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Theodicy Revisited

06 Jun 2008 02:40 pm

A reader writes, amid a fascinating comments thread on this post:

From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED.

But as you point out the comparative facility of New Yorker writers to make the existence-of-evil argument, it is also grating for the equally well-off to make the free-will counter argument. I have led a pretty sheltered existence, and I've never known true evil, in my bones or in my gut. I have not known real hunger, or real pain. The oh so neat argument of free will seems so cold, so utterly irrelevant, when speaking with, say, a Holocaust survivor who has given up on God after experiencing the camps ... Of course you can point out that it is in that horror that other Holocaust survivors have found a reason to believe in God, but such considerations seem equally useless when talking not about the general presence of evil in the world, but about the precise and unique evils that one person has suffered.

The best Christian answer to the existence-of-evil argument seems to me to be, therefore, not the existence of free will (although, again, it is a perfectly valid response), but the much more concrete reality of Incarnation. God allowed evil to exist but He loves Man so much that He defeated it not just through the abstract (yet essential) gift of free will, but also by embracing His creature's condition and experiencing evil in the same ways.

Of course, from an atheist's perspective, this begs the question: to believe that God mitigated the presence of evil by experiencing and defeating it personally is to believe that God exists. But there is another way to put it: if it were possible to believe simultaneously in the existence of evil and in the existence of a benevolent God, then this benevolent God would have to be the kind of God who is willing to suffer evil alongside His creature and with the same intensity. This seems to me to be a very compelling answer.

The first point - that nobody wants to hear about how the existence of free will requires suffering from someone who hasn't suffered meaningfully themselves - is part of what interests me about the correlation between material comfort and complaints against God for permitting evil to flourish, the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike, and so forth. I've always thought that how you respond to the Christian argument about free will and the necessity of evil depends in large part on how you respond intuitively to the experience of human existence - whether you instinctively regard life, the universe and everything as a Very Good Thing with a certain amount of evil and corruption woven in, or whether you regard human life chiefly as "a business of evenly rationed suffering," as Wood puts it, with the constant possibility that the "truly unbearable" will suddenly consume everything that you hold dear. (Wood employs the evocative term "hellmouth" to describe this all-too-common worst-case scenario, a term he borrows from Norman Rush, who defined it as “the opening up of the mouth of hell right in front of you, without warning, through no fault of your own.”)

Like the commenter quoted above, I've never experienced anything that fits the "hellmouth" description - and this in turn makes me suspect that my own essentially positive response to the universe, and my accompanying assent to the logic of the Christian position concerning its design, is shaped in no small part by my sheltered and relatively comfortable existence. Which is why it's intuitively odd to me (though I can see all sorts of reasons why it might be so) to observe that in many cases the correlation seems to run the other way, and that my experience - in which comfort breeds acceptance of God's purposes, rather than rage at His putative injustice - is quite often the exception rather than the rule.

As to the broader point - that the Incarnation provides a better answer to the problem of evil than the argument from free will, even if the latter argument is valid - I'm basically in agreement, though I think it's important to note that the Incarnation isn't actually an "answer" in the way such things are typically understood. To say, in response to someone who asks "Why does God permit bad things to happen?," that "God permits suffering because He wants us to be free, and true freedom requires the possibility of sin and death," is to attempt a logical explanation of the phenomenon of suffering (and to invite further debate on the subject, at least up to a point). To respond to the same question, on the other hand, by saying that "God so loved the suffering world that He humbled himself to become Man and share in our suffering, even unto death on a cross," is something of a argument-stopper, since it addresses the problem only indirectly. Try as you might, you can't making God's willingess to "suffer evil alongside His creatures" into an explanation for why He allows evil to to exist in the first place. In effect, you're answering a question by presenting the questioner with a mystery - one whose relationship to the original problem can be intuited but not proved.

That being said, I suspect that more would-be believers troubled by the existence of evil are persuaded by the mystery of the Incarnation than by any more direct answer Christian theologians have mustered - which should tell us something about the nature of man, and perhaps of of God as well.

Comments (131)

I wonder if Ross (or any of the Christian apologists following these threads) has read Stanley Elkin's "The Living End."

One of the things that strikes some of us on "the other side" is how arbitrary and pointless much of the biblical notion of "good" is.

It seems to boil down to might makes right.

The problem with admitting that religion is basically a consensual hallucination is that the rest of us would really like you to stop using your hallucinations to influence political decisions.

Returning, for example, to the quote you posted the other day about meeting aborted fetuses in heaven. What does that mean? Is there going to be a long line of tiny little bodies screaming "you killed me!"? That's certainly the implication. But having read the posts and comments here for a while now, I still have no idea what the accepted concept of heaven is.

In heaven, do pro-life politicians also meet all the wanted children who never were born because an unwanted fetus was raised in its stead? Do they scream "you prevented me"? What about fertilized frozen embryo created in IVF? Do they scream "you abandoned me"?

Now, all of this would be very silly if it weren't so serious. But this comment: I suspect that more would-be believers troubled by the existence of evil are persuaded by the mystery of the Incarnation than by any more direct answer Christian theologians have mustered appears to me to concede that Christianity is at its core nothing but a big fantasy.

I must say that I think the Incarnation is an answer to the problem of evil, but a much better one than free will alone. Free will might explain why God permits evil to exist, but that's only half the story. For instance, it does not explain the purpose or end of suffering, and it does not give us much hope of overcoming suffering (we can't just be good in a fallen world and expect to avoid suffering).

This is why the Incarnation is key. It says that God not only shares in the suffering he permits, but that he does so in a way that transforms suffering into a redemptive experience -- not just in the person of Christ, but in all of us who become part of Christ through faith and baptism. Thus Paul says: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." (Col. 1:24).

In that sense, the gospel of Christ and Christ crucified is the only explanation of why a good God would permit evil and suffering. He does so not because the logic of free will mandates it, but rather because he is able to turn all things -- even suffering -- to good. In the same way, a father might let a child learning to ride a bike risk a fall, but only because he knows (1) that the fall won't kill the child and (2) that he will be there to help if one does occur.

Gosh, I checked comments on the original post back when there were 30 or so. Did not find a more interesting debate than usually results from a straightforward religious question on this site.

There are over 90 comments there now and I confess to not looking through them.

But it seems to me that as the capacity of homo sapiens' to organize and master manufacturing, transportation and such has grown so has our capacity for evil. I know the hideous cruelty that neolithic humans and early-civilization humans were capable of. But the organization and bureaucracy of torture and genicide constitutes a difference in kind not in degree.

The discomforts and tragedies of life were more common to persons living in earlier times. But we have the 'window' of TV that allows us to gaze on the stacked skulls of Cambodia. I imagine that rather few of our forebears had windows that opened onto killing fields.

So to me it's a wash. We individually live in very very fortunate circumstances. But collectively we experience amazing atrocities, disasters and crimes.

But I also join the nonreligious posters: who cares?

From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED.

But how do you deal with natural evil?
Far more people have died prematurely from disease than from all the wars in human history combined.

And I think that part of the reason wealth and prosperity lead to anger at the notion of a benevolent god is the realization of how easy it would be to prevent some natural evils.
Imagine if, somewhere amidst the beatitudes, Christ had told his followers to boil their water before they drank it. He could have saved millions of lives (many of them children).

For the sake of consistency, here is James Wood on the Incarnation:

"I could not continue to describe this God in the ways my tradition insisted I should, and Jesus's softening of Yahweh's austere awfulness in some ways only aggravated the problem. The Old Testament God, at least, shrinks from attributes, and a vast gulf must separate his unspeakability from our understanding. But Jesus, through his incarnation of God, takes on the very qualities that cannot be attributed to his father: merciful, loving, wise. Above all, he intervenes: he performs miracles, he raises the dead, he is himself raised, and he promises intercession -- his own, and the Holy Spirit's. Christ is nothing if not describable. This is the central joy for Christians. Yet the Creator he incarnates is not describable in terms that would make any sense of his providential creation and control of the world. Christ, to me, seems orphaned of the very patrilineage that constitutes his bold appeal. He incarnates what cannot be incarnated. What use is his sonship if his father is lost? To be blunt: to worship Christ, it seemed to me, was to worship the bastard child (in the strict sense of the word) of an absolute bastard (in the vernacular sense of the word). And never forget that Christ came and nothing changed: salvation had to be pushed on again, infinitely deferred to a Second Coming."

A thoughtful post by Douthat. He writes:

"I've always thought that how you respond to the Christian argument about free will and the necessity of evil depends in large part on how you respond intuitively to the experience of human existence - or whether you regard human life chiefly as "a business of evenly rationed suffering,"

I don't think this is right. It's true for Douthat personally, but not in general. There are a lot of Christians who are very, very obsessed with earthly injustice, and a lot of irreligious people who are perfectly satisfied with life and existence. And as long as we're going into psychological motivations about why people are Christians, here's my own pet theory: what people really want in their lives are purpose and meaning, and the shittier their lives are, the more they need to hold on to some meaning for their existence, any meaning. For most, that means the comforting balm of religion or some equivalent escape mechanism. The religious belief is being driven by emotional need for comfort.

For materially wealthy people like Douthat and me, it's different. People still want the same thing, meaning; but because they're materially comfortable, the escape mechanism of religion isn't so important anymore, and they can find meaning in other nonreligious ways. We also have access to a lot more information and power, not least exposure to other religions and belief systems--we have the luxury to pick and choose our beliefs like consumers picking up cereal from the supermarket, buying whichever ones speak the most to us. Christianity itself is sort of a red herring here, because it's not an either/or between Christian theology and atheism anymore. There's a ton of New Age, Eastern, mystical, spiritual etc. stuff floating around out there. So I could believe in the essential goodness of the universe but still adhere to Wicca; or believe in the essential horror of the universe and be a Buddhist. It's no surprise that orthodox Christianity has declined when faced with this assault of new belief systems (especially the faith in Science)--how could it not? But it's really not the case that pessimists about life will turn to atheism and optimists about life turn to Christianity/religion.

P.S. As to attempted solutions of the problem of evil, it's interesting that your reader brings up Dr. Pangloss' "best of all possible worlds." In fact it logically follows from the traditional Christian conception of God that we must live in the best/most good of all possible worlds (God couldn't have created an inferior world). So a true theodicy needs to do more than just justify the bare existence of some evil of suffering, but also must actively assert that the world we live in can't be improved in any way--it's got to be Panglossian (i.e. see Douthat's "own essentially positive response to the universe, and my accompanying assent to the logic of the Christian position concerning its design"). Whether you think that's self-evidently absurd or not, well that's up to you.

Mark H. writes:

In that sense, the gospel of Christ and Christ crucified is the only explanation of why a good God would permit evil and suffering. He does so not because the logic of free will mandates it, but rather because he is able to turn all things -- even suffering -- to good.

...Provided, of course, that the sufferers "come unto Him." Right? By "turn to good" one assumes you mean people who suffer get resurrected in the end. No one's looking for their own suffering to be made into a nice morality tale after all.

I'm shocked that in 2 comments threads, nobody has mentioned the correlation between material success and education level, and the correlation between education level and lack of belief.

Overwhelmingly, the poorest people get the shaft in life, and those people are also far less likely to have an advanced education.

And the more advanced your education is, the more likely you are to be a nonbeliever. Biological scientists are at the top, of course. But nonbelief grows as education level increases.

So what is really going on here is simply that many people who are more intelligent, and/or who are exposed to the intellectual arguments against organized religion, reject it. Those who get the shaft in life are, on average, not as likely to have run into such arguments or to have had the educational background to fully appreciate their power.

Dilan Esper:

you assumption that "biological scientists" are very
"educated" is funny. Given the nature of our current educational establishment (where I work) there is no correlation whatsoever between advanced scientific training and what I consider real education, the kind that teaches how to think critically about serious human questions. And don't get me started about the "ideological" departments (english, psicology etc)

There is only one thing worse that having no education: having a shallow education and considering oneself smarter than the poor slobs who did not go to college. Do you remember what Jesus said about "educated" people?

"From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED."

Of course there is no reason for an omnipotent god to be limited by logic.

Dear Carlo,

I very much agree with the notion that biologists are somehow more educated beyond their narrow area of technical expertise is quite funny. Dawkins is a wonderful example, with his historical howlers, wrong-headed application of biological concepts to cultural and religious development, and his noisy and proud ignorance of the basics of Christian theology that make a know-it-all sophomore seem humble and teachable by comparison (case in point, his assertion that substitutionary attonement is the only reason for the incarnation, rather than one theological formulation out of many, and far from the most popular). For the love of Darwin and all his works, I wish atheists would stop making the job of Christian apologists so embarrasingly easy by treating Dawkins as something other than the liability and embarrasment he is. Our side needs better sparing partners.

David says: "Dawkins is a wonderful example, with his historical howlers, wrong-headed application of biological concepts to cultural and religious development, and his noisy and proud ignorance of the basics of Christian theology that make a know-it-all sophomore seem humble and teachable by comparison (case in point, his assertion that substitutionary attonement is the only reason for the incarnation, rather than one theological formulation out of many, and far from the most popular). For the love of Darwin and all his works, I wish atheists would stop making the job of Christian apologists so embarrasingly easy by treating Dawkins as something other than the liability and embarrasment he is. Our side needs better sparing partners."

Or at least better spelling teachers.

Dawkins seems to do well enough for someone who is just whacking away at the wackaloons part-time.

Don't let the bed-demons bite,

Moe

Don't take it for granted that "Christianity" as such accepts the idea of true free will. There are plenty of Christianities that have taught a doctrine of predestination. The Puritans were big on this.

Anyone who is intellectually honest admits that the notions of free will and of the absolute omnipotence and omniscience of God are logically incompatible: no one can "freely" choose to do something other than those things that God has eternally "known" he was going to do. All attempts to explain this away founder in the same way that logical "proofs" of God's existence always founder. They only convince those who are already convinced.

Re: Of course there is no reason for an omnipotent god to be limited by logic.


we went through this on another thread. In classical Christian theology at least God is indeed limited by logic-- not because logic is greater than God, but because God's nature is logical and God does not act counter to himself.

David you wite:

No one's looking for their own suffering to be made into a nice morality tale after all.


But who is suggesting that it be a "nice morality tale"? I'm certainly not. You are closed to God, that's all. But not perhaps as much as you think you are.

Thanks JonF ... I hadn't heard that before and it is an interesting argument.

Dilan - to piggyback slightly on Carlo's post, I don't buy the idea that "more advanced education" applies primarily to scientists, much less those in biological sciences. Maybe this is a variation of the idea that the slackers are English majors, the engineering students are the smartest, blah blah. It is certainly dismissive of so many disciplines and paths to knowledge.

I think the real correlation with nonbelief, since it does tend toward those in science, is that those who are narrowly focused on the physical, the natural world, do not see anything else. This question, which elicits so many thoughtful responses on all sides, is really in the realm of poets and philosphers, isn't it?

Another thing. I do not think Dawkins, or you, can accept a world where the ignorant and meek can know something you don't know.

"From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED."

I'd like to know what definition of "good" you're using that requires the existence of evil in order to exist itself (bonus points if you can explain why such rampant and intense evil as we see in the world is necessary). I also like how you beg the question by saying that we can't need redemption without sinning, then smuggle in the premise that we have to need to be redeemed, and conclude that therefore sin is necessary so that God can satisfy his manipulative, sadistic, masturbatory urges (because, really, what could possibly motivate a perfect being to do anything other than sit around and contemplate its own perfection?). I can almost hear him saying to me, "I love you, you worthless piece of shit."

Thanks for the laugh!

I think the real correlation with nonbelief, since it does tend toward those in science, is that those who are narrowly focused on the physical, the natural world, do not see anything else.

Actually, it's something else, though you folks will never admit it in a million years.

Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion. Basically, this is the area in which organized religions, including Christianity, made the most egregious ignorant and disproven claims over the years.

Thus, a biological scientist knows that what he or she sees in fieldwork is explicable by some now well-established theories about inherited characteristics and the origin of species. That biologist is likely to have a very low opinion of the truth value of claims made by religious Christians based on scripture and pastoral authority, because that biologist is acutely aware of how many people made egregiously false and ignorant claims about the origin of species and inherited characteristics in the past.

Similarly, an astronomer who studies dark energy and cosmology is not likely to have a very high opinion of intellectual traditions that simply got everything wrong, historically.

One of the things I don't think you guys get is that one of the most telling indicators of whether your religious beliefs are true or not is whether the claims advanced on its behalf over the course of history are true. Not simply because a book that is false about one thing is likely to be false about other things, though that is true, but because the very nature of the perfect and good God you posit would never put out false information and mislead Her beloved subjects, created in Her image, for centuries.

If you want to go around claiming Christianity is the one true faith, you aren't simply allowed to wall off your own personal brand of contemporary Christianity from all the false claims made by your forebears in the faith. You have to show why the claims you make should ever be believed coming on the heels of 2,000 years of dreadfully false claims. And natural scientists are more acutely aware of that history of false claims and how they impacted their own disciplines.

Re: And the more advanced your education is, the more likely you are to be a nonbeliever. Biological scientists are at the top, of course. But nonbelief grows as education level increases.

Is this a function of education or a function of income? Comfortable material circumstances seem to put a damper on religious belief too. Also, can you document that non-belief is highest among biologists (as opposed to other disciplines)?

Re: you assumption that "biological scientists" are very "educated" is funny.

Anyone who completes a PhD program in the sciences is educated. We might criticize the breadth of their education since it's possible they are only well-educated in a single field, but I don't think you can deny that a biologist is well educated in biology, a mathematician in math, etc.

Re: Thanks JonF ... I hadn't heard that before and it is an interesting argument.

Gully, medieval theologians (who must have had too much time on their hands) came up with all sorts of arguments about things God cannot do, because they would violate his nature. For example, God cannot create another God because it's God's nature to be both unique and uncreated.

Re: Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion.

Not about religion per se, but about Fundamentalist claims that certain myths (e.g., the creation myth) must be literally true. There is a certain smug attitude among some atheists that if they can prove that Genesis did not happen they have somehow overthrown all of Christianity. That's not even remotely true.

Re: you aren't simply allowed to wall off your own personal brand of contemporary Christianity from all the false claims made by your forebears in the faith.

Oh, bullshit! That like saying that if you vote Democratic today you are reaffirming the segregationism and racism of the 19th century Democratic party. It's a logical fallacy on so many levels that I'm not going to bother to go into it further.

Re: You have to show why the claims you make should ever be believed coming on the heels of 2,000 years of dreadfully false claims.

Scientists once doubted the existence of meteorites, "proved" that the Earth can only be a few hundred thousand years old, saw nothing amiss with the notion of something traveling faster than life, and laughed to scorn the guy who proposed continental drift. Should we therefore reject modern science because mistakes were made in the past?

Dilan,

Psychologists and anthropologists have lower rates of belief than biologists. I don't think anyone would claim either of those disciplines are particularly 'scientific'. Much of psychology is glorified silliness, and I think it's telling that these are the people most likely to be atheists.

I'm a graduate student in plant ecology and nothing I've learned in the biological sciences gives me reason to question the central _theological_ doctrines of the Christian faith. Those doctrines which I do question, I question on other grounds (for example, I think that the problem of evil requires the devil to be a greater and more powerful force than orthodox Christianity has allowed him). There are some things like the Fall and the creation of the world that I need to interpret in ways that are conconant with the reality of biological evolution, and in some areas I have fairly heterodox views on those questions. But I have no reason, from the biological sciences, to question things like the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc. I believe in (most of) the Christian claims about _faith_ and _morals_, not about how the earth and human life came into being.

I don't find the argument from free will satisfactory at all. It doesn't deal with earthquakes and natural disasters. It also doesn't deal with disease and other natural misfortunes, particularly when those affected are innocent infants.

Also, it doesn't entirely justify why the material conditions of the world are such that a split-second distraction by a perfectly good human being could very well lead to the suffering of many perfectly good human beings. Sure, free will requires the ability to engage in intentionally evil behavior towards others. But does free will necessarily require unintentional harm to others?

A much better answer to the problem of evil is that God is not omnipotent. Better answer yet: God is not omnipotent, and he is not the creator of the universe: God is with you in your indignation about the evils that befall your loved ones and yourself. (When it comes to observing evil in the world, indignation strikes me as a moral response, and contempt for such indignation strikes me as a callous attitude.)

Another answer to the problem of evil is "God is a writer and the creation is his narrative." One may change this to "God is a dreamer and the creation is his dream" or "God is a dancer and the creation is his dance." Then God is not really aware of the "reality" of the suffering some among us experience.

The Christian story of incarnation makes absolutely no sense to me as an explanation for the problem of evil: God permits evil so that he can send his son to experience that evil and so redeem the sinners who sin against his arbitrary design?

I share Ross's interest in why it is mostly people of a certain social standing that rail against God. There may be some very deep sociological (or psychological) reasons why this is the case, or it may be that the reason we observe that phenomenon is that it is only people of a certain social standing who have a public voice. But explaining the phenomenon is not the same as explaining it away. Wood's essay has merit, and tempting though it may be for a Christian thinker to think only about why it is people like Wood who write what he wrote, it would be better to take his ideas rather seriously and to respond to them.

How do Christian thinkers really explain why God permits natural evil and (in the Bible) even commands evil to befall human beings?

Dear Dilan,

Your write:

'Actually, it's something else, though you folks will never admit it in a million years.

Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion. Basically, this is the area in which organized religions, including Christianity, made the most egregious ignorant and disproven claims over the years."


It seems to me the rejoinder to this is obvious and devastating, that the history of science has also advanced egregiously false claims and ways of viewing the world, among the worst, scientific racism. Once upon a time less than 50 years ago people who claimed to be working off of the scientific method justified forced sterilization, colonialism and imperialism and even suggested mass murder as acceptable ways of dealing with racial inferiors. In this country alone forced sterilization, immigration restrictions and the denial of social services to the poor were predicated on scientific arguments, and scientists often railed against the sentimentality of religious objections. You might want to look into the case of Dr. James Watson of Noble prize fame to get a sense of how this still plays out over half a century after we've seen what happens when science and racism form an iron ring. See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html for starters... Given that this is someone at the absolute height of scientific achievement how could this happen?

The history of science is a two edged sword, and scientists have often conducted themselves with deep dishonor (Dr. Freud who wrote off the trauma of rape and abuse among his female patients as a kind of fantasy is another example of an atheist/scientist whose theories cast a pall over the lives of millions). If reason honed in the most rigorous of environments can produce these results, by your own showing it seems we should be as suspicious of science as of religion. Would it be too much to ask that we judge science and religion based upon rational criteria that take into account that appalling failures seem to be a design feature of humanity?

You also write:

Not simply because a book that is false about one thing is likely to be false about other things, though that is true, but because the very nature of the perfect and good God you posit would never put out false information and mislead Her beloved subjects, created in Her image, for centuries.

This does not seem terribly sophisticated. Christians, for example, have not been biblical literalists for most of their history. Theology is complicated and Christian theologians and many believers have understood that we grow in our knowledge of God over time, that we see things more clearly. God has not misled us, but our capacity to understand God, nourished by grace and historical experience has grown over time. I don't ask scientists to constantly do mea culpas over every vivisection in the Hellenistic world, or over the occasional appalling statement by a Darwin or even the whole pernicious corpus of Freud's work (or Marx - given that he saw himself as a "scientist" he and his works could also as fairly be lumped into the "failure of science" as all the obscurantist theologians of the past 20 centuries, who've had far lower body counts for their work in 20 centuries than scientific visions of society - and scientific means to reach those visions - have produced in little over one century).

John F. wrote:
Re: Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion.

Not about religion per se, but about Fundamentalist claims that certain myths (e.g., the creation myth) must be literally true. There is a certain smug attitude among some atheists that if they can prove that Genesis did not happen they have somehow overthrown all of Christianity. That's not even remotely true.

You're picking your battles poorly, John. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians who think that the Bible stands or falls, exactly as it is written, as a whole. Against those Christians, such arguments are both sufficient and necessary. It so happens that you and I both think that those who firmly believe in Biblical literalism/inerrancy are loony, but to say that the arguments we atheists bring to bear against them must be the same arguments we bring against you is simply a mistake on your part.

So here's an item from the history pages which might grab your attention a little more forcefully: the Hebrews stole the sky god El from the Caananite pantheon, in much the same way that the Romans stole the gods of the Greeks. Early Hebrews were henotheistic; they believed in many gods, but only one of them (specifically, El) was worthy of worship. As time went on, El's little brother Baal, god of storms, became increasingly demonized until his name became synonymous with that of the devil himself.

I don't know about you, but a religion that steals its mythology from another culture and mutates it beyond recognition, then claims to have privileged access to metaphysical truth, isn't exactly reliable in my book.

John F. wrote:
Re: you aren't simply allowed to wall off your own personal brand of contemporary Christianity from all the false claims made by your forebears in the faith.

Oh, bullshit! That like saying that if you vote Democratic today you are reaffirming the segregationism and racism of the 19th century Democratic party. It's a logical fallacy on so many levels that I'm not going to bother to go into it further.

Wait, are you saying that religious doctrines, like the policies of a political party, depend solely on who's in charge at the time? (For the record, I agree with you, I just didn't think it would be so easy to get you to concede the point.) While people may certainly choose to vote for parties, what they are ultimately voting for is an individual who advocates particular policies, and their vote is cast in support of those matters of policy, not the policies of those who ran on the same ticket earlier. Saying that you've got the true poop, but all the guys who carried the torch before you were mistaken in this, that, and the other ways that you disagree with them, basically amounts to you creating a new religion out of whole cloth and being the same religion in name only. Politics can work this way, but everyone admits that it is a fallible and malleable system, created by humans and for humans on Earth, which has plenty of things still wrong with it and is no guide whatsoever to fundamental truths of the Universe. Unless you want to claim that religion also works this way, your analogy simply doesn't hold water.

John F. wrote:
Re: You have to show why the claims you make should ever be believed coming on the heels of 2,000 years of dreadfully false claims.

Scientists once doubted the existence of meteorites, "proved" that the Earth can only be a few hundred thousand years old, saw nothing amiss with the notion of something traveling faster than life, and laughed to scorn the guy who proposed continental drift. Should we therefore reject modern science because mistakes were made in the past?

No, but we should reject the mistaken claims of those previous scientists. Science is about being skeptical, coming up with testable and falsifiable hypotheses, and continuously checking those hypotheses against reality via experimentation. If, on the other hand, you claim that your religion is divinely inspired, then you have no need for experiment, no use for revision, and precious little room to admit error. Science has built into it the capacity for revision when necessary - if you want your religion to be comparable to science so that your analogy can work, then your religion must also have this capacity. But then you have the dilemma: if you have to revise your divinely inspired religious claims, that means either God lied to you, or men made it up.

@ David: Social Darwinism is based on a tragic and juvenile misunderstanding of Darwin's ideas. Nature, red in tooth and claw, is quite frankly an appalling source for ethics or public policy. As for science's fallibility, see my response to John F. on the same point. With scientific claims, until or unless we get a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, science does not stand or fall as a whole. The empirical claims of scientists are discrete elements which can be mixed and matched into various internally consistent sets. Actually, the empirical claims of religions are also discrete elements which can be mixed and matched into various internally consistent sets, though they are often organized into inconsistent sets, or changed one element at a time until the final product is no longer recognizable as the original. Your point about growing in understanding God would be fine, if humanity had discovered God independently and he turned out to be a coy and elusive cuss, but if God meant to lay out a divinely inspired work and system of thought, why in all of creation couldn't it have been in plain, easy-to-understand, scientifically accurate language? As far as I can see, there is no such reason. It's not like these people didn't have time to write it all down, they wrote plenty. I, for one, think the Bible could have used much more convincing science, and much less child-eating bears & fig-hating prophets.

David writes: "I don't ask scientists to constantly do mea culpas over every vivisection in the Hellenistic world, or over the occasional appalling statement by a Darwin or even the whole pernicious corpus of Freud's work (or Marx - given that he saw himself as a "scientist" he and his works could also as fairly be lumped into the "failure of science" as all the obscurantist theologians of the past 20 centuries, who've had far lower body counts for their work in 20 centuries than scientific visions of society - and scientific means to reach those visions - have produced in little over one century)."

This is just silly. There's nothing "scientific" about Marxism, which is simply a corruption of religion. It borrows the future utopia from Christianity, and it's no accident that, like Christianity, it often leads to coercive, autocratic states when put into practice.

And it's cute that David is so concerned about the damage done to women by Freud's theories when so much of the New Testament was written by Paul, a sadistic misogynist who barely regarded women as human beings.

Re: The fact of the matter is that there are Christians who think that the Bible stands or falls, exactly as it is written, as a whole.

Yes, there are. Did I say otherwise? However those Christians are in the minority (albeit they sometiems seem like a pretty raucous minority). And yes, you have my blessing to bludgeon them with Darwin. But don't imagine for one minute that you've overthrown all Christianity in doing so, let alone mounted any sort of challenge against theism in general.

Re: the Hebrews stole the sky god El from the Caananite pantheon

Um, no. The Hebrews WERE Caananites. The Hebrew language is a direct decendent of Old Caananite (as is Phoenician/Punic), as much so as modern Greek is from Byzantine Greek. One can hardly claim they stole their god from themselves you know.

Re: in much the same way that the Romans stole the gods of the Greeks.

OK, "Stealing" is too strong a word since it implies that one has deprived the original owner of the use and possession of an object. That's hardly the case with gods (and since when do gods have owners?) The Greeks went right on worshipping their gods completely unaffected by Roman borrowings. Also, while the romans did borrow (the correct term) some gods, notably Apollo and Bacchus, others of their gods are the *same* gods as the Greek ones, othen with cognate names (Jupiter = Zeus Pater; Vesta = Hestia; Mars = Ares; Aurora = Eos etc.). The Greek and Romans after all had common Indoeuropean roots. And in some other cases (e.g., Minerva) the Romans borrowed a god from the Etruscans then identified him/her with a Greek one. Paganism in late antiquity very much suscribed to the "all gods are one god" theory, a belief that while poeple called the gods different names, and told different stories about them, they were really the same, and you simply had to figure out who was who across cultures.

Re: Wait, are you saying that religious doctrines, like the policies of a political party, depend solely on who's in charge at the time?

???
Where did you get that? But come now and answer my question: if it's appropriate to use an ad hominem argument here (in this case an argument of association with people from the past, dead people even) when seeking to debunk religion, why isn't it OK to do so when trying to defeat a political movement-- or anything else? As I noted, your argument was so profoundly invalid that it was absurd. Aristotle would have laughed you out of the Lyceum if that's the limit of your logical capabilities.

Re: While people may certainly choose to vote for parties, what they are ultimately voting for is an individual who advocates particular policies, and their vote is cast in support of those matters of policy, not the policies of those who ran on the same ticket earlier.

It's more complicated than that. One may decide to vote for a candidate whom one thinks is wrong on this or that issue, but right on some others. FDR was not a strong supporter of civil rights, but he was still better in most ways than his challengers. In regards to religions, they may be conduits of divine grace, but they are also liable to the follies and sins of the people who comprise them. Few if any questioned would suggest otherwise (see: Renaissance popes, among many, many others). Yes, religious leaders (and religious followers) have made some mistakes and committed some sins. But if infallibility and impeccability is your standard then you're going to be awfully disappointed in this world.

Re: No, but we should reject the mistaken claims of those previous scientists.

Of course! And where religious have erred (especially on tangential matters that are not truly germane to their subject, like the origin of life or the age of the Earth) we should reject that too. But rejecting one thing does not mean rejecting everything. (see: old saying about babies and bathwater).

Re: But then you have the dilemma: if you have to revise your divinely inspired religious claims, that means either God lied to you, or men made it up.

There's another alternative: people were wrong. IMO, that's the most preferrable alternative, unless you have evidence of deliberate malfeasance. Also, again, these errors were about very marginal issues, places where popes and imams and theologians should never have been staking any claims in the first place.

Dear D and MLandJ,

For D, the whole point of positing that God communicated with/revealed Himself to humanity in myths, stories, etc. instead of scientifically accurate information is to preserve our free will and to meet humanity where it was at. A scientifically accurate way of communicating with us 30+ centuries ago would have been incomprehensible to primitive humanity, yet there are parts of our condition that haven't changed, in terms of some key problems - even if the cultural forms and technological development vary hugely.

And MLandJ, for generations Marxism was regarded by many highly educated people (the kind whose weight of numbers on their side has been used by some on these forums as proof of the superiority of atheism) as scientific. Sorry it was junk science, but gosh, there is an awful lot of that when you know the history of science. And you are simply wrong on the Apostle Paul. The scholarship on the history of early Christianity currently is much clearer on the progressive role of Christianity in changing for the better attitudes for women given the attitudes of the day. But that's something for a historian who gets context, so don't trouble yourself with it.

Besides, given your assurance that atheist and scientifically informed perspectives are so ipso facto superior to religious perspectives, the wonder is not that Paul was "sadistic" but rather that someone free of religious prejudice like Freud was a misogynist who did real damage. And the interesting thing is how he was taken all the more seriously because of his freedom from prejudice.

But it is even more cute that whenever those acting out of atheism and their understanding of science turn out, with even less excuse than poor benighted believers in sky fairies to have made the last century a real hell on earth, you have to deny them their place in the atheist club. No, towarish, all the murderous scientific atheists of Marxism like the Jacobins they admired are the true children of the enlightenment and of science. If it is any comfort I see the same thing among Protestant fundies all the time - so and so wasn't a "real Christian" because he/she did awful things. But then, part of the charm of fundamentalism, be it atheistic or religious, are the really fantastic symmetries in style and method.

David replies: "Sorry it was junk science, but gosh, there is an awful lot of that when you know the history of science."

Of course it's in the nature of science to correct itself, something religion doesn't do much of - which is why we still have so-called "modern" Christians here on this very blog still engaged in bashing homosexuality as an "abomination" and applauding laws against it. And at least science has produced very tangible results - without the benefits of science this planet would certainly not be able to support the 6 billion plus that now inhabit it.

Science is a tool which can be used for good or bad purposes, obviously. I don't see anyone here arguing otherwise, and most of your bitching seems like straw-man creation, and some of it, like blaming Marxism on science, is just pure nonsense, no matter who might have believed it at one time. Fundies like to pretend that creationism is science, but that doesn't make it so. Marxism is much closer to religion, what with its utopian vision, its notion that history is pointing toward an inevitable end, its dogmas and schisms and personality cults, and so forth. Ask your fellow Christian Hector why he's so fond of it - his Christian sympathies line up perfectly with his Marxist ones.

LMandJ,

When you say that religion doesn't correct itself, you simply display your ignorance of contemporary religious diversity. And given that self-correcting science can have the Noble laureate that I posted about above-

Dr. James Watson of Noble prize fame to get a sense of how this still plays out over half a century after we've seen what happens when science and racism form an iron ring. See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html for starters...

Given Watson's attempt to resucitate scientific racism, or a Dawkins attempt to rehabilitate Soviet style persecution of those who would raise their children with faith with the calumny that it is child abuse, it seems to me that science's current track record for self-correction is questionable.

And we'll have to agree to disagree about Marxism - when a group claims to be scientific, is accepted by many intelligent people for a long period of time as being scientific (like the scientific racists of a century ago) then they are part of the scientific enterprise, even if rotten parts of it.

David writes: "And we'll have to agree to disagree about Marxism - when a group claims to be scientific, is accepted by many intelligent people for a long period of time as being scientific (like the scientific racists of a century ago) then they are part of the scientific enterprise, even if rotten parts of it."

If that's your standard then child molestation and female genital mutilation and slavery and torturing old women to death are a part of the religious enterprise. Tally ho!

It is, of course, a moronic standard, but you're welcome to it.

Dear MLandJ,

Yes, part of the misuse of religion. I've tried to be clear that religion as such is capable of corruption, as you in your own way have made crystal clear that atheism and the exaltation of science are no protection from the worst kinds of fideistic hubris. I don't see how one in good faith can deny that Marxists revolutionaries were atheists or that they believed they were engaged in science, but then I'll trust that anyone who knows the languages and histories of countries under state socialism will have no problem in drawing that conclusion.

But it really is time to go to work. Take care.

David

David writes: "I don't see how one in good faith can deny that Marxists revolutionaries were atheists or that they believed they were engaged in science, but then I'll trust that anyone who knows the languages and histories of countries under state socialism will have no problem in drawing that conclusion."

Of course they were atheists. So are many Buddhists. But if Buddhist monks committed violence it would be moronic to refer to it as "atheistic violence."

And while I know some Marxists claimed to have a scientfic basis for their beliefs, that claim falls apart under serious scrutiny, so why should you pretend to take it seriously? I'll make the comparison to creationism again and let it rest.

It seems to me the rejoinder to this is obvious and devastating, that the history of science has also advanced egregiously false claims and ways of viewing the world, among the worst, scientific racism.

Actually, that's no rejoinder at all, because science has a procedure to correct error. In contrast, if something is wrong in the Bible, there's no procedure for correction.

Dear Dilan,

It wasn't "science" that corrected scientific racism, it was cultural and political activists, including many religious people who were branded obscurantists because they opposed "obviously scientifically true" claims that certain races were inferior. (A good article on this is "Hopelessly Entangled in Nordic Presuppositions" by Sharon Leon in the Journal of Science and Allied Medicines, Vol. 59, no. 1, pp. 1-39 on US eugenics organizations). Yes, some scientists opposed scientific racism to be sure, but the theories and approaches of scientific racism were not discredited until after the results of Nazi scientific racism became widely known, and even then many of the racial scientists and their funding organizations were never called to account (Stefan Kuhl, The Nazi Connection is very good on this). And as my note on the Noble Laureate racist above indicated, the self-correction looks to be a bit wobbly, no?

Jews and Christians can "correct" what is "wrong" in the Bible by careful interpretation, and not assuming that it is all to be taken literally, a very, very old practice of Jewish and Christian exegetes. The procedures for correction vary from tradition to tradition, just as some sciences are better or worse at dealing with egregious offenses against human dignity (international psychological organizations did not deal very well at all with the perversions of Soviet psychiatry that was used to persecute dissidents for example, while the social sciences to some extent still are in thrall to Marxist "insights").

If we can stick to your point that the history of science discredits religion, why doesn't the sorry history of scientific error and criminality, which in less than one century has ammassed such a high body count on reason alone, not dent your faith in science?

Sincerely,

David

Re: In contrast, if something is wrong in the Bible, there's no procedure for correction.

Of course there is, as witness the fact that Christians have abandonned erroneous doctrines over the years. You need look no further than your wallet if you have a credit card for one example. Back in the 13th century Citibank and friends would have the Inquisition knocking on their doors for the sin and heresy of charging interest. Though come to think of it, might be nice if someone could put the fear of God in Citibank & Co.

Let me elaborate on that last comment. The way science works is that researchers look for data to confirm hypotheses. If a hypothesis is erroneous, it will eventually be corrected as additional data is received inconsistent with the hypothesis. Now in the meantime, were stupid policies advocated based on, e.g., eugenics? Sure. But that's because the scientific method does not control how science is used, and distinctions need to be made between things we are very sure of and which have been extensively tested (such as the state of knowledge now about various aspects of evolution) and relatively new hypotheses supported by limited data, such as eugenics in the early 20th century. But there's nothing wrong with science-- whatever the policymakers do, scientists gather more data and improve their working hypotheses over time.

In contrast, the general reaction of religious believers to something being proven wrong seems to be to simply declare that it was never that important, excise it from their beliefs, and continue to believe the rest of the religion. That process is not at all a reliable means of correcting error, primarily because it does nothing to address the fact that such errors undermine confidence in other, related hypothesis. In other words, the fact that the author of Genesis was totally wrong about the early days of the universe and of life on earth is a fact that should influence how one views other conclusions of that author, such as that there is one God and that "He" created the universe. That was part of the same story as the stuff that was proven false.

And yet the religious believer pretends that conclusion was not affected at all by what was proven false.

I can see WHY this is true-- religious believers desparately WANT to believe, and therefore they are going to "wall off" whatever gets proven false and believe the rest of the religion. But religious doctrines, like other claims, are interconnected. If one is really interested in seeking truth (rather than just making sure that one never gets to a point where one denies religious faith), one must, for every Christian or Judeo-Christian doctrine that was ever wrong, extensively inquire into what other doctrines are affected by that error, what authors are now less believable, and what traditions are less supported or unsupported as a result.

Science, therefore, can certainly be wrong, but has the best possible process for going from wrong to right. Religion, in contrast, has a process that will only randomly get you from wrong to right, because religious believers rule off the table any conclusions that might call their faith into question, even though this might be what the data is indicating.

Moe,

I'm a socialist, not a Marxist. Marx was a great thinker who was right about many things and wrong about many others, not least his atheism. I borrow what I think are the true aspects of Marxism, and reject what I think is false, just like I do with, say, feminism. I have a qualified sympathy for _some_ self-proclaimed Marxist regimes and an unqualified antipathy to some others- not all of the regimes that claimed to be Marxist were the same, politically or morally.

While pure Marxism is of course atheistic there were a fair number of religious people who borrowed some aspects of Marxist thinking and revolutionary politics into Christian socialism, Islamic socialism, etc. The Nicaraguans would be a good example.

I wouldn't call Marxism a part of 'science' because science is of its nature amoral and makes no claims about what would be good, right, or desirable- Marxism on the other hand has the ideal of a perfect society and considers some things to be good and others to be evil. It's a political philosophy, not a religion or a science.

Dilan, the Bible isn't the sole source of authority in Christianity. Sacred tradition is the other source, at least for Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Monophysites, and Nestorians (i.e. for about 70% of Christians). And sacred tradition is very much an evolving and, to a certain small extent, self correcting thing. The Catholic church admitted fault in the execution of St. Joan of Arc and exonerated her only about 30 years after they put her to death.

Dear Dilan,

It wasn't "science" that corrected scientific racism, it was cultural and political activists, including many religious people who were branded obscurantists because they opposed "obviously scientifically true" claims that certain races were inferior. (A good article on this is "Hopelessly Entangled in Nordic Presuppositions" by Sharon Leon in the Journal of Science and Allied Medicines, Vol. 59, no. 1, pp. 1-39 on US eugenics organizations). Yes, some scientists opposed scientific racism to be sure, but the theories and approaches of scientific racism were not discredited until after the results of Nazi scientific racism became widely known, and even then many of the racial scientists and their funding organizations were never called to account (Stefan Kuhl, The Nazi Connection is very good on this). And as my note on the Noble Laureate racist above indicated, the self-correction looks to be a bit wobbly, no?

Jews and Christians can "correct" what is "wrong" in the Bible by careful interpretation, and not assuming that it is all to be taken literally, a very, very old practice of Jewish and Christian exegetes. The procedures for correction vary from tradition to tradition, just as some sciences are better or worse at dealing with egregious offenses against human dignity (international psychological organizations did not deal very well at all with the perversions of Soviet psychiatry that were used to persecute dissidents for example, while the social sciences to some extent still are in thrall to Marxist "insights" in spite of the failures of state socialism).

If we can stick to your point that the history of science discredits religion, why doesn't the sorry history of scientific error and criminality, which in less than one century has ammassed such a high body count on reason alone, not dent your faith in science?

Sincerely,

David

Dear Dilan,

Also, might we not distinguish between different modes of inquiry? Studying and researching in the humanities is different than in the "hard sciences" - where we are primarily quantifying/examining things and natural processes, etc. Religion is a different kind of science, requiring different ways of knowing with its own methods of self-correction and development. Religious teachers/theologians and saints have the capacity to develop their own and other believers' (and even non-believers) understanding of faith just as scientists, using their own criteria of experiment and hypothesis can develop their disciplines. I think it would be fair to say that Martin Luther King contributed greatly to the development of religious and secular society, and he did this as a minister. So what is the real problem?

Can one of the believers address the issue of natural evil (raised by pedro and WillieStyle)? To me this has always been *the* central problem.

Dear Hector,

My only point about Marxism as a science, is that there were many who insisted that it was and who were taken seriously in that claim. Marx was a materialist and determinist and believed that he had found laws of history as valid for human social life. Tony Judt did a great essay on this for the New York Review of Books in Sept. 21, 2006 where he makes a pretty convincing case for why Marxism and Marxism-Leninism was taken too seriously by many atheists and scientists (and no, I'm not trying to show off, I'm in the midst of preparing an on-line class for postwar European history and have just finished teaching a course on 20th century Christianity so the bib references are right in front of me).

Dear Weichi,

I will do so by Monday on this thread, though Hector seems like he should be quite up to it. Sorry to wimp out, but again, theodicy is not the branch of theology that most engages me but I will give it a go.

David

Hector,

A quick correction - Judt said "foremost intellectuals" when referring to those attracted to Marxism - I wouldn't want to conflate those with "scientists" (which most scientists certainly are not if Dawkins is a fair sample) lest I be accused of another lie. And this is where I honestly thank you ML&J, since having a relentlessly hostile critic does provide added incentive for honesty and care in posting.

Czesc,

David

Dilan:

are you a biblical literalist? For most forms of Christianity (everybody except certain protestant traditions) the Bible is free of error only in revealing matters of faith and morals, and even those have to be interpreted hermeneutically (e.g. in the light of the Church's magisterium).

On anything that fall within the realm of natural reason, almost nobody (outside some protestant groups especially well represented in the US) claims that you should use the Bible as a source of information. It is not I who say this: if you have ever read Augustine or Aquinas (and everybody else after them) you should know it very well...

And if anybody claimed that in the past, later he was "corrected" by the simple "procedure" of accepting new empirical evidence (e.g. what science showed on matters of physics, biology etc.)

I want to go back to Ross's original question. To me the obvious reason why today's rich western people are so easily scandalized, say, by natural disasters
("natural evil") is that we are much less at ease with the whole notion of death that people used to be.

Without reducing in any way the great mystery of suffering, it is a fact that if one thinks of life on earth as a brief, painful preparation for a truer and eternal existence, then the "loss," say, of dying young in a tsunami (as opposed to living another 40 years and dying of heart disease) is comparatively less tragic than it is for somebody
who does not believe in the immortality of the soul.

In fact, you could argue that "do not kill" is the only commandment that everybody seems to agree upon, precisely because natural life is for us an ultimate value. The notion that, for instance, "impure acts" could do more serious and lasting damage to our personhood than physical death, is so completely foreign to us that most people would find it laughable.

David writes: "My only point about Marxism as a science, is that there were many who insisted that it was and who were taken seriously in that claim."

Yes. By themselves. Just as the creationists pretend to be scientists and are only taken seriously as scientists by themselves and the most uneducated yahoos. Thus William Dembski is driven away from Baylor, a conservative Baptist university, because the real scientists there would prefer not to be associated with his bullshit.

Scientologists even have a name that suggests their beliefs are scientific, so it must be so! At least that's the level of thinking David would have people swallow. It seems more than mildly stupid to me.

MLandJ,

The difference is that Marxism never was nearly as marginal to European and world politics as are scientology and creationism. It took a massive and sustained imperial commitment by the US to keep Marxist style regimes from sweeping through Europe in the postwar period. This suggests that secular intellectuals, particularly of an anti-religious bent in Europe, Latin America, Asia and Africa, aren’t always the sharpest knives in the drawer. Marxism wasn't discredited until after it produced collapse in most states where it was tried, including a country regarded up until its demise as one of the foremost powers in the world.

You are free to define Marxism as quasi religious pseudo science ML&J, but you are engaging in simply wrong-headed and inaccurate historical revisionism to assert that somehow state socialism was not regarded as a viable and even better alternative by the majority of secular intellectuals for much of the 20th century, atrocities and all. And sorry, that's not private judgment or mystification, that's simply the lay of the land in historical scholarship.

So feel free to pretend that it wasn't so, but here you are simply wrong, unless, you think you are a more knowledgeable historian than Tony Judt, my drugi? Stipulated, of course we recognize now how stoopid Marxism was, but the self-correcting nature of science or the intellectual chops of the vast majority of the secular intelligentsia (the kind who are on your side in the 2004 election I'm sure) did not kick in with powerful anti-Marxian until after Marxist pseudo-science had littered the world with the wreckage of over a score of countries and millions of lost lives.

David replies: "The difference is that Marxism never was nearly as marginal to European and world politics as are scientology and creationism."

That's an absurd objection, of course. Engels started yipping about Marxism as a science early on, long before it was any more significant than Scientology - which is an international concern itself now. The important thing is the validity of the claim that it has anything to do with science, not how successful it was

"This suggests that secular intellectuals, particularly of an anti-religious bent in Europe, Latin America, Asia and Africa, aren’t always the sharpest knives in the drawer. Marxism wasn't discredited until after it produced collapse in most states where it was tried, including a country regarded up until its demise as one of the foremost powers in the world."

You're diluting your own point. Fascism had a similar appeal to Catholic intellectuals for a time - so what? This has nothing to do with the conflation of Marxism and science that you're pushing, and that I'm deriding as simply silly.

Dear LM&J,

And here I speak from knowledge and experience since when I took your line that Marxism was really not so serious during a grad student conference at the U of Washington many moons ago I was dressed down (figuratively, please don't get all sexified in your commentary my desperate friend) by Donald Treadgold, one of the foremost Soviet specialists in our country. Treadgold insisted that I was being too flip and that Marxism was key to understanding 20th century intellectuals.

Sorry this doesn't fit into your secular fairy land where the secular rationalist are all strong and above average, but really it just was the case that most intellectuals who embraced atheism and progressive thought swooned for Stalin. Milosz, Raymond Aaron, Camus, etc. all thought they were on the losing side when they sought to challenge Marxism in the 1950s, and the terribly elite and secular student protesters of the 60s in Europe were of various inter-tribal hues of red. That is the left's bankrupt intellectual legacy, and Christian Democrats backed with lots of US cash and support had to work very hard to keep that tide from mucking up Western Europe. I would advise you to back off here, drug, because you are simply nattering on about something that you really do know nothing about.

Dear ML&J,

It would be dishonorable to engage in a drawn out battle of wits with so obviously unarmed an opponent. So let me be merciful and quick. Much of the defense of science as a superior way of knowledge preached by Dawkins and his ilk hinges upon its supposedly superior capacity for self-correction. The fact that Marxism was not discredited intellectually by those who claimed to practice "social science" until it collapsed politically seriously calls into question the claim that truly secular social scientists have any high road to knowledge.

As for the religious and fascism, I've not claimed immunity from stupidity or criminality because of religious inclinations or sensibilities. Let me go really slow, and I'll use simple syntax because I know it’s late, but yes, religious people can do and believe very bad things because they think God told them it would be nice. Secular people, who hate religion, can also do very bad things because reason tells them the world will be better if they break some eggs now (that's a euphamism for killing and other not nice things). Lots and lots of secular people believed state socialism was so reasonable that they should surrender their freedom and kill millions of their fellows because this was the way to advance rationalism and secularism. They didn't stop doing that because your mob presented them with compelling arguments - they stopped because the right and just enough centrists with the very occasional honorable leftist decided that Stalin land was not going to be fun to live in, and would be worth a great deal of blood and treasure to resist for as long as it took. Prayer, bullets, political wisdom and ordinary people did a hell of a lot more than the militantly secular left ever did to keep communism from killing many more millions of people, though I will also grant that those scientists who helped make atom bombs and neat ways of delivering them sure were swell to. I'm glad you want to identify Marxism with the worst swear words you know - that it was religious in origin - it means my side's victory is complete. But it doesn't change the fact that Marxist persuaded far too many secularist rubes of its scientific power and led them to do the kind of damage that Torquemada and company couldn't have pulled off in a thousand years.

Good night, my drug.

David appears to be a partisan of the Cold War and of course he's lost me here. (In case you are new to this blog, David, I'm on the political Left, and a socialist. It would be pretty off topic to start debating the pros and cons of capitalism vs. socialism here though, so I'm not going to start).

Dear Hector,

I'm not saying "mistakes weren't made" during the CW (Latin America is the anti-Eastern Europe/mirror image of the ugly side of American imperialism I know), or that non-Soviet style socialism doesn't have certain merits, that I purely out of prudential judgment am rather happy are not inflicted on our country. My only problem is when socialists think that gulags, anti-religious persecutions and genocides can help get us to a socialist happy place, and when they insist that they do have a science of society and all who object can dealt with summarily that I start to get fretful. I'm with JP II though in identifying the failures of state socialism with its false anthropology. But while I'm glad the Soviet Union is gone (no thanks to the vast majority of the militantly secular) I grant your point that there are worthy arguments to be had about state intervention, etc. But this is just a way of saying that you should not interpret my rhetoric above as implying a blanket disrespect for honorable leftists - Orwell and Cardinal Wyszynski would hardly have been thrilled by a lot of what I've just wrote. No offense meant, brother in Christ.

Be well and let's both pray for one another.

Czesc,

David

I guess I am bit troubled by the entire premise of this discussion, which seems to be that there is or should be an explanation as to why God allows suffering in the world. This assumption is more redolent of a Greek metaphysical modality of th