberals in general and specifically Hillary Clinton to Mussolini and Hitler--on its cover. Yes, it's that kind of book. Thanks for pretending like it's a legitimate political criticism instead of warmed over Sean Hannity-Ann Coulter bulljive. Stay classy.

ed writes: "Liberal Fascism compares liberals in general and specifically Hillary Clinton to Mussolini and Hitler--on its cover. Yes, it's that kind of book. Thanks for pretending like it's a legitimate political criticism instead of warmed over Sean Hannity-Ann Coulter bulljive. Stay classy."

ed, Ross is the same guy who links to white supremacist Steve Sailer and who denounces a poor black woman as a "welfare duchess" because her TV seems too large to him. He'd be right up there with Hannity and Coulter if he could handle the telegenic/ready quip side of TV as "well" as they can. I certainly can't remember seeing him say anything truly negative about any of the leading Repiglican hatemongers. In fact, can anyone recall him doing so?

Only someone at the knee jerk hyper-partisan NRO could come up with a pointless exercise like Liberal Fascism. I mean, who really cares about this trivial nonsense.

The gladhanding with reactionaries such as Goldberg is unseemly at best, Douthat.

You're proving even your most unhinged critics to be precogs at a devastating pace.

I'm sure you can find modern Americans who combine liberal and conservative philosophies in strange ways to form their point of view. Apparently, the present is another country as well.

The question of how to read the current liberal-conservative split back in time is, of course, one of the many strands in Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism

I assume this is a backhanded slap at Goldberg, right?

I don't know of any book ever written that has been more guilty of failing to recognize the irreducible difference of the past - what Goldberg did was to take the fact that some socialists believed in eugenics and some engaged in some fascist practices, and used that to draw an equivalency between the contemporary center-left and the fascists of the 30s and 40s.

I for one will be making a judgement on how seriously to take you as a commentator, based on what you have to say about "Liberal Fascism".

Gosh..lots of bad words for the book from quite a few folks who obviously haven't read it. If any of you had, you certainly wouldn't be so dismissive. Say what you will about Goldberg's conclusions, but a shoddily-researched polemic it is not.

Mr. Douthat, I'm looking forward to your review.

If any of you had, you certainly wouldn't be so dismissive.

Dude, I read the cover. As with Hannity and Ann Coulter et al, this is most certainly an instance when you may judge a book by its cover. (There are plenty of other legitimate reasons to dismiss Mr. Goldberg, but one doesn't really need any, does one?)

Ed,

You read the cover, but did you read the story behind the cover? It was a quote by H.G. Wells and the smiley face is based on George Carlin describing the future of America being "smiley-face fascism".

You would be better to attack Goldberg's argument rather than just ad hominem him and his book. The argument is that fascism was a distinctly left-wing (progressive) entity rather than the conventional wisdom of it being right-wing (in the American classical liberal sense). http://kevinschmidt.blogtownhall.com/2008/06/20/was_fascism_right-wing.thtml

It's wrong to dismiss Goldberg argument because he works for NR, and it is also wrong to dismiss Krugman's work because he is a "progressive" NYT columnist. It shows intellectual laziness.

Ed,

You read the cover, but did you read the story behind the cover? It was a quote by H.G. Wells and the smiley face is based on George Carlin describing the future of America being "smiley-face fascism".

You would be better to attack Goldberg's argument rather than just ad hominem him and his book. The argument is that fascism was a distinctly left-wing (progressive) entity rather than the conventional wisdom of it being right-wing (in the American classical liberal sense). http://kevinschmidt.blogtownhall.com/2008/06/20/was_fascism_right-wing.thtml

It's wrong to dismiss Goldberg argument because he works for NR, and it is also wrong to dismiss Krugman's work because he is a "progressive" NYT columnist. It shows intellectual laziness.

It shows intellectual laziness.

Hitler was a vegetarian.
A lot of those liberal types are vegetarian.
Therefore, liberals are like Hitler.

I'm sorry, you were saying?

You read the cover, but did you read the story behind the cover?

Yeah, I heard that. It's bulljive. Nice try, Sparky. Maybe next time.

the smiley face is based on George Carlin describing the future of America being "smiley-face fascism".

I'm guessing irony ain't your strong suit. Call it a hunch.

"Dude, I read the cover. As with Hannity and Ann Coulter et al, this is most certainly an instance when you may judge a book by its cover. (There are plenty of other legitimate reasons to dismiss Mr. Goldberg, but one doesn't really need any, does one?)"

Spoken like a book-burning liberal fascist. LOL. To lump him in with Hannity who is a witless party hack - something hardly lacking on the left - and Coulter, who is an over-the-top polemnicist and attention whore is pretty witless stuff.

In fact, my principal complaint about Goldberg's book is the frequent asides to the effect that in spite of the bewildering commonalities between American progressive intellectuals, the international left and fascism - that the American character is such that the historical monstrosities of Europe are not replicable here. It needed to be said but he made similar gestures at absolving the American left of malice with such frequency that it disturbed the flow of what is a fascinating and exhaustively researched bit of pop history.

That he went out of his way to do thusly is pretty generous considering the project's raison d'etre was to serve as a rebuttal to the brainless left's whitewash of its own intellectual history and casual use of the fascist invective to silence anti-big-government, free-market conservatives.

Scott writes: "That he went out of his way to do thusly is pretty generous considering the project's raison d'etre was to serve as a rebuttal to the brainless left's whitewash of its own intellectual history and casual use of the fascist invective to silence anti-big-government, free-market conservatives."

"Fascist" is a much better descriptive for the likes of Dick Cheney than "anti-big-government, free-market conservative" is. Jonah Goldberg's inability to see or admit that is the best reason to dismiss his vapid little tome as yet more party hack ballwashing.

MoeLarryAndJesus (clever, by the way),

Had you read the book you would have seen a closing that discussed the big government conservatism of the Bush administration as an extension of the same liberal fascism he critiques throughout.

I love reading these comments.

"Liberal philosophy shares roots with fascist ideology? Ridiculous, absurd, not even worth considering the argument, and even suggesting it is the mark of an evil loathsome mind!"

"Dick Cheney and Republicans in general are fascists and always have been fascists - DUH! Obvious, a given, not even worth debating!"

The Left's lack of self-awareness at their own stark raving double standards and hypocrisies never ceases to amuse.

Qwinn

Biggus Rickus writes: "Had you read the book you would have seen a closing that discussed the big government conservatism of the Bush administration as an extension of the same liberal fascism he critiques throughout."

File that under "too little, too late," chuckles. Where was that critique of the Bushpigs before they became lame ducks and universal pariahs? It sure as shit wasn't coming from Jonah. Jonah's "closing" is just part of the movement con step away from the losers they backed for so long - because they're now looking for new losers, and of course CONSERVATISM NEVER FAILS!

If Dumbya were at 55% approval in the polls Jonah's book would have a very different closing, but it would still have the same cover.

I can't argue with that kind of willfull ignorance.

Qwinn "qwotes" and writes: ""Liberal philosophy shares roots with fascist ideology? Ridiculous, absurd, not even worth considering the argument, and even suggesting it is the mark of an evil loathsome mind!"

"Dick Cheney and Republicans in general are fascists and always have been fascists - DUH! Obvious, a given, not even worth debating!"

The Left's lack of self-awareness at their own stark raving double standards and hypocrisies never ceases to amuse.

Qwinn

Posted by Qwinn "

It's nice how you made up quotes to respond to, douchebag - you Repiglicans love your straw men. No wonder you signed twice - you were born a two-faced bastard, weren't you?

NRO was certainly full of people who were cheerleaders for Bush until the last possible moment. However, from my recollections, Goldberg really wasn't one of those folks, and aired some Iraq dubiety before that became popular on the Right. I'm not sure, at least given his output over the last 8 years, why Goldberg is such a bete noire to some people -- he's among the more reasonable folks at National Review, not particularly a party shill. WRONG about many things, mind, and his dismissal of crunchy conservatism missed a lot of points, but still. It's puzzling why he's so loathed, compared to others...

The puerile manner and insular nature of someone like MoeLarryandJesus pretty much assures that his engagement in the marketplace of ideas is pretty much an exercise in auto-eroticism.

Is there anything sadder to witness than self-marginalization?

Goldberg is a highly combative partisan mischief-maker. Nothing terribly wrong with that. It is a little odd to see his fans accusing his opponents of "ad hominem" arguing.

NRO was certainly full of people who were cheerleaders for Bush until the last possible moment. However, from my recollections, Goldberg really wasn't one of those folks, and aired some Iraq dubiety before that became popular on the Right. I'm not sure, at least given his output over the last 8 years, why Goldberg is such a bete noire to some people -- he's among the more reasonable folks at National Review, not particularly a party shill. WRONG about many things, mind, and his dismissal of crunchy conservatism missed a lot of points, but still. It's puzzling why he's so loathed, compared to others...

Okay, "MoeLarryandJesus", tell us which of my two "made up quotes" you disagree with in even the slightest way.

This should be good.

Qwinn

Scott babbles: "The puerile manner and insular nature of someone like MoeLarryandJesus pretty much assures that his engagement in the marketplace of ideas is pretty much an exercise in auto-eroticism.

Is there anything sadder to witness than self-marginalization? "

I certainly have been enjoying watching the GOP self-marginalize itself, Scotty. Nothing sad about it. And I'm far from "insular," but then perhaps you were reaching for a term outside of your hick vocabulary.

A moron who signs twice replies: "Okay, "MoeLarryandJesus", tell us which of my two "made up quotes" you disagree with in even the slightest way."

Sure thing, moron. First, Republicans have not always been fascists. The Bush/Cheney wing sure fits that description, as befits a gang with deep roots in the criminal Nixon White House, but there was nothing fascistic about Dwight Eisenhower or Gerry Ford. I wouldn't even use the term to describe Reagan, though he did let some folks creep into his administration who deserved the label.

And I'll consider any argument, even ones made by ignorant pissants like you.

Oh, by the way, Moe? Since you insist on specific quotes?

"Ross is the same guy ... who denounces a poor black woman as a "welfare duchess" because her TV seems too large to him."

You really want to rest your hat on Sharon Jasper, a BDS-soaked woman who has admitted to living on the dole 57 out of her 58 years on this Earth? That's pretty good reason to call someone a "welfare duchess", I think.

Too funny.

Qwinn

The moron who signs twice writes: "You really want to rest your hat on Sharon Jasper, a BDS-soaked woman who has admitted to living on the dole 57 out of her 58 years on this Earth? That's pretty good reason to call someone a "welfare duchess", I think."

Yes, you would think so. Shitbags like you think you should be able to hunt the Sharon Jaspers of the world in the streets. What was she when she was a year old - a welfare princess?

Remind me of this after you vote for John McCain, a guy who has never drawn a private paycheck.

Keep it coming MoeLarry.

I think my point about your incredible lack of self-awareness and utter hypocrisy is easily made by the fact that you repeatedly refer to Republicans as "hatemongers". You have, in this single thread alone, spewed more wall-to-wall rancid hate and vitriol than I ever heard from Bush and Cheney issue publicly in their entire 7+ years in office about any Democrat. Combined. Seriously. And yes, that even includes what Cheney said to Leahy on the Senate floor. You're a complete hate-obsessed loon, and you don't even recognize your own hatred, you just project it on everyone else. It's -most- amusing when you project it onto Bush, who I (maddeningly) don't think has said a single impolite word about any Democrat since he took office.

Go ahead, rant and rave about how we Republicans are "hatemongers", and present your own hyperventilating hate-soaked rants as the alternative. There's no need to argue with someone as willfully ignorant and obsessed with hatred as you, as you discredit yourself with your own obvious hypocrisy. Thankfully, most of your fellow travelers are -exactly- the same.

(Hint: This is where you once again drop in a line about how us "Repiglicans" will be out of power come November, displaying you and your kind's own absolute obsession with political power, which you of course will -also- project onto people who never display it to a thousandth the degree that you do.)

Qwinn

The moron who keeps signing twice continues: "I think my point about your incredible lack of self-awareness and utter hypocrisy is easily made by the fact that you repeatedly refer to Republicans as "hatemongers". You have, in this single thread alone, spewed more wall-to-wall rancid hate and vitriol than I ever heard from Bush and Cheney issue publicly in their entire 7+ years in office about any Democrat. Combined. Seriously. And yes, that even includes what Cheney said to Leahy on the Senate floor. You're a complete hate-obsessed loon, and you don't even recognize your own hatred, you just project it on everyone else. It's -most- amusing when you project it onto Bush, who I (maddeningly) don't think has said a single impolite word about any Democrat since he took office."

True, Dumbya's too gutless to call out an individual, he just specializes in impugning the patriotism of EVERYONE who objects to his abandonment of habeas corpus and his use of torture and his barely-worth-mentioning use of LIES to start a war with a country which never attacked us and wasn't a threat. I'm glad you find his behavior so salutary.

Now run along and keep telling yourself that the genocidal fucking pigs you admire and support are nice, swell people because they're polite in public. I hate and despise Dumbya and Cheney for damn good reasons, just as I hate and despise Osama bin Laden. You know - the guy they forgot about once they decided to go to war where the oilfields are.

I don't think you even know what hypocrisy is, chuckles. Most Repiglicans don't.

Dear Lord. You are completely delusional. I rest my frikkin' case.

Qwinn

This again: "Dear Lord. You are completely delusional. I rest my frikkin' case.

Qwinn

Posted by Qwinn"

You never had a case, chuckles. You just had a gripe because you know your heroes are scumbags, and it pains you too much to admit that.

Mission Accomplished! Go Cheney Yourself!

My favoritest bit:

"Shitbags like you think you should be able to hunt the Sharon Jaspers of the world in the streets."

Oh, -exactly-. Yes, you caught us dead to rights. After all, expecting that after 57 years she should pay her own freaking rent like the rest of us, especially when she can afford a bigger TV than I ever had, is exactly equivalent to wanting to take a shotgun and blow her away on main street.

This is what I mean when I say that you are psychotically, utterly deranged. You're sick. Seriously. Mentally deranged. You need psychiatric help. Get it. Fast. Before you hurt someone. Cause you, sir, are on the f'ing -ledge-.

And you're also not worth one more moment of time. If you were a rational actor, I'd explain how every last "statement of fact" you've made in this thread was incorrect, but you are clearly way way way way way beyond anything approaching reason.

Seriously. Get help.

Qwinn

The moron replies: "Yes, you caught us dead to rights. After all, expecting that after 57 years she should pay her own freaking rent like the rest of us, especially when she can afford a bigger TV than I ever had, is exactly equivalent to wanting to take a shotgun and blow her away on main street."

Dear Stupid -

When Ross ran that post I checked out the NOLA Craigslist and found that a TV like that could be had for as little as $150. I'm sorry you can't afford such a luxury, but perhaps you could if you stopped cavorting with underaged prostitutes.

I do think you would like to be able to kill her - after all, your one shining moment on the Atlantic blogs has involved your spirited defense of General Pinochet, a mass-murdering fan of torture. No wonder you love Dick Cheney. Are all of your heroes such scumbags?

"This is what I mean when I say that you are psychotically, utterly deranged. You're sick. Seriously. Mentally deranged. You need psychiatric help. Get it. Fast. Before you hurt someone. Cause you, sir, are on the f'ing -ledge-."

I'm exceedingly rational. You probably believe in sky fairies and that the invasion of Iraq was a good idea. Pardon me if I think you're the fucking fruit loop here, chuckles.

Now run along and join McCain in singing, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran. See if you can hit the high notes without hitting yourself in the balls.

There's nothing like anonoymity to drag the level of discourse into the gutter. Congratulations on being a rancid cliché, MoeLarryAndJesus.

Dickus writes: "There's nothing like anonoymity to drag the level of discourse into the gutter. Congratulations on being a rancid cliché, MoeLarryAndJesus."

Our nation is currently run by gutter dwellers, Dickus, and I'm not afraid to use appropriate language when pointing that out. You and yours can live by the example of Rich Little, but I prefer George Carlin. Responding to obscenity such as the Bushpigs have wrought with polite, trivial chatter isn't on my menu today.

Holy fuck, Dickus! This is a thread prompted by a post referencing Goldberg's dumbass book that aligns liberals with fascists AT A TIME WHEN GOLDBERG'S HEROES HAVE TURNED THE US INTO A NATION WHICH USES TORTURE AS AN OFFICIAL POLICY INSTRUMENT. And you expect those of us who are revolted by this to treat it as just another policy discussion?

Eat a dickus.

Appropriate language. [snicker] Wouldn't you feel more at home on Democratic Underground? Maybe Daily Kos? Or you could fire of your own hyperbolic diatribes on your own blog! Imagine it: an outlet perused by literally dozens of likeminded indviduals! Think of the change you could evoke. Imagine the small choir to which you could preach. I'm excited! I don't know about you.

Dickus again: "Appropriate language. [snicker] Wouldn't you feel more at home on Democratic Underground? Maybe Daily Kos?"

Nah, I feel perfectly at home here. You seem to be new - if you don't like the atmosphere, why don't YOU fuck off and find some band of schoolmarms to cuddle with? Otherwise, take off your Hall Monitor badge and relax.

Does the Atlantic have any standards? Or do they think that allowing a commenter like MoeLarryandJesus to embarrass himself publicly while polluting their website is a positive good?

As a point of information, Mr. Sharon Jaspers wasn't on welfare, as far as I know. She was on section 8 subsidized housing, which is available to low income people who work as well as those whoa re unemployed. In an expensive big city there are a fair number of people who work and get subsidized housing.

It seems a little bizzarre to criticize Ms. Jaspers for collecting welfare as a child, too. She may well have a problem with a work ethic today, but there are plenty of people like George W. Bush who were born to inherited wealth which if you think about it is just as much a form of unearned income as Ms. Jaspers' welfare checks.

In other words, Moe is correct here.

David harrumphs: "Does the Atlantic have any standards? Or do they think that allowing a commenter like MoeLarryandJesus to embarrass himself publicly while polluting their website is a positive good?"

The Atlantic allows Ross to link to white supremacist Steve Sailer, which is their right, and you'll never say boo about that. Grow up, little boy. The world does not need to be sanitized for your protection.

Wow.

The irrational hatred, vulgarity, intelectual intolerance, & outright dishonesty of the Lefties here is shocking.

Let me guess, you must be the Jesus in Larry, Moe and Jesus.

Ew.

Why does the Atlantic let children like MoeLarryandJesus in here?

Moe, can't you go back to the HuffPo where you belong?

You know, with all the other inmates?


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