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Theodicy Revisited

06 Jun 2008 02:40 pm

A reader writes, amid a fascinating comments thread on this post:

From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED.

But as you point out the comparative facility of New Yorker writers to make the existence-of-evil argument, it is also grating for the equally well-off to make the free-will counter argument. I have led a pretty sheltered existence, and I've never known true evil, in my bones or in my gut. I have not known real hunger, or real pain. The oh so neat argument of free will seems so cold, so utterly irrelevant, when speaking with, say, a Holocaust survivor who has given up on God after experiencing the camps ... Of course you can point out that it is in that horror that other Holocaust survivors have found a reason to believe in God, but such considerations seem equally useless when talking not about the general presence of evil in the world, but about the precise and unique evils that one person has suffered.

The best Christian answer to the existence-of-evil argument seems to me to be, therefore, not the existence of free will (although, again, it is a perfectly valid response), but the much more concrete reality of Incarnation. God allowed evil to exist but He loves Man so much that He defeated it not just through the abstract (yet essential) gift of free will, but also by embracing His creature's condition and experiencing evil in the same ways.

Of course, from an atheist's perspective, this begs the question: to believe that God mitigated the presence of evil by experiencing and defeating it personally is to believe that God exists. But there is another way to put it: if it were possible to believe simultaneously in the existence of evil and in the existence of a benevolent God, then this benevolent God would have to be the kind of God who is willing to suffer evil alongside His creature and with the same intensity. This seems to me to be a very compelling answer.

The first point - that nobody wants to hear about how the existence of free will requires suffering from someone who hasn't suffered meaningfully themselves - is part of what interests me about the correlation between material comfort and complaints against God for permitting evil to flourish, the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike, and so forth. I've always thought that how you respond to the Christian argument about free will and the necessity of evil depends in large part on how you respond intuitively to the experience of human existence - whether you instinctively regard life, the universe and everything as a Very Good Thing with a certain amount of evil and corruption woven in, or whether you regard human life chiefly as "a business of evenly rationed suffering," as Wood puts it, with the constant possibility that the "truly unbearable" will suddenly consume everything that you hold dear. (Wood employs the evocative term "hellmouth" to describe this all-too-common worst-case scenario, a term he borrows from Norman Rush, who defined it as “the opening up of the mouth of hell right in front of you, without warning, through no fault of your own.”)

Like the commenter quoted above, I've never experienced anything that fits the "hellmouth" description - and this in turn makes me suspect that my own essentially positive response to the universe, and my accompanying assent to the logic of the Christian position concerning its design, is shaped in no small part by my sheltered and relatively comfortable existence. Which is why it's intuitively odd to me (though I can see all sorts of reasons why it might be so) to observe that in many cases the correlation seems to run the other way, and that my experience - in which comfort breeds acceptance of God's purposes, rather than rage at His putative injustice - is quite often the exception rather than the rule.

As to the broader point - that the Incarnation provides a better answer to the problem of evil than the argument from free will, even if the latter argument is valid - I'm basically in agreement, though I think it's important to note that the Incarnation isn't actually an "answer" in the way such things are typically understood. To say, in response to someone who asks "Why does God permit bad things to happen?," that "God permits suffering because He wants us to be free, and true freedom requires the possibility of sin and death," is to attempt a logical explanation of the phenomenon of suffering (and to invite further debate on the subject, at least up to a point). To respond to the same question, on the other hand, by saying that "God so loved the suffering world that He humbled himself to become Man and share in our suffering, even unto death on a cross," is something of a argument-stopper, since it addresses the problem only indirectly. Try as you might, you can't making God's willingess to "suffer evil alongside His creatures" into an explanation for why He allows evil to to exist in the first place. In effect, you're answering a question by presenting the questioner with a mystery - one whose relationship to the original problem can be intuited but not proved.

That being said, I suspect that more would-be believers troubled by the existence of evil are persuaded by the mystery of the Incarnation than by any more direct answer Christian theologians have mustered - which should tell us something about the nature of man, and perhaps of of God as well.

Comments (131)

I wonder if Ross (or any of the Christian apologists following these threads) has read Stanley Elkin's "The Living End."

One of the things that strikes some of us on "the other side" is how arbitrary and pointless much of the biblical notion of "good" is.

It seems to boil down to might makes right.

The problem with admitting that religion is basically a consensual hallucination is that the rest of us would really like you to stop using your hallucinations to influence political decisions.

Returning, for example, to the quote you posted the other day about meeting aborted fetuses in heaven. What does that mean? Is there going to be a long line of tiny little bodies screaming "you killed me!"? That's certainly the implication. But having read the posts and comments here for a while now, I still have no idea what the accepted concept of heaven is.

In heaven, do pro-life politicians also meet all the wanted children who never were born because an unwanted fetus was raised in its stead? Do they scream "you prevented me"? What about fertilized frozen embryo created in IVF? Do they scream "you abandoned me"?

Now, all of this would be very silly if it weren't so serious. But this comment: I suspect that more would-be believers troubled by the existence of evil are persuaded by the mystery of the Incarnation than by any more direct answer Christian theologians have mustered appears to me to concede that Christianity is at its core nothing but a big fantasy.

I must say that I think the Incarnation is an answer to the problem of evil, but a much better one than free will alone. Free will might explain why God permits evil to exist, but that's only half the story. For instance, it does not explain the purpose or end of suffering, and it does not give us much hope of overcoming suffering (we can't just be good in a fallen world and expect to avoid suffering).

This is why the Incarnation is key. It says that God not only shares in the suffering he permits, but that he does so in a way that transforms suffering into a redemptive experience -- not just in the person of Christ, but in all of us who become part of Christ through faith and baptism. Thus Paul says: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." (Col. 1:24).

In that sense, the gospel of Christ and Christ crucified is the only explanation of why a good God would permit evil and suffering. He does so not because the logic of free will mandates it, but rather because he is able to turn all things -- even suffering -- to good. In the same way, a father might let a child learning to ride a bike risk a fall, but only because he knows (1) that the fall won't kill the child and (2) that he will be there to help if one does occur.

Gosh, I checked comments on the original post back when there were 30 or so. Did not find a more interesting debate than usually results from a straightforward religious question on this site.

There are over 90 comments there now and I confess to not looking through them.

But it seems to me that as the capacity of homo sapiens' to organize and master manufacturing, transportation and such has grown so has our capacity for evil. I know the hideous cruelty that neolithic humans and early-civilization humans were capable of. But the organization and bureaucracy of torture and genicide constitutes a difference in kind not in degree.

The discomforts and tragedies of life were more common to persons living in earlier times. But we have the 'window' of TV that allows us to gaze on the stacked skulls of Cambodia. I imagine that rather few of our forebears had windows that opened onto killing fields.

So to me it's a wash. We individually live in very very fortunate circumstances. But collectively we experience amazing atrocities, disasters and crimes.

But I also join the nonreligious posters: who cares?

From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED.

But how do you deal with natural evil?
Far more people have died prematurely from disease than from all the wars in human history combined.

And I think that part of the reason wealth and prosperity lead to anger at the notion of a benevolent god is the realization of how easy it would be to prevent some natural evils.
Imagine if, somewhere amidst the beatitudes, Christ had told his followers to boil their water before they drank it. He could have saved millions of lives (many of them children).

For the sake of consistency, here is James Wood on the Incarnation:

"I could not continue to describe this God in the ways my tradition insisted I should, and Jesus's softening of Yahweh's austere awfulness in some ways only aggravated the problem. The Old Testament God, at least, shrinks from attributes, and a vast gulf must separate his unspeakability from our understanding. But Jesus, through his incarnation of God, takes on the very qualities that cannot be attributed to his father: merciful, loving, wise. Above all, he intervenes: he performs miracles, he raises the dead, he is himself raised, and he promises intercession -- his own, and the Holy Spirit's. Christ is nothing if not describable. This is the central joy for Christians. Yet the Creator he incarnates is not describable in terms that would make any sense of his providential creation and control of the world. Christ, to me, seems orphaned of the very patrilineage that constitutes his bold appeal. He incarnates what cannot be incarnated. What use is his sonship if his father is lost? To be blunt: to worship Christ, it seemed to me, was to worship the bastard child (in the strict sense of the word) of an absolute bastard (in the vernacular sense of the word). And never forget that Christ came and nothing changed: salvation had to be pushed on again, infinitely deferred to a Second Coming."

A thoughtful post by Douthat. He writes:

"I've always thought that how you respond to the Christian argument about free will and the necessity of evil depends in large part on how you respond intuitively to the experience of human existence - or whether you regard human life chiefly as "a business of evenly rationed suffering,"

I don't think this is right. It's true for Douthat personally, but not in general. There are a lot of Christians who are very, very obsessed with earthly injustice, and a lot of irreligious people who are perfectly satisfied with life and existence. And as long as we're going into psychological motivations about why people are Christians, here's my own pet theory: what people really want in their lives are purpose and meaning, and the shittier their lives are, the more they need to hold on to some meaning for their existence, any meaning. For most, that means the comforting balm of religion or some equivalent escape mechanism. The religious belief is being driven by emotional need for comfort.

For materially wealthy people like Douthat and me, it's different. People still want the same thing, meaning; but because they're materially comfortable, the escape mechanism of religion isn't so important anymore, and they can find meaning in other nonreligious ways. We also have access to a lot more information and power, not least exposure to other religions and belief systems--we have the luxury to pick and choose our beliefs like consumers picking up cereal from the supermarket, buying whichever ones speak the most to us. Christianity itself is sort of a red herring here, because it's not an either/or between Christian theology and atheism anymore. There's a ton of New Age, Eastern, mystical, spiritual etc. stuff floating around out there. So I could believe in the essential goodness of the universe but still adhere to Wicca; or believe in the essential horror of the universe and be a Buddhist. It's no surprise that orthodox Christianity has declined when faced with this assault of new belief systems (especially the faith in Science)--how could it not? But it's really not the case that pessimists about life will turn to atheism and optimists about life turn to Christianity/religion.

P.S. As to attempted solutions of the problem of evil, it's interesting that your reader brings up Dr. Pangloss' "best of all possible worlds." In fact it logically follows from the traditional Christian conception of God that we must live in the best/most good of all possible worlds (God couldn't have created an inferior world). So a true theodicy needs to do more than just justify the bare existence of some evil of suffering, but also must actively assert that the world we live in can't be improved in any way--it's got to be Panglossian (i.e. see Douthat's "own essentially positive response to the universe, and my accompanying assent to the logic of the Christian position concerning its design"). Whether you think that's self-evidently absurd or not, well that's up to you.

Mark H. writes:

In that sense, the gospel of Christ and Christ crucified is the only explanation of why a good God would permit evil and suffering. He does so not because the logic of free will mandates it, but rather because he is able to turn all things -- even suffering -- to good.

...Provided, of course, that the sufferers "come unto Him." Right? By "turn to good" one assumes you mean people who suffer get resurrected in the end. No one's looking for their own suffering to be made into a nice morality tale after all.

I'm shocked that in 2 comments threads, nobody has mentioned the correlation between material success and education level, and the correlation between education level and lack of belief.

Overwhelmingly, the poorest people get the shaft in life, and those people are also far less likely to have an advanced education.

And the more advanced your education is, the more likely you are to be a nonbeliever. Biological scientists are at the top, of course. But nonbelief grows as education level increases.

So what is really going on here is simply that many people who are more intelligent, and/or who are exposed to the intellectual arguments against organized religion, reject it. Those who get the shaft in life are, on average, not as likely to have run into such arguments or to have had the educational background to fully appreciate their power.

Dilan Esper:

you assumption that "biological scientists" are very
"educated" is funny. Given the nature of our current educational establishment (where I work) there is no correlation whatsoever between advanced scientific training and what I consider real education, the kind that teaches how to think critically about serious human questions. And don't get me started about the "ideological" departments (english, psicology etc)

There is only one thing worse that having no education: having a shallow education and considering oneself smarter than the poor slobs who did not go to college. Do you remember what Jesus said about "educated" people?

"From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED."

Of course there is no reason for an omnipotent god to be limited by logic.

Dear Carlo,

I very much agree with the notion that biologists are somehow more educated beyond their narrow area of technical expertise is quite funny. Dawkins is a wonderful example, with his historical howlers, wrong-headed application of biological concepts to cultural and religious development, and his noisy and proud ignorance of the basics of Christian theology that make a know-it-all sophomore seem humble and teachable by comparison (case in point, his assertion that substitutionary attonement is the only reason for the incarnation, rather than one theological formulation out of many, and far from the most popular). For the love of Darwin and all his works, I wish atheists would stop making the job of Christian apologists so embarrasingly easy by treating Dawkins as something other than the liability and embarrasment he is. Our side needs better sparing partners.

David says: "Dawkins is a wonderful example, with his historical howlers, wrong-headed application of biological concepts to cultural and religious development, and his noisy and proud ignorance of the basics of Christian theology that make a know-it-all sophomore seem humble and teachable by comparison (case in point, his assertion that substitutionary attonement is the only reason for the incarnation, rather than one theological formulation out of many, and far from the most popular). For the love of Darwin and all his works, I wish atheists would stop making the job of Christian apologists so embarrasingly easy by treating Dawkins as something other than the liability and embarrasment he is. Our side needs better sparing partners."

Or at least better spelling teachers.

Dawkins seems to do well enough for someone who is just whacking away at the wackaloons part-time.

Don't let the bed-demons bite,

Moe

Don't take it for granted that "Christianity" as such accepts the idea of true free will. There are plenty of Christianities that have taught a doctrine of predestination. The Puritans were big on this.

Anyone who is intellectually honest admits that the notions of free will and of the absolute omnipotence and omniscience of God are logically incompatible: no one can "freely" choose to do something other than those things that God has eternally "known" he was going to do. All attempts to explain this away founder in the same way that logical "proofs" of God's existence always founder. They only convince those who are already convinced.

Re: Of course there is no reason for an omnipotent god to be limited by logic.


we went through this on another thread. In classical Christian theology at least God is indeed limited by logic-- not because logic is greater than God, but because God's nature is logical and God does not act counter to himself.

David you wite:

No one's looking for their own suffering to be made into a nice morality tale after all.


But who is suggesting that it be a "nice morality tale"? I'm certainly not. You are closed to God, that's all. But not perhaps as much as you think you are.

Thanks JonF ... I hadn't heard that before and it is an interesting argument.

Dilan - to piggyback slightly on Carlo's post, I don't buy the idea that "more advanced education" applies primarily to scientists, much less those in biological sciences. Maybe this is a variation of the idea that the slackers are English majors, the engineering students are the smartest, blah blah. It is certainly dismissive of so many disciplines and paths to knowledge.

I think the real correlation with nonbelief, since it does tend toward those in science, is that those who are narrowly focused on the physical, the natural world, do not see anything else. This question, which elicits so many thoughtful responses on all sides, is really in the realm of poets and philosphers, isn't it?

Another thing. I do not think Dawkins, or you, can accept a world where the ignorant and meek can know something you don't know.

"From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED."

I'd like to know what definition of "good" you're using that requires the existence of evil in order to exist itself (bonus points if you can explain why such rampant and intense evil as we see in the world is necessary). I also like how you beg the question by saying that we can't need redemption without sinning, then smuggle in the premise that we have to need to be redeemed, and conclude that therefore sin is necessary so that God can satisfy his manipulative, sadistic, masturbatory urges (because, really, what could possibly motivate a perfect being to do anything other than sit around and contemplate its own perfection?). I can almost hear him saying to me, "I love you, you worthless piece of shit."

Thanks for the laugh!

I think the real correlation with nonbelief, since it does tend toward those in science, is that those who are narrowly focused on the physical, the natural world, do not see anything else.

Actually, it's something else, though you folks will never admit it in a million years.

Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion. Basically, this is the area in which organized religions, including Christianity, made the most egregious ignorant and disproven claims over the years.

Thus, a biological scientist knows that what he or she sees in fieldwork is explicable by some now well-established theories about inherited characteristics and the origin of species. That biologist is likely to have a very low opinion of the truth value of claims made by religious Christians based on scripture and pastoral authority, because that biologist is acutely aware of how many people made egregiously false and ignorant claims about the origin of species and inherited characteristics in the past.

Similarly, an astronomer who studies dark energy and cosmology is not likely to have a very high opinion of intellectual traditions that simply got everything wrong, historically.

One of the things I don't think you guys get is that one of the most telling indicators of whether your religious beliefs are true or not is whether the claims advanced on its behalf over the course of history are true. Not simply because a book that is false about one thing is likely to be false about other things, though that is true, but because the very nature of the perfect and good God you posit would never put out false information and mislead Her beloved subjects, created in Her image, for centuries.

If you want to go around claiming Christianity is the one true faith, you aren't simply allowed to wall off your own personal brand of contemporary Christianity from all the false claims made by your forebears in the faith. You have to show why the claims you make should ever be believed coming on the heels of 2,000 years of dreadfully false claims. And natural scientists are more acutely aware of that history of false claims and how they impacted their own disciplines.

Re: And the more advanced your education is, the more likely you are to be a nonbeliever. Biological scientists are at the top, of course. But nonbelief grows as education level increases.

Is this a function of education or a function of income? Comfortable material circumstances seem to put a damper on religious belief too. Also, can you document that non-belief is highest among biologists (as opposed to other disciplines)?

Re: you assumption that "biological scientists" are very "educated" is funny.

Anyone who completes a PhD program in the sciences is educated. We might criticize the breadth of their education since it's possible they are only well-educated in a single field, but I don't think you can deny that a biologist is well educated in biology, a mathematician in math, etc.

Re: Thanks JonF ... I hadn't heard that before and it is an interesting argument.

Gully, medieval theologians (who must have had too much time on their hands) came up with all sorts of arguments about things God cannot do, because they would violate his nature. For example, God cannot create another God because it's God's nature to be both unique and uncreated.

Re: Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion.

Not about religion per se, but about Fundamentalist claims that certain myths (e.g., the creation myth) must be literally true. There is a certain smug attitude among some atheists that if they can prove that Genesis did not happen they have somehow overthrown all of Christianity. That's not even remotely true.

Re: you aren't simply allowed to wall off your own personal brand of contemporary Christianity from all the false claims made by your forebears in the faith.

Oh, bullshit! That like saying that if you vote Democratic today you are reaffirming the segregationism and racism of the 19th century Democratic party. It's a logical fallacy on so many levels that I'm not going to bother to go into it further.

Re: You have to show why the claims you make should ever be believed coming on the heels of 2,000 years of dreadfully false claims.

Scientists once doubted the existence of meteorites, "proved" that the Earth can only be a few hundred thousand years old, saw nothing amiss with the notion of something traveling faster than life, and laughed to scorn the guy who proposed continental drift. Should we therefore reject modern science because mistakes were made in the past?

Dilan,

Psychologists and anthropologists have lower rates of belief than biologists. I don't think anyone would claim either of those disciplines are particularly 'scientific'. Much of psychology is glorified silliness, and I think it's telling that these are the people most likely to be atheists.

I'm a graduate student in plant ecology and nothing I've learned in the biological sciences gives me reason to question the central _theological_ doctrines of the Christian faith. Those doctrines which I do question, I question on other grounds (for example, I think that the problem of evil requires the devil to be a greater and more powerful force than orthodox Christianity has allowed him). There are some things like the Fall and the creation of the world that I need to interpret in ways that are conconant with the reality of biological evolution, and in some areas I have fairly heterodox views on those questions. But I have no reason, from the biological sciences, to question things like the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc. I believe in (most of) the Christian claims about _faith_ and _morals_, not about how the earth and human life came into being.

I don't find the argument from free will satisfactory at all. It doesn't deal with earthquakes and natural disasters. It also doesn't deal with disease and other natural misfortunes, particularly when those affected are innocent infants.

Also, it doesn't entirely justify why the material conditions of the world are such that a split-second distraction by a perfectly good human being could very well lead to the suffering of many perfectly good human beings. Sure, free will requires the ability to engage in intentionally evil behavior towards others. But does free will necessarily require unintentional harm to others?

A much better answer to the problem of evil is that God is not omnipotent. Better answer yet: God is not omnipotent, and he is not the creator of the universe: God is with you in your indignation about the evils that befall your loved ones and yourself. (When it comes to observing evil in the world, indignation strikes me as a moral response, and contempt for such indignation strikes me as a callous attitude.)

Another answer to the problem of evil is "God is a writer and the creation is his narrative." One may change this to "God is a dreamer and the creation is his dream" or "God is a dancer and the creation is his dance." Then God is not really aware of the "reality" of the suffering some among us experience.

The Christian story of incarnation makes absolutely no sense to me as an explanation for the problem of evil: God permits evil so that he can send his son to experience that evil and so redeem the sinners who sin against his arbitrary design?

I share Ross's interest in why it is mostly people of a certain social standing that rail against God. There may be some very deep sociological (or psychological) reasons why this is the case, or it may be that the reason we observe that phenomenon is that it is only people of a certain social standing who have a public voice. But explaining the phenomenon is not the same as explaining it away. Wood's essay has merit, and tempting though it may be for a Christian thinker to think only about why it is people like Wood who write what he wrote, it would be better to take his ideas rather seriously and to respond to them.

How do Christian thinkers really explain why God permits natural evil and (in the Bible) even commands evil to befall human beings?

Dear Dilan,

Your write:

'Actually, it's something else, though you folks will never admit it in a million years.

Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion. Basically, this is the area in which organized religions, including Christianity, made the most egregious ignorant and disproven claims over the years."


It seems to me the rejoinder to this is obvious and devastating, that the history of science has also advanced egregiously false claims and ways of viewing the world, among the worst, scientific racism. Once upon a time less than 50 years ago people who claimed to be working off of the scientific method justified forced sterilization, colonialism and imperialism and even suggested mass murder as acceptable ways of dealing with racial inferiors. In this country alone forced sterilization, immigration restrictions and the denial of social services to the poor were predicated on scientific arguments, and scientists often railed against the sentimentality of religious objections. You might want to look into the case of Dr. James Watson of Noble prize fame to get a sense of how this still plays out over half a century after we've seen what happens when science and racism form an iron ring. See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html for starters... Given that this is someone at the absolute height of scientific achievement how could this happen?

The history of science is a two edged sword, and scientists have often conducted themselves with deep dishonor (Dr. Freud who wrote off the trauma of rape and abuse among his female patients as a kind of fantasy is another example of an atheist/scientist whose theories cast a pall over the lives of millions). If reason honed in the most rigorous of environments can produce these results, by your own showing it seems we should be as suspicious of science as of religion. Would it be too much to ask that we judge science and religion based upon rational criteria that take into account that appalling failures seem to be a design feature of humanity?

You also write:

Not simply because a book that is false about one thing is likely to be false about other things, though that is true, but because the very nature of the perfect and good God you posit would never put out false information and mislead Her beloved subjects, created in Her image, for centuries.

This does not seem terribly sophisticated. Christians, for example, have not been biblical literalists for most of their history. Theology is complicated and Christian theologians and many believers have understood that we grow in our knowledge of God over time, that we see things more clearly. God has not misled us, but our capacity to understand God, nourished by grace and historical experience has grown over time. I don't ask scientists to constantly do mea culpas over every vivisection in the Hellenistic world, or over the occasional appalling statement by a Darwin or even the whole pernicious corpus of Freud's work (or Marx - given that he saw himself as a "scientist" he and his works could also as fairly be lumped into the "failure of science" as all the obscurantist theologians of the past 20 centuries, who've had far lower body counts for their work in 20 centuries than scientific visions of society - and scientific means to reach those visions - have produced in little over one century).

John F. wrote:
Re: Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion.

Not about religion per se, but about Fundamentalist claims that certain myths (e.g., the creation myth) must be literally true. There is a certain smug attitude among some atheists that if they can prove that Genesis did not happen they have somehow overthrown all of Christianity. That's not even remotely true.

You're picking your battles poorly, John. The fact of the matter is that there are Christians who think that the Bible stands or falls, exactly as it is written, as a whole. Against those Christians, such arguments are both sufficient and necessary. It so happens that you and I both think that those who firmly believe in Biblical literalism/inerrancy are loony, but to say that the arguments we atheists bring to bear against them must be the same arguments we bring against you is simply a mistake on your part.

So here's an item from the history pages which might grab your attention a little more forcefully: the Hebrews stole the sky god El from the Caananite pantheon, in much the same way that the Romans stole the gods of the Greeks. Early Hebrews were henotheistic; they believed in many gods, but only one of them (specifically, El) was worthy of worship. As time went on, El's little brother Baal, god of storms, became increasingly demonized until his name became synonymous with that of the devil himself.

I don't know about you, but a religion that steals its mythology from another culture and mutates it beyond recognition, then claims to have privileged access to metaphysical truth, isn't exactly reliable in my book.

John F. wrote:
Re: you aren't simply allowed to wall off your own personal brand of contemporary Christianity from all the false claims made by your forebears in the faith.

Oh, bullshit! That like saying that if you vote Democratic today you are reaffirming the segregationism and racism of the 19th century Democratic party. It's a logical fallacy on so many levels that I'm not going to bother to go into it further.

Wait, are you saying that religious doctrines, like the policies of a political party, depend solely on who's in charge at the time? (For the record, I agree with you, I just didn't think it would be so easy to get you to concede the point.) While people may certainly choose to vote for parties, what they are ultimately voting for is an individual who advocates particular policies, and their vote is cast in support of those matters of policy, not the policies of those who ran on the same ticket earlier. Saying that you've got the true poop, but all the guys who carried the torch before you were mistaken in this, that, and the other ways that you disagree with them, basically amounts to you creating a new religion out of whole cloth and being the same religion in name only. Politics can work this way, but everyone admits that it is a fallible and malleable system, created by humans and for humans on Earth, which has plenty of things still wrong with it and is no guide whatsoever to fundamental truths of the Universe. Unless you want to claim that religion also works this way, your analogy simply doesn't hold water.

John F. wrote:
Re: You have to show why the claims you make should ever be believed coming on the heels of 2,000 years of dreadfully false claims.

Scientists once doubted the existence of meteorites, "proved" that the Earth can only be a few hundred thousand years old, saw nothing amiss with the notion of something traveling faster than life, and laughed to scorn the guy who proposed continental drift. Should we therefore reject modern science because mistakes were made in the past?

No, but we should reject the mistaken claims of those previous scientists. Science is about being skeptical, coming up with testable and falsifiable hypotheses, and continuously checking those hypotheses against reality via experimentation. If, on the other hand, you claim that your religion is divinely inspired, then you have no need for experiment, no use for revision, and precious little room to admit error. Science has built into it the capacity for revision when necessary - if you want your religion to be comparable to science so that your analogy can work, then your religion must also have this capacity. But then you have the dilemma: if you have to revise your divinely inspired religious claims, that means either God lied to you, or men made it up.

@ David: Social Darwinism is based on a tragic and juvenile misunderstanding of Darwin's ideas. Nature, red in tooth and claw, is quite frankly an appalling source for ethics or public policy. As for science's fallibility, see my response to John F. on the same point. With scientific claims, until or unless we get a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, science does not stand or fall as a whole. The empirical claims of scientists are discrete elements which can be mixed and matched into various internally consistent sets. Actually, the empirical claims of religions are also discrete elements which can be mixed and matched into various internally consistent sets, though they are often organized into inconsistent sets, or changed one element at a time until the final product is no longer recognizable as the original. Your point about growing in understanding God would be fine, if humanity had discovered God independently and he turned out to be a coy and elusive cuss, but if God meant to lay out a divinely inspired work and system of thought, why in all of creation couldn't it have been in plain, easy-to-understand, scientifically accurate language? As far as I can see, there is no such reason. It's not like these people didn't have time to write it all down, they wrote plenty. I, for one, think the Bible could have used much more convincing science, and much less child-eating bears & fig-hating prophets.

David writes: "I don't ask scientists to constantly do mea culpas over every vivisection in the Hellenistic world, or over the occasional appalling statement by a Darwin or even the whole pernicious corpus of Freud's work (or Marx - given that he saw himself as a "scientist" he and his works could also as fairly be lumped into the "failure of science" as all the obscurantist theologians of the past 20 centuries, who've had far lower body counts for their work in 20 centuries than scientific visions of society - and scientific means to reach those visions - have produced in little over one century)."

This is just silly. There's nothing "scientific" about Marxism, which is simply a corruption of religion. It borrows the future utopia from Christianity, and it's no accident that, like Christianity, it often leads to coercive, autocratic states when put into practice.

And it's cute that David is so concerned about the damage done to women by Freud's theories when so much of the New Testament was written by Paul, a sadistic misogynist who barely regarded women as human beings.

Re: The fact of the matter is that there are Christians who think that the Bible stands or falls, exactly as it is written, as a whole.

Yes, there are. Did I say otherwise? However those Christians are in the minority (albeit they sometiems seem like a pretty raucous minority). And yes, you have my blessing to bludgeon them with Darwin. But don't imagine for one minute that you've overthrown all Christianity in doing so, let alone mounted any sort of challenge against theism in general.

Re: the Hebrews stole the sky god El from the Caananite pantheon

Um, no. The Hebrews WERE Caananites. The Hebrew language is a direct decendent of Old Caananite (as is Phoenician/Punic), as much so as modern Greek is from Byzantine Greek. One can hardly claim they stole their god from themselves you know.

Re: in much the same way that the Romans stole the gods of the Greeks.

OK, "Stealing" is too strong a word since it implies that one has deprived the original owner of the use and possession of an object. That's hardly the case with gods (and since when do gods have owners?) The Greeks went right on worshipping their gods completely unaffected by Roman borrowings. Also, while the romans did borrow (the correct term) some gods, notably Apollo and Bacchus, others of their gods are the *same* gods as the Greek ones, othen with cognate names (Jupiter = Zeus Pater; Vesta = Hestia; Mars = Ares; Aurora = Eos etc.). The Greek and Romans after all had common Indoeuropean roots. And in some other cases (e.g., Minerva) the Romans borrowed a god from the Etruscans then identified him/her with a Greek one. Paganism in late antiquity very much suscribed to the "all gods are one god" theory, a belief that while poeple called the gods different names, and told different stories about them, they were really the same, and you simply had to figure out who was who across cultures.

Re: Wait, are you saying that religious doctrines, like the policies of a political party, depend solely on who's in charge at the time?

???
Where did you get that? But come now and answer my question: if it's appropriate to use an ad hominem argument here (in this case an argument of association with people from the past, dead people even) when seeking to debunk religion, why isn't it OK to do so when trying to defeat a political movement-- or anything else? As I noted, your argument was so profoundly invalid that it was absurd. Aristotle would have laughed you out of the Lyceum if that's the limit of your logical capabilities.

Re: While people may certainly choose to vote for parties, what they are ultimately voting for is an individual who advocates particular policies, and their vote is cast in support of those matters of policy, not the policies of those who ran on the same ticket earlier.

It's more complicated than that. One may decide to vote for a candidate whom one thinks is wrong on this or that issue, but right on some others. FDR was not a strong supporter of civil rights, but he was still better in most ways than his challengers. In regards to religions, they may be conduits of divine grace, but they are also liable to the follies and sins of the people who comprise them. Few if any questioned would suggest otherwise (see: Renaissance popes, among many, many others). Yes, religious leaders (and religious followers) have made some mistakes and committed some sins. But if infallibility and impeccability is your standard then you're going to be awfully disappointed in this world.

Re: No, but we should reject the mistaken claims of those previous scientists.

Of course! And where religious have erred (especially on tangential matters that are not truly germane to their subject, like the origin of life or the age of the Earth) we should reject that too. But rejecting one thing does not mean rejecting everything. (see: old saying about babies and bathwater).

Re: But then you have the dilemma: if you have to revise your divinely inspired religious claims, that means either God lied to you, or men made it up.

There's another alternative: people were wrong. IMO, that's the most preferrable alternative, unless you have evidence of deliberate malfeasance. Also, again, these errors were about very marginal issues, places where popes and imams and theologians should never have been staking any claims in the first place.

Dear D and MLandJ,

For D, the whole point of positing that God communicated with/revealed Himself to humanity in myths, stories, etc. instead of scientifically accurate information is to preserve our free will and to meet humanity where it was at. A scientifically accurate way of communicating with us 30+ centuries ago would have been incomprehensible to primitive humanity, yet there are parts of our condition that haven't changed, in terms of some key problems - even if the cultural forms and technological development vary hugely.

And MLandJ, for generations Marxism was regarded by many highly educated people (the kind whose weight of numbers on their side has been used by some on these forums as proof of the superiority of atheism) as scientific. Sorry it was junk science, but gosh, there is an awful lot of that when you know the history of science. And you are simply wrong on the Apostle Paul. The scholarship on the history of early Christianity currently is much clearer on the progressive role of Christianity in changing for the better attitudes for women given the attitudes of the day. But that's something for a historian who gets context, so don't trouble yourself with it.

Besides, given your assurance that atheist and scientifically informed perspectives are so ipso facto superior to religious perspectives, the wonder is not that Paul was "sadistic" but rather that someone free of religious prejudice like Freud was a misogynist who did real damage. And the interesting thing is how he was taken all the more seriously because of his freedom from prejudice.

But it is even more cute that whenever those acting out of atheism and their understanding of science turn out, with even less excuse than poor benighted believers in sky fairies to have made the last century a real hell on earth, you have to deny them their place in the atheist club. No, towarish, all the murderous scientific atheists of Marxism like the Jacobins they admired are the true children of the enlightenment and of science. If it is any comfort I see the same thing among Protestant fundies all the time - so and so wasn't a "real Christian" because he/she did awful things. But then, part of the charm of fundamentalism, be it atheistic or religious, are the really fantastic symmetries in style and method.

David replies: "Sorry it was junk science, but gosh, there is an awful lot of that when you know the history of science."

Of course it's in the nature of science to correct itself, something religion doesn't do much of - which is why we still have so-called "modern" Christians here on this very blog still engaged in bashing homosexuality as an "abomination" and applauding laws against it. And at least science has produced very tangible results - without the benefits of science this planet would certainly not be able to support the 6 billion plus that now inhabit it.

Science is a tool which can be used for good or bad purposes, obviously. I don't see anyone here arguing otherwise, and most of your bitching seems like straw-man creation, and some of it, like blaming Marxism on science, is just pure nonsense, no matter who might have believed it at one time. Fundies like to pretend that creationism is science, but that doesn't make it so. Marxism is much closer to religion, what with its utopian vision, its notion that history is pointing toward an inevitable end, its dogmas and schisms and personality cults, and so forth. Ask your fellow Christian Hector why he's so fond of it - his Christian sympathies line up perfectly with his Marxist ones.

LMandJ,

When you say that religion doesn't correct itself, you simply display your ignorance of contemporary religious diversity. And given that self-correcting science can have the Noble laureate that I posted about above-

Dr. James Watson of Noble prize fame to get a sense of how this still plays out over half a century after we've seen what happens when science and racism form an iron ring. See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html for starters...

Given Watson's attempt to resucitate scientific racism, or a Dawkins attempt to rehabilitate Soviet style persecution of those who would raise their children with faith with the calumny that it is child abuse, it seems to me that science's current track record for self-correction is questionable.

And we'll have to agree to disagree about Marxism - when a group claims to be scientific, is accepted by many intelligent people for a long period of time as being scientific (like the scientific racists of a century ago) then they are part of the scientific enterprise, even if rotten parts of it.

David writes: "And we'll have to agree to disagree about Marxism - when a group claims to be scientific, is accepted by many intelligent people for a long period of time as being scientific (like the scientific racists of a century ago) then they are part of the scientific enterprise, even if rotten parts of it."

If that's your standard then child molestation and female genital mutilation and slavery and torturing old women to death are a part of the religious enterprise. Tally ho!

It is, of course, a moronic standard, but you're welcome to it.

Dear MLandJ,

Yes, part of the misuse of religion. I've tried to be clear that religion as such is capable of corruption, as you in your own way have made crystal clear that atheism and the exaltation of science are no protection from the worst kinds of fideistic hubris. I don't see how one in good faith can deny that Marxists revolutionaries were atheists or that they believed they were engaged in science, but then I'll trust that anyone who knows the languages and histories of countries under state socialism will have no problem in drawing that conclusion.

But it really is time to go to work. Take care.

David

David writes: "I don't see how one in good faith can deny that Marxists revolutionaries were atheists or that they believed they were engaged in science, but then I'll trust that anyone who knows the languages and histories of countries under state socialism will have no problem in drawing that conclusion."

Of course they were atheists. So are many Buddhists. But if Buddhist monks committed violence it would be moronic to refer to it as "atheistic violence."

And while I know some Marxists claimed to have a scientfic basis for their beliefs, that claim falls apart under serious scrutiny, so why should you pretend to take it seriously? I'll make the comparison to creationism again and let it rest.

It seems to me the rejoinder to this is obvious and devastating, that the history of science has also advanced egregiously false claims and ways of viewing the world, among the worst, scientific racism.

Actually, that's no rejoinder at all, because science has a procedure to correct error. In contrast, if something is wrong in the Bible, there's no procedure for correction.

Dear Dilan,

It wasn't "science" that corrected scientific racism, it was cultural and political activists, including many religious people who were branded obscurantists because they opposed "obviously scientifically true" claims that certain races were inferior. (A good article on this is "Hopelessly Entangled in Nordic Presuppositions" by Sharon Leon in the Journal of Science and Allied Medicines, Vol. 59, no. 1, pp. 1-39 on US eugenics organizations). Yes, some scientists opposed scientific racism to be sure, but the theories and approaches of scientific racism were not discredited until after the results of Nazi scientific racism became widely known, and even then many of the racial scientists and their funding organizations were never called to account (Stefan Kuhl, The Nazi Connection is very good on this). And as my note on the Noble Laureate racist above indicated, the self-correction looks to be a bit wobbly, no?

Jews and Christians can "correct" what is "wrong" in the Bible by careful interpretation, and not assuming that it is all to be taken literally, a very, very old practice of Jewish and Christian exegetes. The procedures for correction vary from tradition to tradition, just as some sciences are better or worse at dealing with egregious offenses against human dignity (international psychological organizations did not deal very well at all with the perversions of Soviet psychiatry that was used to persecute dissidents for example, while the social sciences to some extent still are in thrall to Marxist "insights").

If we can stick to your point that the history of science discredits religion, why doesn't the sorry history of scientific error and criminality, which in less than one century has ammassed such a high body count on reason alone, not dent your faith in science?

Sincerely,

David

Re: In contrast, if something is wrong in the Bible, there's no procedure for correction.

Of course there is, as witness the fact that Christians have abandonned erroneous doctrines over the years. You need look no further than your wallet if you have a credit card for one example. Back in the 13th century Citibank and friends would have the Inquisition knocking on their doors for the sin and heresy of charging interest. Though come to think of it, might be nice if someone could put the fear of God in Citibank & Co.

Let me elaborate on that last comment. The way science works is that researchers look for data to confirm hypotheses. If a hypothesis is erroneous, it will eventually be corrected as additional data is received inconsistent with the hypothesis. Now in the meantime, were stupid policies advocated based on, e.g., eugenics? Sure. But that's because the scientific method does not control how science is used, and distinctions need to be made between things we are very sure of and which have been extensively tested (such as the state of knowledge now about various aspects of evolution) and relatively new hypotheses supported by limited data, such as eugenics in the early 20th century. But there's nothing wrong with science-- whatever the policymakers do, scientists gather more data and improve their working hypotheses over time.

In contrast, the general reaction of religious believers to something being proven wrong seems to be to simply declare that it was never that important, excise it from their beliefs, and continue to believe the rest of the religion. That process is not at all a reliable means of correcting error, primarily because it does nothing to address the fact that such errors undermine confidence in other, related hypothesis. In other words, the fact that the author of Genesis was totally wrong about the early days of the universe and of life on earth is a fact that should influence how one views other conclusions of that author, such as that there is one God and that "He" created the universe. That was part of the same story as the stuff that was proven false.

And yet the religious believer pretends that conclusion was not affected at all by what was proven false.

I can see WHY this is true-- religious believers desparately WANT to believe, and therefore they are going to "wall off" whatever gets proven false and believe the rest of the religion. But religious doctrines, like other claims, are interconnected. If one is really interested in seeking truth (rather than just making sure that one never gets to a point where one denies religious faith), one must, for every Christian or Judeo-Christian doctrine that was ever wrong, extensively inquire into what other doctrines are affected by that error, what authors are now less believable, and what traditions are less supported or unsupported as a result.

Science, therefore, can certainly be wrong, but has the best possible process for going from wrong to right. Religion, in contrast, has a process that will only randomly get you from wrong to right, because religious believers rule off the table any conclusions that might call their faith into question, even though this might be what the data is indicating.

Moe,

I'm a socialist, not a Marxist. Marx was a great thinker who was right about many things and wrong about many others, not least his atheism. I borrow what I think are the true aspects of Marxism, and reject what I think is false, just like I do with, say, feminism. I have a qualified sympathy for _some_ self-proclaimed Marxist regimes and an unqualified antipathy to some others- not all of the regimes that claimed to be Marxist were the same, politically or morally.

While pure Marxism is of course atheistic there were a fair number of religious people who borrowed some aspects of Marxist thinking and revolutionary politics into Christian socialism, Islamic socialism, etc. The Nicaraguans would be a good example.

I wouldn't call Marxism a part of 'science' because science is of its nature amoral and makes no claims about what would be good, right, or desirable- Marxism on the other hand has the ideal of a perfect society and considers some things to be good and others to be evil. It's a political philosophy, not a religion or a science.

Dilan, the Bible isn't the sole source of authority in Christianity. Sacred tradition is the other source, at least for Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, Monophysites, and Nestorians (i.e. for about 70% of Christians). And sacred tradition is very much an evolving and, to a certain small extent, self correcting thing. The Catholic church admitted fault in the execution of St. Joan of Arc and exonerated her only about 30 years after they put her to death.

Dear Dilan,

It wasn't "science" that corrected scientific racism, it was cultural and political activists, including many religious people who were branded obscurantists because they opposed "obviously scientifically true" claims that certain races were inferior. (A good article on this is "Hopelessly Entangled in Nordic Presuppositions" by Sharon Leon in the Journal of Science and Allied Medicines, Vol. 59, no. 1, pp. 1-39 on US eugenics organizations). Yes, some scientists opposed scientific racism to be sure, but the theories and approaches of scientific racism were not discredited until after the results of Nazi scientific racism became widely known, and even then many of the racial scientists and their funding organizations were never called to account (Stefan Kuhl, The Nazi Connection is very good on this). And as my note on the Noble Laureate racist above indicated, the self-correction looks to be a bit wobbly, no?

Jews and Christians can "correct" what is "wrong" in the Bible by careful interpretation, and not assuming that it is all to be taken literally, a very, very old practice of Jewish and Christian exegetes. The procedures for correction vary from tradition to tradition, just as some sciences are better or worse at dealing with egregious offenses against human dignity (international psychological organizations did not deal very well at all with the perversions of Soviet psychiatry that were used to persecute dissidents for example, while the social sciences to some extent still are in thrall to Marxist "insights" in spite of the failures of state socialism).

If we can stick to your point that the history of science discredits religion, why doesn't the sorry history of scientific error and criminality, which in less than one century has ammassed such a high body count on reason alone, not dent your faith in science?

Sincerely,

David

Dear Dilan,

Also, might we not distinguish between different modes of inquiry? Studying and researching in the humanities is different than in the "hard sciences" - where we are primarily quantifying/examining things and natural processes, etc. Religion is a different kind of science, requiring different ways of knowing with its own methods of self-correction and development. Religious teachers/theologians and saints have the capacity to develop their own and other believers' (and even non-believers) understanding of faith just as scientists, using their own criteria of experiment and hypothesis can develop their disciplines. I think it would be fair to say that Martin Luther King contributed greatly to the development of religious and secular society, and he did this as a minister. So what is the real problem?

Can one of the believers address the issue of natural evil (raised by pedro and WillieStyle)? To me this has always been *the* central problem.

Dear Hector,

My only point about Marxism as a science, is that there were many who insisted that it was and who were taken seriously in that claim. Marx was a materialist and determinist and believed that he had found laws of history as valid for human social life. Tony Judt did a great essay on this for the New York Review of Books in Sept. 21, 2006 where he makes a pretty convincing case for why Marxism and Marxism-Leninism was taken too seriously by many atheists and scientists (and no, I'm not trying to show off, I'm in the midst of preparing an on-line class for postwar European history and have just finished teaching a course on 20th century Christianity so the bib references are right in front of me).

Dear Weichi,

I will do so by Monday on this thread, though Hector seems like he should be quite up to it. Sorry to wimp out, but again, theodicy is not the branch of theology that most engages me but I will give it a go.

David

Hector,

A quick correction - Judt said "foremost intellectuals" when referring to those attracted to Marxism - I wouldn't want to conflate those with "scientists" (which most scientists certainly are not if Dawkins is a fair sample) lest I be accused of another lie. And this is where I honestly thank you ML&J, since having a relentlessly hostile critic does provide added incentive for honesty and care in posting.

Czesc,

David

Dilan:

are you a biblical literalist? For most forms of Christianity (everybody except certain protestant traditions) the Bible is free of error only in revealing matters of faith and morals, and even those have to be interpreted hermeneutically (e.g. in the light of the Church's magisterium).

On anything that fall within the realm of natural reason, almost nobody (outside some protestant groups especially well represented in the US) claims that you should use the Bible as a source of information. It is not I who say this: if you have ever read Augustine or Aquinas (and everybody else after them) you should know it very well...

And if anybody claimed that in the past, later he was "corrected" by the simple "procedure" of accepting new empirical evidence (e.g. what science showed on matters of physics, biology etc.)

I want to go back to Ross's original question. To me the obvious reason why today's rich western people are so easily scandalized, say, by natural disasters
("natural evil") is that we are much less at ease with the whole notion of death that people used to be.

Without reducing in any way the great mystery of suffering, it is a fact that if one thinks of life on earth as a brief, painful preparation for a truer and eternal existence, then the "loss," say, of dying young in a tsunami (as opposed to living another 40 years and dying of heart disease) is comparatively less tragic than it is for somebody
who does not believe in the immortality of the soul.

In fact, you could argue that "do not kill" is the only commandment that everybody seems to agree upon, precisely because natural life is for us an ultimate value. The notion that, for instance, "impure acts" could do more serious and lasting damage to our personhood than physical death, is so completely foreign to us that most people would find it laughable.

David writes: "My only point about Marxism as a science, is that there were many who insisted that it was and who were taken seriously in that claim."

Yes. By themselves. Just as the creationists pretend to be scientists and are only taken seriously as scientists by themselves and the most uneducated yahoos. Thus William Dembski is driven away from Baylor, a conservative Baptist university, because the real scientists there would prefer not to be associated with his bullshit.

Scientologists even have a name that suggests their beliefs are scientific, so it must be so! At least that's the level of thinking David would have people swallow. It seems more than mildly stupid to me.

MLandJ,

The difference is that Marxism never was nearly as marginal to European and world politics as are scientology and creationism. It took a massive and sustained imperial commitment by the US to keep Marxist style regimes from sweeping through Europe in the postwar period. This suggests that secular intellectuals, particularly of an anti-religious bent in Europe, Latin America, Asia and Africa, aren’t always the sharpest knives in the drawer. Marxism wasn't discredited until after it produced collapse in most states where it was tried, including a country regarded up until its demise as one of the foremost powers in the world.

You are free to define Marxism as quasi religious pseudo science ML&J, but you are engaging in simply wrong-headed and inaccurate historical revisionism to assert that somehow state socialism was not regarded as a viable and even better alternative by the majority of secular intellectuals for much of the 20th century, atrocities and all. And sorry, that's not private judgment or mystification, that's simply the lay of the land in historical scholarship.

So feel free to pretend that it wasn't so, but here you are simply wrong, unless, you think you are a more knowledgeable historian than Tony Judt, my drugi? Stipulated, of course we recognize now how stoopid Marxism was, but the self-correcting nature of science or the intellectual chops of the vast majority of the secular intelligentsia (the kind who are on your side in the 2004 election I'm sure) did not kick in with powerful anti-Marxian until after Marxist pseudo-science had littered the world with the wreckage of over a score of countries and millions of lost lives.

David replies: "The difference is that Marxism never was nearly as marginal to European and world politics as are scientology and creationism."

That's an absurd objection, of course. Engels started yipping about Marxism as a science early on, long before it was any more significant than Scientology - which is an international concern itself now. The important thing is the validity of the claim that it has anything to do with science, not how successful it was

"This suggests that secular intellectuals, particularly of an anti-religious bent in Europe, Latin America, Asia and Africa, aren’t always the sharpest knives in the drawer. Marxism wasn't discredited until after it produced collapse in most states where it was tried, including a country regarded up until its demise as one of the foremost powers in the world."

You're diluting your own point. Fascism had a similar appeal to Catholic intellectuals for a time - so what? This has nothing to do with the conflation of Marxism and science that you're pushing, and that I'm deriding as simply silly.

Dear LM&J,

And here I speak from knowledge and experience since when I took your line that Marxism was really not so serious during a grad student conference at the U of Washington many moons ago I was dressed down (figuratively, please don't get all sexified in your commentary my desperate friend) by Donald Treadgold, one of the foremost Soviet specialists in our country. Treadgold insisted that I was being too flip and that Marxism was key to understanding 20th century intellectuals.

Sorry this doesn't fit into your secular fairy land where the secular rationalist are all strong and above average, but really it just was the case that most intellectuals who embraced atheism and progressive thought swooned for Stalin. Milosz, Raymond Aaron, Camus, etc. all thought they were on the losing side when they sought to challenge Marxism in the 1950s, and the terribly elite and secular student protesters of the 60s in Europe were of various inter-tribal hues of red. That is the left's bankrupt intellectual legacy, and Christian Democrats backed with lots of US cash and support had to work very hard to keep that tide from mucking up Western Europe. I would advise you to back off here, drug, because you are simply nattering on about something that you really do know nothing about.

Dear ML&J,

It would be dishonorable to engage in a drawn out battle of wits with so obviously unarmed an opponent. So let me be merciful and quick. Much of the defense of science as a superior way of knowledge preached by Dawkins and his ilk hinges upon its supposedly superior capacity for self-correction. The fact that Marxism was not discredited intellectually by those who claimed to practice "social science" until it collapsed politically seriously calls into question the claim that truly secular social scientists have any high road to knowledge.

As for the religious and fascism, I've not claimed immunity from stupidity or criminality because of religious inclinations or sensibilities. Let me go really slow, and I'll use simple syntax because I know it’s late, but yes, religious people can do and believe very bad things because they think God told them it would be nice. Secular people, who hate religion, can also do very bad things because reason tells them the world will be better if they break some eggs now (that's a euphamism for killing and other not nice things). Lots and lots of secular people believed state socialism was so reasonable that they should surrender their freedom and kill millions of their fellows because this was the way to advance rationalism and secularism. They didn't stop doing that because your mob presented them with compelling arguments - they stopped because the right and just enough centrists with the very occasional honorable leftist decided that Stalin land was not going to be fun to live in, and would be worth a great deal of blood and treasure to resist for as long as it took. Prayer, bullets, political wisdom and ordinary people did a hell of a lot more than the militantly secular left ever did to keep communism from killing many more millions of people, though I will also grant that those scientists who helped make atom bombs and neat ways of delivering them sure were swell to. I'm glad you want to identify Marxism with the worst swear words you know - that it was religious in origin - it means my side's victory is complete. But it doesn't change the fact that Marxist persuaded far too many secularist rubes of its scientific power and led them to do the kind of damage that Torquemada and company couldn't have pulled off in a thousand years.

Good night, my drug.

David appears to be a partisan of the Cold War and of course he's lost me here. (In case you are new to this blog, David, I'm on the political Left, and a socialist. It would be pretty off topic to start debating the pros and cons of capitalism vs. socialism here though, so I'm not going to start).

Dear Hector,

I'm not saying "mistakes weren't made" during the CW (Latin America is the anti-Eastern Europe/mirror image of the ugly side of American imperialism I know), or that non-Soviet style socialism doesn't have certain merits, that I purely out of prudential judgment am rather happy are not inflicted on our country. My only problem is when socialists think that gulags, anti-religious persecutions and genocides can help get us to a socialist happy place, and when they insist that they do have a science of society and all who object can dealt with summarily that I start to get fretful. I'm with JP II though in identifying the failures of state socialism with its false anthropology. But while I'm glad the Soviet Union is gone (no thanks to the vast majority of the militantly secular) I grant your point that there are worthy arguments to be had about state intervention, etc. But this is just a way of saying that you should not interpret my rhetoric above as implying a blanket disrespect for honorable leftists - Orwell and Cardinal Wyszynski would hardly have been thrilled by a lot of what I've just wrote. No offense meant, brother in Christ.

Be well and let's both pray for one another.

Czesc,

David

I guess I am bit troubled by the entire premise of this discussion, which seems to be that there is or should be an explanation as to why God allows suffering in the world. This assumption is more redolent of a Greek metaphysical modality of thought than it is a Biblical approach to these questions. The Old Testament is nothing if not clear on its rejection of theoretical forms of theodicy which attempt to justify or explain the reality of suffering in the face of the mystery of God. In fact, what we find is an extraordinary body of literature from the prophets to Job to the Psalms and Lamentations which provides no explanations, but lament, crying out, and complaint to God. Israel was a land of screams precisely because of its incapacity to be consoled by explanations or myths which allowed other surrounding cultures to distance themselves from the painful realities of oppression and suffering. Israel was unique in that it always faced squarely the scandal of suffering, a realism that ultimately gave rise to a radical ethics of responsibility for the widow, the orphan, and the stranger but also in a form of spirituality which agonistically placed its ultimate trust in the justice of God.

In a sense, the New Testament complexifies but basically continues this trajectory of anti-theodicy in which the response to the problem of suffering is not an explanation, but a radical form of discipleship which attempts to alleviate the suffering of others (see the “little apocalypse” in Matthew 25). After all we Jesus on the Cross echoing the Psalmist when asks “my God, my God why have you forsaken me?” This is a thoroughly Semitic response to suffering and to the degree that Christianity has covered this over in its almost exclusive focus on Easter Sunday (to the detriment of Good Friday and Holy Saturday) it has become a religion of the victors in which the suffering of others is justified by reference the salvific efficacy of the Cross which is proven in the Resurrection.


The free will argument which is being discussed only enters Christian discourse with Augustine (and his Neoplatonism), who dramatically shifts the landscape of theodicy by shifting the onus back on humans and away from God—a shift that moves away from the Biblical paradigm, which is an approach that amounts to an anti-theodicy.

As a Christian, I think the most authentic approach to the problem of suffering is to dispense with theoretical arguments and engage in a practical theodicy which attempts to transform the conditions which create this problem to begin with. Theoretical theodicies serve to distance us from the scandal of suffering and the burden of responsibility which follows from an acknowledgment of this scandal. In this, I think it is quite right to speak of the evils of theodicy and articulate a defense of the biblical paradigm which leads not to theoretical explanations, but rather a radical praxis of solidarity with those who suffer. This is ultimately the biblical modality of thought which calls not for correspondence or coherence models of truth, but truth as justice for the other.

I guess I am bit troubled by the entire premise of this discussion, which seems to be that there is or should be an explanation as to why God allows suffering in the world. This assumption is more redolent of a Greek metaphysical modality of thought than it is a Biblical approach to these questions. The Old Testament is nothing if not clear on its rejection of theoretical forms of theodicy which attempt to justify or explain the reality of suffering in the face of the mystery of God. In fact, what we find is an extraordinary body of literature from the prophets to Job to the Psalms and Lamentations which provides no explanations, but lament, crying out, and complaint to God. Israel was a land of screams precisely because of its incapacity to be consoled by explanations or myths which allowed other surrounding cultures to distance themselves from the painful realities of oppression and suffering. Israel was unique in that it always faced squarely the scandal of suffering, a realism that ultimately gave rise to a radical ethics of responsibility for the widow, the orphan, and the stranger but also in a form of spirituality which agonistically placed its ultimate trust in the justice of God.

In a sense, the New Testament complexifies but basically continues this trajectory of anti-theodicy in which the response to the problem of suffering is not an explanation, but a radical form of discipleship which attempts to alleviate the suffering of others (see the “little apocalypse” in Matthew 25). After all we Jesus on the Cross echoing the Psalmist when asks “my God, my God why have you forsaken me?” This is a thoroughly Semitic response to suffering and to the degree that Christianity has covered this over in its almost exclusive focus on Easter Sunday (to the detriment of Good Friday and Holy Saturday) it has become a religion of the victors in which the suffering of others is justified by reference the salvific efficacy of the Cross which is proven in the Resurrection.


The free will argument which is being discussed only enters Christian discourse with Augustine (and his Neoplatonism), who dramatically shifts the landscape of theodicy by shifting the onus back on humans and away from God—a shift that moves away from the Biblical paradigm, which is an approach that amounts to an anti-theodicy.

As a Christian, I think the most authentic approach to the problem of suffering is to dispense with theoretical arguments and engage in a practical theodicy which attempts to transform the conditions which create this problem to begin with. Theoretical theodicies serve to distance us from the scandal of suffering and the burden of responsibility which follows from an acknowledgment of this scandal. In this, I think it is quite right to speak of the evils of theodicy and articulate a defense of the biblical paradigm which leads not to theoretical explanations, but rather a radical praxis of solidarity with those who suffer. This is ultimately the biblical modality of thought which calls not for correspondence or coherence models of truth, but truth as justice for the other.

if it were possible to believe simultaneously in the existence of evil and in the existence of a benevolent God, then this benevolent God would have to be the kind of God who is willing to suffer evil alongside His creature and with the same intensity. This seems to me to be a very compelling answer.

Well, it's not logically compelling, regardless of whatever other compelling-ness it might have.

If it were possible ... this [...]God would have to be : it's an exercise in "what if," and does zero to answer the (correct) charge of begging the question that the writer himself notes at the beginning of the same paragraph.

Dear Winthdaddy,

On the whole I think you are right and one of the chief glories of our faith is how many have been inspired to care for the widows, sick and orphaned, and do works of mercy. Our faith is at its most convincing when we love in real and concrete ways, especially those who are weakest and in the most pain.

Yet faith seeks understanding, and so theodicy can have a place. You'll note that at least one person has asked for some discussion of the problem of natural evil - not a problem for me, because I find human evil so overwhelming it is hard not to think that the accumulation of human sinfulness might not actually muck up the real environment enough to produce hurricanes and more (and no, ML&J I'm not saying gays make hurricanes - am much more worried about the capacity of ordinary malice and selfishness to pervert - please don't get unseemly now - nature). And also, because my wonder at the problem of good is such that I trust God with the mystery of evil. But that's just me - I think Ross has hit the nail on the head though when he sees a real divide between those who have a kind of unspoken resentment at the world for not being more perfect, as opposed to those of us who are so overwhelmed by the gratuitousness of goodness that the question doesn't hit us as hard.

But well said, Winthdaddy and now I really, honestly truly am going home.

Pax,

David

Also, I'm late to this and haven't begun to read the whole thing, but I'm a little surprised to see Ross rehashing this kind of classic Philosophy 101 (or at least 102) kind of stuff. Didn't Ross more or less argue in his first book that philosophy is essentially a pointless waste of time? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Winthdaddy-

From outside of Christianity (but possibly influenced by it in some way that escapes me), I endorse the practical response to the problem of evil you suggest. What I do not understand, however, is who to blame for the random evil, caused by no human being, that befalls so many among us. To me, it is tempting to think there is nobody to blame. But if there is someone who designed the world the way it is and fails to intervene to protect innocent people from unspeakable torment, then that someone deserves some moral scrutiny, by my lights. For, limited though my lights may be, I am capable of imagining a different state of affairs in the world, one in which free will does indeed exist, but in which suffering is the result only of the exercise of free will with the intention of causing suffering and not of random natural events that have no relation to free will.

David "replies": "It would be dishonorable to engage in a drawn out battle of wits with so obviously unarmed an opponent. So let me be merciful and quick. Much of the defense of science as a superior way of knowledge preached by Dawkins and his ilk hinges upon its supposedly superior capacity for self-correction. The fact that Marxism was not discredited intellectually by those who claimed to practice "social science" until it collapsed politically seriously calls into question the claim that truly secular social scientists have any high road to knowledge."

So now we're down to "social scientists" and you've backed away from "scientists." What's next - ghost hunters? You never had a salient point and you've retreated from your starting point - and necessarily so.

Are you actually stupid enough to think that I have some sort of sympathy for Marxism? Is that the axe you're grinding? I despise Marxism as much as I despise religious fundamentalism, and I'd despise it even more if it were still a viable and growing concern. In case I haven't made it clear, I regard them as symptoms of the same disease - human stupidity.

"But it doesn't change the fact that Marxist persuaded far too many secularist rubes of its scientific power and led them to do the kind of damage that Torquemada and company couldn't have pulled off in a thousand years."

You're forgetting the "Gott Mit Uns" gang, which did essentially the same thing. And though I despise Stalinism, it was really Russia that did the bulk of the work (at least in terms of lives lost) in defeating Germany.

From a purely logical point of view, Christianity's free will answer is unassailable: it is only because we have the capacity for evil that good is possible, and without sin there would be no Redemption. QED.

Why unassailable? Why should free will trump the good? If God could create a world without evil, what does it matter if there is no free will?

This begs another question. Is there free will in Heaven? If free will requires evil, and if free will is accorded a higher value than unadulterated goodness, then why are so many Christians looking forward to leaving the world (this world) of free will behind?

David,

I appreciate that you seem to acknowledge that the Cold War had its dark side too, in Latin America. I oppose Bolshevism, as I also oppose capitalism (and for the matter fascism). But I wouldn't necessarily blame Marxism for what went wrong in the Soviet Union- I would blame it on the fact that Stalin and Mao, and I suppose Lenin too, were evil men. I think that if Left Socialist Revolutionaries had triumphed over the Bolsheviks, or if Bukharin had triumphed over Stalin, the history of the Soviet Union would look entirely different. It's pretty clear to me that Marx did not 'want' anything like Stalinism. He said, "if you want to know what the dictatorship of the proletariat looks like, look at the Paris Commune.' Now you might support or oppose the Paris Commune but assuredly it looked nothing like Lenin, let alone like Stalin. And speaking of the Paris Commune, since you mentioned 'Jacobins' earlier it's worth noting that many fewer Frenchmen were executed by Robespierre during the 'Reign of Terror' than by Thiers at the suppression of the Paris Commune- we don't often hear conservatives mention how bad Thiers was.

It's strange to me that conservatives are usually interested in stressing the force of personalities and individuals in history but when it comes to Stalinist Russia they want to blame central planning, or state ownership, or atheism, or anyone but Stalin.

Of course Marxism has some serious errors with it, most notably its atheism (which was quietly jettisoned by many state-socialists in Latin America). I don't think it's fair to blame the Moscow Trials and the Cultural Revolution on Marx, though, any more than it is to blame the wars of religion on the one who said, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." I think that it makes sense to acknowledge there were many kind of "Marxist" regimes, some were very bad but others were fairly benevolent (not asking you to agree here, just stating my view.) I also think that we should look at what was good in a country like the (post-1960) Soviet Union and try to include that in an ideal society. There are reasons why 60% of Russians today say that they were better off in the Brezhnev era.

Dilan,
Not everything is amenable to the scientific method. Large areas of life are not. An what you describe as "religion's means of excising errors" is pretty much the normal way that human beings do go about dealing with mistakes they've made. Way back in the infancy of SNL Gilda Radner's Roseanne Rosannadana character would go on long tirades about this or that, then suddenly be shown she was wrong-- whereupon she would crack a smile and say "Oh, well, neeeeever miiind!" That's normal for us humans. Moreover the things that religion has been shown to be wrong on (like my example on interest) have been fairly marginal matters.

Re: Religion, in contrast, has a process that will only randomly get you from wrong to right, because religious believers rule off the table any conclusions that might call their faith into question, even though this might be what the data is indicating.

???
How? My faith does not depend on the Earth being 6000 years old, for example. So scientific data about biology, geology etc. poses no threat and no issue for me. We're back to where we started: the rather arrogant assumption of the Dawkinists that because they can show that Biblical literalism cannot be true that they have succeeded in disproving the whole of religion. Moreover science too has occasionally had to deal with key matters being proven wrong; but no one junks the whole of science if one of its parts is called into question. The basic assumptions of Newtonian physics were shown to be in error in the early 20th century; the response was not to talk away from physics and declare the whole enterprise useless.

Re: You're forgetting the "Gott Mit Uns" gang, which did essentially the same thing.

We're been over this before. The Gott Mit Uns logo geos back to the Middle Ages in Germany, It was not invented by the Nazis. Might as well claim that any and all sins committed by the government of the UK are the fault of religion because their flag has both the normal cross and a St Andrew's cross.

JonF writes: "The Gott Mit Uns logo geos back to the Middle Ages in Germany, It was not invented by the Nazis. Might as well claim that any and all sins committed by the government of the UK are the fault of religion because their flag has both the normal cross and a St Andrew's cross."

I'm not blaming the Nazis on religion. I'm saying they weren't "secularists" like the Marxists were. It's a fact that most Nazis and German soldiers were Christians. It's not my fault that most Christians are ashamed of that fact and will bend over backwards to deny it.

Dear Hector,

This is a long conversation - on the whole I think Kolakowski is fairly convincing that Stalinism wasn't that great a distortion of Marxism - Marxism need not have been Leninist-Stalinist, but for too many Marxists it was an aceptable varient. I think there is a need for checks and balances not just in politics but in broad areas where economic and political power gets exercised in any society, and to my mind the fettered capitalism of our country does a pretty good job of that, with some real trade offs (more inequality, but more wealth). But it does seem that the Leninist varient of Marxism has come up short and done a lot of damage wherever it was implimented, and it was implimented in so many distinctive cultural environments that the particular model of Soviet style socialism seems problematic. And my main complaint about Marx is the atheism and the economic reductionism.

Oh - and as for the Russian nostalgia for the Brezhnev years - first problem is that that state died, which should nay have happened had it been sound, and secondly, this need be no more convincing than the kind of nostalgia that persisted for almost a generatio among many Germans for the Hitlerzeit. Also, there is very little nostalgia for the Brezhnev era in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and much of Western Ukraine.

But again, this need not invalidate all socialism or confirm a'la pangloss that democratic capitalism is the best of all possible systems (I'll take the worst, except for all the others).

Pax,

David

PS: Sometimes personalities count, sometimes systems count. I'm not really a conservative though, since few Americans are. Most of us are various shades of liberal - I'm of the neo-con shade of liberal. Freedom is sweet, but social responsibility and solidarity matters to. And all of this is very much secondary to my faith of course, whose claims trump all.

I have a hypothesis about some believers' attitude towards the problem of evil: it seems to me that to some believers the existence of God is an unquestionable reality in their lives. Since there is such a thing as a personal relationship with God that they cultivate and value, and since they feel very deeply that they know, albeit in a very limited way, the nature of God, it is absurd for them to ascribe to God the callous disregard for the welfare of others that people like me see in him. If there is natural evil in the world, and if such evil is somewhat random and uninfluenced by the will of human beings, then surely the existence of such evil and its randomness are necessary in ways that are mysterious to us, they must reason. To suggest otherwise would be to engage in a profound betrayal of someone whom they profoundly love and admire.

For someone on the outside, however, like me, the situation is exactly the opposite. I have no knowledge nor relationship with anything I might call a God, and psychologically, the knowledge that such a being permits (and often endorses, at least in the Christian Bible) evil makes it impossible for me to even want to have a relationship with such a God.

Unlike that of some other commenters here, my own atheism does not give me the illusion of intellectual superiority with respect to . I happen to disbelieve in the proposition that the Christian (or the Jewish, or the Muslim) God exists. But that is only incidental, unremarkable, and rather unimportant. What is more important is the deep moral disagreement I find myself having with some believers. And that moral disagreement comes from my and their attitudes towards the problem of natural evil. Incidentally, this disagreement is not generalized. I am not in conflict with anyone who, like Rabbi Harold Kushner, sees in God solidarity rather than omnipotence, indignation about natural evil rather than indifferent cost-benefit calculations justifying and permitting it.

Dear Pedro,

I think this is right for many of us. I remember some of the most important teaching I've received on faith was that it is a gift. God has his purposes for asking some to live with it and without it, and it could even be that those who are wavering between taking or rejecting faith and are put off by a ML&J or more thoughtful questioning by people like yourself are the sort who are seeking easy answers and will make the most destructive of believers. I don't confess to know what God's purposes are for you not having faith or my having faith, and I don't believe at all it is because God loves me more. We will both be judged on the integrity of our lives and loves. You and other non-believers help when you raise hard questions and don't allow us to hand out false comfort in the face of real tragedy. But we believers have our own place in the economy of culture and spiritual life and all I can say from personal experience is that my sense of God doesn't feel illusory and moves me to try to be as loving and free as I can be and even from time to time to push beyond what I think I can do.

Pedro,

You asked for a solution to the problem of natural evil. I'm not the best person to ask since I'm not fully accepting of the orthodox answer to the problem of evil, and have a rather heterodox point of view on the matter, but I'll give it a shot.

Natural evil comes about because our world is governed by physical laws that cause earthquakes, viruses and things like that. The reason the physical laws of our universe can have such nasty consequences is, presumably, because this creation isn't, any longer, purely 'good' even if it was in the begining- this world is governed by the devil, and so the complex mixture of good and bad effects that comes out of the nature of physical law is exactly what we would expect of a world in which both God and the Devil have a share.

We have deadly viruses, for example, because the evolution of life is governed by amoral and often cruel laws of natural selection. One can fairly ask _why_ evolution takes this course and not another- why isn't evolution guided towards higher and better things, and why does God not interfere to extinguish deadly viruses when they come into existence? The answer is that this world is under the domination of the devil and therefore a world in which God has, for the most part, temporarily withdrawn Himself (barring the occasional miracle). In this devil-ruled world, God has left nature to its own devices, for the most part, and earthquakes and viruses are the result.

Not everything is amenable to the scientific method. Large areas of life are not. An what you describe as "religion's means of excising errors" is pretty much the normal way that human beings do go about dealing with mistakes they've made. Way back in the infancy of SNL Gilda Radner's Roseanne Rosannadana character would go on long tirades about this or that, then suddenly be shown she was wrong-- whereupon she would crack a smile and say "Oh, well, neeeeever miiind!" That's normal for us humans.

But the whole joke of that (and by the way, it was actually Emily Litella) is that you can't simply make up for being misinformed about fundamental matters for several minutes by saying "never mind"! And that's exactly what religion tries to do. That analogy supports MY argument.

How? My faith does not depend on the Earth being 6000 years old, for example.

But it depends on the testimony of people who thought the world was 6,000 years old, and people who claimed they were writing the history of the earth based on a 6,000 year age (as well as based on a population of the earth and a cosmology that has been proven false). It also was associated for over 1,000 years with that belief. If you had talked to a devout educated Christian in 1500 AD, he would have been just as certain as to the veracity of Genesis and the relative youth of the earth as he would have about Jesus' incarnation. Those people were completely wrong about those things, and yet you pretend that this tells you nothing about the veracity of their beliefs about God. That's wishful thinking. And scientists, in contrast, reinvestigate all the dependent theories and hypotheses when one is called into doubt. That's because science is concerned with truth and religion is concerned with not entertaining uncomfortable beliefs.

The basic assumptions of Newtonian physics were shown to be in error in the early 20th century; the response was not to talk away from physics and declare the whole enterprise useless.

The real analogy is that Newtonian physics' believers did not insist that the basic physical workings of the universe could not be reexamined when Newtonian physics was called into question. In contrast, the whole ballgame for Christian believers is that under no circumstances will the basic belief in God and Jesus be reassessed, no matter how much data comes in on the questionability of various religious doctrines.

That may be many things, but a search for truth it is not.

Far from unassailable, the free will defense isn't even coherent: it doesn't deliver any actual explanation of what free will is such that ANY claim about it can be examined, it doesn't actually answer any of the objections, and it even seems to be directly self-contradicted by elements in many mainstream Christian theologies (like, for instance, the idea that God is 100% good).

Let's be frank. The sole apparent purpose for the non-concept of "free will" is to help evade moral responsibility whenever convenient. It doesn't explain a THING about how beings make choices. All it does is essentially claim that the responsibility of one sentient agent completely excuses that of agents which might ostensibly have had their own predictable effects on the choice of the first agent.

And Hector: "In this devil-ruled world, God has left nature to its own devices, for the most part, and earthquakes and viruses are the result."

This isn't any sort of answer at all. The question in theodicy is why an all powerful and all knowing being who is claimed to be all benevolent, wanting only good for all, would allow not just evil and suffering to exist generally, but every single specific evil individually. (And, perhaps, all this given that, biblically, god seems to have no fears whatsoever of violating "free will" by his open actions in earlier eras)

Your answer is basically a non-sequitur: all you is basically repeat the original question: God allows suffering to exist...

...but the question was "why" and how is this consistent with his claimed attributes?

Dilan,

"In contrast, the general reaction of religious believers to something being proven wrong seems to be to simply declare that it was never that important, excise it from their beliefs, and continue to believe the rest of the religion. That process is not at all a reliable means of correcting error, primarily because it does nothing to address the fact that such errors undermine confidence in other, related hypothesis. In other words, the fact that the author of Genesis was totally wrong about the early days of the universe and of life on earth is a fact that should influence how one views other conclusions of that author, such as that there is one God and that "He" created the universe. That was part of the same story as the stuff that was proven false."

I think you are confusing religious theology with some kind of crude attempt to create a working scientific theory of the natural world. It isn't even remotely like that. The reason many intelligent religious people are forgiving of the various things one finds in scripture that are disproven by science is that these things are not even the point to begin with. Creation stories are not taken to be literal descriptions of the physical creation of the world, but mythic-metaphorical poetry that aims at conveying in words and stories a higher truth than the physical realm contains. Certain religious fundamentalists take these stories literally and materially, and thus they feel obligated to defend such descriptions in the face of scientific enquiry, but intelligent religious people find that just as silly as thinking that scientific findings invalidate religious theology. They don't, because they aren't even operating on the same level of truth. Science speaks to literal, material truth, whereas religion speaks to a higher truth, a higher awareness and consciousness that purports to be behind the physical manifestation of the world. One can certainly try to relate the two, but the relationship is not a literal one, and it is not proven or disproven in either direction.

So finding out that the authors of various scriptures from long ago were not producing scientifically accurate descriptions of the world does not much phase me, or reduce their credibility, since that is not what they were aiming at in the first place. I'm more interested in the spiritual accuracy of their writings, which is an entirely different form of truth that is to be evaluated by spiritual methods, not scientific ones.

conradg: you sound like precisely the sort of believer I aimed this post at: namely, someone who sees scriptures as a source of deep insight into spiritual matters rather than specially purified communications direct from God. The question, and it is a sincere one and not a trick question for which I would accept no reasonable answer, at that point becomes whether you think the traditional form of the Bible reflects this point of view in its construction and special limitations on content.

What's the difference between:

A) Christians arguing about Theodicy

And

B) Star Wars nerds arguing about why Darth Vader can't shoot blue lightning from his fingertips like Emperor Palpatine. (Why? Because the Force requires living flesh to generate blue lightning and Darth Vader is more "machine than man." Hence he just can't do it.)

Trick question: There is no difference.

The argument makes sense within that universe (Christian theology, Star Wars mythology), but taken out of that context, it seems to be a little silly.

Dear Herb,

Which is why the Fallows article is so confusing, as is the ranting of so many atheists. I wish Fallows could just get on with his life and accept that what he has rejected is gone for him - it might save him from silly critiques about Christians "needing heaven" to explain or deal with suffering on earth, which of course we don't. Heaven existed prior to sin and really compelling speculative theology on the purposes of the Fall is beyond his ken.

For those atheists who believe that in attacking faith they are striking a blow against the forces of political and cultural reaction in our society, I think they don't get how irrelevent and isolated they are in the U.S., but that's not my problem. Given that so far none of them has expressed even the slightest concern for the horrific record of anti-religious persecution in the last century or how some of their heroes (Dawkins and Hitchens) evince some nostalgia for the same I see no reason to not be happy that they are creating the foundations for a backlash. It will be ugly, but I'm not willing to see me and mine suffer or my country further confused so that the new bezbozhniki can rant in peace.

But I think one aspect of the argument that is interesting, and which Ross was trying to get at, is just how protected we are and how abstract the problem of evil is. In Africa, where the faith is growing by leaps and bounds (10 million in 1900, over 400 million Christians now) suffering is real yet there is not a lot of hand wringing over theodicy in a continent where all is not going wonderfully well. Here, where people are coseted from most harm, we are hair trigger quick to go to law or scream and rail against any kind of perceived or real injustice. Fallows article I guess can be considered theology for the entitlement generation which is driven to rail against the God they don't believe in because it is so tense wondering if one's 401K will really retain all its value. In that sense it is culturally interesting how even non-believers keep trying to use forms of Christian theology even when they have abandoned its substance.

David,

You mentioned Christianity in Africa but neglected to mention Joseph Kony and his Lords Resistance Army, a group of rabidly Christian terrorists who have been causing problems in Uganda for almost 20 years. I bring up Kony and the LRA not as evidence that religion leads to evil, which I don't believe, but to illustrate that we can spend all day swapping similar anecdotes and come no closer to disproving the fact that neither religionists nor atheists have a monopoly on atrocity.

I guess my ultimate point, put forth in a snarky manner, is that "the problem of evil" is only a problem if you assume that God is benevolent.

Christian teachings take that assumption for granted. John 3:16 and all that.

But absent revelatory biblical sources, what evidence do you have that God is benevolent?

Is it just something that you intuit based on the warm fuzzies you feel from time to time? If so, how is that any more valid than an atheist thinking that God, if he exists, is kind of jerk?

David, you're pretty much a perfect example of the usual non-response: sneering, accusatory, full of it (in claiming that "so far none of them has expressed even the slightest concern for the horrific record of anti-religious persecution" which is a complete and vile utter lie") and yet not a single substantive point against any argument on the matter in question.

Instead, we are just all supposed to find the very suggestion illegitimate: you are not allowed to discuss this subject, and you are simply arrogant to try!

And no one is "trying to use Christian theology even when they have abandoned its substance." They are responding to the banal, morally bereft, and incoherent assurances of others.

Dear Bad and Herb,

My apologies for having given offense. I think I did particularly badly when I ascribed motives to you, assuming that you were engaged in something like evangelistic atheism.

In my defense, I have on a number of occasions brought up the issue of religious persecution in the name of atheism, some of it being proposed today by Dawkins (because his effort to stigmatize the religious education of children by conflating it with child abuse is in direct philosophical continuity with state sponsored persecution in the past). So far, no atheist on this blog has expressed the slightest concern about this. This dovetails with the literature of contemporary religious life where scholars have written little on anti-religious persecution in the past century.

As for "no one trying to use Christian theology, even if they have abandoned its substance" - please remember that I was agreeing with Herb's point that questions have a context. As I was thinking about it this morning however, I have realized that theodicy remains an issue because it is the point where theology, pastoral practice and evangelism intersect. Hence it is more of a legitimate target for non-believers, if only to undermine Christian efforts at evangelism, or of believers who are struggling against what they think of as false comfort.

Again though, my apologies for offending. I will try to be more careful.

And Herb, I guess the benevolance of the world is one of my underlying assumptions, made in full knowledge that one of my daughters might fall victim to any of a number of horrific diseases, of all the evil that contemporary Eastern European history suggests, etc. I don't think of it simply as "warm fuzzies" that I experience from time to time. Rather it is both a sensibility and as a decision to respond with loyalty and love to a creater who has put me and those I love in a dangerous but unutterably beautiful and good world. Hence Christianity and the biblical account make more sense to me. And for atheists or even Christians who do not find the world so good, I guess this is just the difference in our sensibilities/basic orientation.

Take care gentlemen,

David

I think you are confusing religious theology with some kind of crude attempt to create a working scientific theory of the natural world. It isn't even remotely like that. The reason many intelligent religious people are forgiving of the various things one finds in scripture that are disproven by science is that these things are not even the point to begin with.

Except that they WERE a big part of the "point" for over a millenium (and still are a big part of the "point" for a significant number of believers now).

Further, and more importantly, you miss a crucial issue. If I am trying a case and a witness is caught up in a bunch of lies and misstatements and errors about all sorts of minor details, the jury is entitled to draw the inference that the witness got the big things wrong too.

What you guys are blind to-- and you really are just blind to it, because you don't want to entertain any thought that might make you question your faith-- is that you are relying on the same people who testified with great certainty regarding the creation and population of the earth as your witnesses for those beliefs that you contend to be the "point". And they have proven to be unreliable witnesses.

Er, no, Dilan.

There are a number of statements of what the essence of the Christian faith is supposed to be. One might use the ancient formula, "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior". One might follow the Letter to the Romans: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Or the words of Christ "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" One might use the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed. Nowhere in any of those basic creeds or statements of faith does it mention that you have to believe anything about the age of the earth, or about how it was created, or even that the Bible is literally inerrant. A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ and in His saving death and resurrection, period.

Belief in a 6000 year old earth and so forth was, I imagine, pretty common a thousand years ago, but it was never remotely treated as an article of faith in the same way that, say, the Virgin Birth, or the miracles of Jesus, or the Resurrection were.

And actually, religious people including Christians do re-examine the ground of their faith on a regular basis. We simply conclude that on balance, the reasons for belief are stronger than the reasons for disbelief. An atheist or agnostic view of the world leaves too much unanswered.

Furthermore, your point about witnesses is just silly. The only 'witnesses' whose testimony I take more or less literally, are the four evangelists and the authors of the New Testament letters (Paul, Jude and so forth). I don't see that they made any false statments about the origin of the earth or anything like that.

Hector, your argument is circular. When you say you don't take statements "literally", that is another way of saying "I ignore the ones that are false and pretend that they have no bearing on the veracity of the ones I believe".

Dilan,

I don't know how I can restate this in a way you can understand. The reliability of Moses (or to be precise, the redactor of the Pentateuch) has _no relevance_ whatsoever to the reliability of St. John the Evangelist. The centerpiece of my faith is belief in Christ. I would have reason to believe in Christ even if the Gospels didn't exist and the only 'testimony' of Christ were dimly remembered legends. Be that as it may, the Gospels and Epistles do exist and their testimony is entirely separate from the The Old Testament is there for context and background, and arguably for moral instruction as well. However your view of the Old Testament is really pretty tangential to your view of Christ.

One only has to look at the _style_ of the Gospels and compare them to Genesis. Genesis is written in the mythological style, and St. John's Gospel is written in a realistic and documentary style. One was _meant_ as a literal account in quite a different way than the other.

Serious questions for you guys:

Do you think there's anything to be learned by thinking hard, while engaged in detailed, fair-minded conversation with others, about these issues?

Just curious, because a lot of philosophers and theologians have done exactly that. I don't know the names of the theologians (though I've heard that Book 2, volume 2 of Karl Barth's Church Dogmatics is quite good), but there are actually some contemporary philosophers who have worked on this and, at least in the opinion of other philosophers, have done very good work.

The philosophers I have in mind are: Alvin Plantinga, especially his 1974 God, Freedom, and Evil, chapter 14 of his 2000 Warranted Christian Belief, and his "Supralapsarianism, or 'O Felix Culpa'" from the 2004 Christian Faith and the Problem of Evil, edited by Peter van Inwagen. Speaking of van Inwagen, he's also written a lot of good stuff on theodicy; probably the best thing to read by him is his 2006 The Problem of Evil, though he has three excellent essays on theodicy in his 1995 God, Knowledge, and Mystery (chapters 2-4). He's best known for his truly impressive deployment of the free will defense, using it not only explain why God allows innocents to suffer, but also why there is natural evil and animal suffering. Marilyn McCord Adams offers an influential theodicy in her 1999 Horrendous Suffering and the Goodness of God and relies on the role of the Incarnation to make sense of evil in her 2007 Christ and Horrors. A justly famous essay offering the so-called "skeptical theist" response to the problem of evil (this is the view that we shouldn't expect to know God's reasons for permitting evil) can be found in Stephen J. Wykstra's seminal "The Humean Obstacle to Evidential Arguments from Suffering: On Avoiding the Evils of ‘Appearance’," which can be found online here: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/philosophy/virtual_library/articles/wykstra_steve/on_avoiding_the_evils_of_appearance.pdf

There's plenty more good stuff out there, such as John Hick's soul-making theodicy and Richard Swinburne's knowledge/soul-making/free will theodicy, as well as several works of Robert Merrihew Adams, which can be found in his 1987 The Virtue of Faith, but I've already gone on too long.

Again, the above list is only for those who think there's any value to philosophy, and if a commenter above is right about Ross's opinion of philosophy, obviously none of this will be of interest to him.

David whines: "I have on a number of occasions brought up the issue of religious persecution in the name of atheism, some of it being proposed today by Dawkins (because his effort to stigmatize the religious education of children by conflating it with child abuse is in direct philosophical continuity with state sponsored persecution in the past). So far, no atheist on this blog has expressed the slightest concern about this. This dovetails with the literature of contemporary religious life where scholars have written little on anti-religious persecution in the past century."

If David feels Christians have been persecuted in the modern United States I'd like to see some examples, because that would be a ludicrous claim. While there are plenty instances of Christians persecuting members of other groups here (just take a look at the wackaloon evangelicals at the Air Force Academy) it would be the ultimate in narcissistic self-pity for him to claim victimhood.

His ongoing obsession with Dawkins and Hitchens is more than a little pathetic. I suspect David has been hawking a tedious little manuscript around to various publishers for a few years now and is getting nowhere.

Sorry if my comment above came off as snide; however, there are a lot of people (on the bloggingheads forums, for instance) who look at metaphysics as a big waste of time; moreover, this is a view that has been shared by a significant number of philosophers (e.g., the logical positivists, Wittgenstein, Rorty), so those who hold it may feel that there really is nothing to gain by thinking long and hard about these issues--it would only be so much navel-gazing. If you're one of those people, then I very much doubt that any of the books or articles (except perhaps Wykstra's) will be very interesting to you.

I don't know how I can restate this in a way you can understand. The reliability of Moses (or to be precise, the redactor of the Pentateuch) has _no relevance_ whatsoever to the reliability of St. John the Evangelist. The centerpiece of my faith is belief in Christ. I would have reason to believe in Christ even if the Gospels didn't exist and the only 'testimony' of Christ were dimly remembered legends. Be that as it may, the Gospels and Epistles do exist and their testimony is entirely separate from the The Old Testament is there for context and background, and arguably for moral instruction as well. However your view of the Old Testament is really pretty tangential to your view of Christ. One only has to look at the _style_ of the Gospels and compare them to Genesis. Genesis is written in the mythological style, and St. John's Gospel is written in a realistic and documentary style. One was _meant_ as a literal account in quite a different way than the other.

It seems to me that is the ultimate form of cafeteria Christianity. The veracity of the Old Testament was expounded as a central part of Christian doctrine for over a millenium, starting from the earliest attempts at organized Christianity. For all that time, the stories and accounts of the Old Testament were treated as a central part of Christianity. Even now, they still are for many Christians, which is why Tim LaHaye is searching for evidence of the biblical flood (Old Testament, last time I checked) and Christian conservatives who support discrimination against gays cite to Leviticus (also in the Old Testament, last time I checked).

I might add that even with John, you have real problems. The book of Revelation, allegedly authored by the same man who authored the Gospel of John, is not exactly the type of thing that an intelligent person should believe to be true. And, of course, John's accounts of the life of Jesus differ from the synaptic Gospels in many particulars. At best, someone is right and someone is wrong. More likely, they are all wrong.

Look, it's perfectly clear what is going on here. You don't want the obvious falsehoods throughout the Christian tradition (and let's not get into nonscriptural falsehoods preached over a couple of thousand years by Church authorities) to impugn the credibility of the texts from which you derive your hope of an eternal life. As I said, that is many things, but it is not a way to get to truth, either with or without a capital T.

Dear Dilan,

A final try - no, the "veracity" of the Hebrew Scriptures (if by that you mean a literalist reading of them) was not "a central part" or any part of Christian thought at all, much less for a thousand years. Please read St. Augustine's Confessions, written in the 4th century to see how he deals with such crude literalism. It can't be put any plainer than this - if you want to believe that we "can't see it" you may do so of course, but it aint so and anyone who knows the history of religion knows this. Please just glance at Jaroslav Pelikan's The Christian Tradition, Volume 1, p. 58-62 if you are interested in the facts. Pelikan points out that as early as Origen Christians felt the best way of reading the Hebrew scriptures was allegorically. The credibility of the Hebrew Scriptures as revelation never hinged in Christian thought on their literal meaning, especially in descriptions of the natural world. It's not that we can't see "the problem" but that the problem you are attempting to create did not exist prior to the rise of Biblically literalist Protestantism.

David

David, sorry, Augustine wasn't making any better argument that you are. In fact, at best, Augustine is simply showing that it was clear that the Bible contained a lot of BS even centuries ago.

The basic belief of St. Augustine and you that there is one God and that "He" created the universe comes from the same authors that got all this other stuff wrong. There's no way that you can call God the Creator, and there being no other gods as not a foundational principle of Chiristianity.

You just do not want to recognize the implications of the authors of Genesis being completely full of crap. And that's why you guys don't care about truth and scientists do.

David- This is just to thank you for your nice response to my comments.

Hector- It was nice of you to attempt to answer the problem of natural evil. I frankly do not find your explanation convincing in the least, as I think that it doesn't answer the question of why God permits the Devil to alter the natural conditions of the Universe in such a way as to make it possible for random illness and destruction to befall innocent creatures. It simply adds one more level of theological complexity, with a Devil now in the picture.

Dilan, your comments are getting dumber and dumber. (I'm a grad student in the hard sciences btw).

'The Bible' is not one book with one author, one purpose, and one standard of reliability. The only reason to believe it is would be either
1) if you think God dictated it all
2) if you think all of the books are sanctified by the authority of the undivided apostolic church
But being an agnostic, presumably you don't believe either of those things. The Bible was put together as a concensus project by churches who were trying to identify what they thought were inspired works. No one said it was a perfect process. Churches today disagree on what the Bible should contain. I believe one of the Eastern churches considers as scripture the beautiful book of Esdras, which among other things predicts the rise of Islam. The church of Ethiopia includes the Didache, which condemns abortion.

Your challenge could mean one of two things:
1) Is the belief that Jesus is the only son of God, divine in nature, born of a virgin, who performed miracles, died to save us from sin, rose from the dead, and ushered in the age of grace, logically contingent on the belief in the truth of the Old Testament?
2) Can you be an _orthodox apostolic Christian_ without believing in the literal truth of the Old Testament on questions of the origins of the earth, the origin of man, and so forth.

The answer to the first one is obviously yes, since all manner of Christian heretics believed in Christ while denying the Old Testament, and of course the Jews believed the opposite. The answer to the second question is subtler but also yes. The Catholic church at its most stringent (and I would assume the Orthodox as well) never held that the Old Testament was of value as a science book, they held it was free from error _in matters of faith and morals._

Furthermore, no one believes that "there is one God and that He created the earth" on the basis of the Old Testament. Rather they believe those two ideas first, and then they decide (or not) to accept the Old Testament as a description of what that God is like. In the basic Christian creeds the only thing you are required to believe about the Old Testament is that it prophecies Christ. That's its purpose, not to tell us about celestial mechanics or paleontology.

That's not to say that it has no relevance for scientific truth. I believe that the human soul is immaterial and immortal, for example, and that any materialistic account of human consciousness is bound to fail. I think that someday science will have to recognize this if it is still to remain faithful to the truth and to logic. But let me say again, faith in Christ has little to do with one's beliefs about the origins of the earth, and has even less to do with you think the Old Testament redactors are reliable 'witnesses'.

Dear Dilan,

If the Bible were the only or primary source of Christian faith, you might have a stronger point, but Jesus is that source for Christians, and He founded a community and Church which both affirmed much of the Jewish faith but moved Christians in very different directions with a new covenent, which includes a different way of seeing and placing the Hebrew Scriptures in the life of the Church. Christianity is founded upon a person about whom we have sacred scripture.

As to your accusation, I disagree. I do care deeply about truth, particularly understanding history. I think however that we've reached too much of an impasse, since, your assertion that I don't care about truth suggests that there is little point in us talking about this or any subject any longer, no?

If I could trouble you for one thing, however, could you tell me what you regard as the most important books in the history of science and of the relationship of science to religion? Thanks in advance.

Take care,

David

Dear Hector,

I applaud you for your patience, but I think Dilan's idee fixe is going to be proof against your efforts.

David

Re: The veracity of the Old Testament was expounded as a central part of Christian doctrine for over a millenium, starting from the earliest attempts at organized Christianity.

You are very wrong about this. Old Testament literalism is a modern phenomenon. The early Church was rather embarrassed by the Old Testament, not quite knowing what to do with it. They did weave the psalms into liturgy and ultimately develop a rather mystical view of a great many other parts of the OT, posoting that the Burning Bush foreshadowed Mary, the Ark foreshadowed the Church, etc. And Old ZTestament readings were not a regular part of most services in the way that New Testament readings were: that too is a modern development and is still unusual in my church.

Re: The book of Revelation, allegedly authored by the same man who authored the Gospel of John, is not exactly the type of thing that an intelligent person should believe to be true.

Revelation is the most intensely symbolic (and therefore non-literal) book in the Bible. It was fairly controversial in antiquity because no one really knew how to make a head or a tail out of it. The Church did admit it into Scripture, but declined to use it in its services. Down through history (including today) various people have claimed that they cracked its code (assuming that there is one) and have propounded apocalypses tieing contermporary events to Revelation. This is not a Church-blessed practice however.

Re: And, of course, John's accounts of the life of Jesus differ from the synoptic Gospels in many particulars.

And the Life of Alexander (the Great) written by Curtius Rufus differs quite a bit from that written by Plutarch which in turn has points of departure from Falvius Arianus' biography (who criticized the others for being too fanciful and gossipy). This is pretty normal for ancient sources. The discrepancies in the gospels no more disprove the main outline of Jesus' life and deeds, than those in Alexander's histories disprove his life and major accomplishments.

I'm late to the debate but I'd like to respond to something that was alluded to in Ross's post and has come up again in comments.

but I think one aspect of the argument that is interesting, and which Ross was trying to get at, is just how protected we are and how abstract the problem of evil is. In Africa, where the faith is growing by leaps and bounds (10 million in 1900, over 400 million Christians now) suffering is real yet there is not a lot of hand wringing over theodicy in a continent where all is not going wonderfully well. Here, where people are coseted from most harm, we are hair trigger quick to go to law or scream and rail against any kind of perceived or real injustice.

This is, to put it mildly, complete and total bullshit. I grew up in an African country, in a devout family that went to churches of varying denominations that were quite typical of churches in my country. BY FAR, the most frequent question asked by congregants of their religious leaders was some variation of "why did/does god not alleviate my suffering?"

There was plenty of "hand wringing" and anger and anguish about theodicy. The difference is - especially if you are poor - in Nigeria you have nowhere else to go. If your child contracts a disease (other than stuff like cholera and dysentary that government services and NGOs have done a real good job of treating) there's not much you can do but pray. Health services are sparse and relatively expensive. The vast majority of the poor and lower middle class have no access to health insurance. And it's much harder to believe in science and technology as potential saviors from suffering when you're illiterate and don't have access to running water. So Africans are less likely to abandon religious faith, but it's because they are less likely to have anywhere else to go; not because they don't share the same anger and anguish over the problem of evil.

As an analogy, the majority of divorces in the U.S. are initiated by women. In Nigeria, the divorce rate is significantly lower than it is in the U.S. In Nigeria, there are no alimony laws. It is still hard for a single woman to raise children on her own, and there is a stigma attached to divorced women that makes it hard to remarry.

Now imagine if someone were to say to an American woman, "look at all these Nigerian women who put up with infidelity and abuse from their husbands and yet don't file for divorce nearly as often as American women. I wonder if all these pampered women in the U.S. couldn't learn a thing or two from them."
I posit that:
-someone who said this would be a callous ass.
-people making the argument quoted above are acting the same way.

Dear WillieStyle,

My pardon about my lack of knowledge of the importance of theodicy in African religious life and thought - but it was being argued that the horrors of WWII were making people abandon Christianity and yet in Africa horror has not been a barrier to faith. That was my key point.

David

Sorry David, I didn't mean to jump on you in particular. Just wanted to point out my problems with that argument.

I'd like to continue in a somewhat similar vein to what Hector was saying about the problem of natural evil.

The whole reason suffering exists, I think, is that it is a reminder that the world is fallen - that we are not to become too attached to this existence. Death being a part of suffering, an Earth free of suffering would be essentially indistinguishable from Heaven - a blissful, immortal life free from want or care. And if one cannot die, there is no afterlife, there is no judgment - there is no reason to believe in God at all.

Of course free will does play a part in this as well, since human beings would not be allowed to cause suffering to each other. Perhaps even the idea of a suffering-free world is a logical impossibility, since there are people who desire suffering or physical pain, and there are people who desire death - and perhaps without such things they feel suffering!

Dear WillieStyle

When a wise man rebukes you, count it a kindness. No offense taken good sir, to the contrary. I want to understand African Christianity much better and appreciate your insights.

David

If the Bible were the only or primary source of Christian faith, you might have a stronger point, but Jesus is that source for Christians, and He founded a community and Church which both affirmed much of the Jewish faith but moved Christians in very different directions with a new covenent, which includes a different way of seeing and placing the Hebrew Scriptures in the life of the Church. Christianity is founded upon a person about whom we have sacred scripture.

But that church got so many basic things totally wrong for at least a thousand years. So your argument is circular-- point to the flaws in Scripture, and you say "but there's the Church". Point to the flaws in the Church, and you have-- what, exactly?

What you don't have is a scientific method, which includes the willingness to throw out even core beliefs if they don't stand up to scrutiny. You guys want to believe in your immortality, so you will never, ever, ever, call your faith into question, no matter how many of its underpinnings appear to be unreliable. You just say "well that wasn't really a part of the faith to begin with". That is called not caring about the truth. (Indeed, as Jack Nicholson might say, you can't handle the truth.)

And the Life of Alexander (the Great) written by Curtius Rufus differs quite a bit from that written by Plutarch which in turn has points of departure from Falvius Arianus' biography (who criticized the others for being too fanciful and gossipy). This is pretty normal for ancient sources. The discrepancies in the gospels no more disprove the main outline of Jesus' life and deeds, than those in Alexander's histories disprove his life and major accomplishments.

But there's a big difference, Jon. You see, if it turns out that both Rufus' and Plutarch's accounts are quite wrong on key details (which could very well be the case given the conflicts), and that we really don't know what we think we know about Alexander the Great, that's a matter of historical curiosity. Nobody's belief system stands or falls based on what Alexander's life was really like.

In contrast, you guys are making big-time truth claims that depend on SOMETHING in scripture being right. And what you want to do is simply ignore everything in there (and in the Christian tradition) that is wrong. If Plutarch's and Rufus' accounts, in addition to being contradictory, were shown to have major errors, and further, if an entire academic discipline was founded that for 2,000 years expounded and expanded on those errors, creating an entire mythology about Alexander that had no relationship to what actually happened, I wouldn't say that someone who blindly swore that the key events in those texts were all true was someone who knew what "truth" actually is. And I would say that the scientific method will lead to a lot more truth than that person's method does.

You have to believe two things simultaneously-- that the "important" parts of Scripture are absolutely true (INCLUDING Genesis, because monotheism, including Christian monotheism, comes from that source) while the fact that so many other parts are unmitigated total made up BS has no effect on the credibility of the "important" parts.

As I said, the real point here is you guys want to be immortal, so you don't want to entertain any argument that might lead you to conclude you aren't.

Dear Dilan,

Right you are if you say you are. We get it, we can't let go of our immortality and so can't question our religion. Now, please tell me what you regard as the most important books in the history of science? I am quite serioius since I do work on the history of eugenics in my spare time, which, alas, has not strengthened my faith in science's self-correcting power for reasons I have already given (i.e. eugenics was not refuted decisively by scientists until after it went out of fashion politically).

Thanks,

David

Dilan writes: "You have to believe two things simultaneously-- that the "important" parts of Scripture are absolutely true (INCLUDING Genesis, because monotheism, including Christian monotheism, comes from that source) while the fact that so many other parts are unmitigated total made up BS has no effect on the credibility of the "important" parts.

As I said, the real point here is you guys want to be immortal, so you don't want to entertain any argument that might lead you to conclude you aren't."

Of course. And they'll immediately ignore or dismiss scholars who point out that the early Hebrews were polytheists, and that the notion of an unbroken chain from Adam to Jesus is a complete joke. They want to have their narrative be uncluttered. They also want to be able to deny the unsavory nature of the Old Testament god because it doesn't sell well in the modern world.

More than anything else, they're salesmen and they'll only disclose what they see as the positive side of their product.

I'm a scientist, and somewhat of a follower of Popper - i.e., we cannot prove (scientific) theories right, we can only prove them wrong. This does not mean that we are always closer to the truth either - if we pick a wrong branch early in the game, it could foreseeably happen that we continue on that wrong tack for a very long time before we have to eventually back-up all the way to the wrong branch / fork in the road / whatever your favourite analogy is. I always find it a tad funny when people assume that the voice of science is the voice of truth (oh my, if they only knew.... almost like not knowing how laws and sausages are made).

But as to the problem of good and evil etc - I sometimes think of how Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion, that although much evil and pain etc followed from the descision of the Eldar to leave the blessed realm, much great poetry, bravery, heroism, sacrifice and songs followed, without which the history of middle earth would have been so much poorer (my paraphrase). As somebody who has suffered just a little bit, I somehow find myself agreeing.

David and Scylding:

When I say that science is a process that leads to truth, you two are deliberately misinterpreting this to mean that everything science produces IS truth. Not so. Nor is even good science immune from misuse by ideologues. (Religion has that problem too.)

Scylding is correct that science can say things are false but not definitively say they are true. But that overlooks that determining what is false and developing new hypotheses consistent with the known data is a great way of moving towards truth.

You guys want to stop science at any particular time, like the 1930's, and point out how much BS scientists peddled. But that's not the point. The point is the process allows science to move beyond that.

In contrast, you guys are stuck with the BS that religion peddled, because the conclusions that there is one God, that Jesus is the son of that God, and that Jesus is going to guarantee you immortality are nonnegotiable.

The scientific method isn't perfect, and lots of things with the label "science" have been and will be untrue. But the method of organized religion not only isn't perfect, it's garbage, and there's no basis to think that ANY contested proposition put forth by an organized religion has any particular likelihood of being true.

It's simply the difference between people who care about truth and people who rule off the table from the outset any reasoning that might lead them to question their immortality.

Dear Dilan, Scylding and ML&J,

I understand your view. I also don't believe there is any point in me saying anything to you on this or any other controversial point because you've already said I don't care about truth, hence you must simply disbelieve any and all of my arguments because they proceed from bad faith/intellectual cowardice. You have been crystal clear that disagreeing with your reading of things is the equivilent of saying 2+2=5. It would however be a service to me if you could make bibliographical recomendations on the books about the history of science that you regard as most important, since the whole point of your argument is that knowledge of the history of science demonstrates the invalidity of religious reasoning. I suppose you might be afraid that I'm really hoping to steal and burn the books, but then the library will be likely as not to catch me and order more and newer editions of such books, so really you are risking little.

Dear Scylding, thank you for demonstrating a true scholarly temperment that understands the power and limitations of what your work can do. But it is probably not worth your effort to engage Dilan, he knows he's right.

And ML&J I just scroll past when you post, so please preserve your pixels and the valuable resources they represent if you are trying to write to me. If you are writing about me, well and good, at least you are not sliming someone who might read your screeds or doing anything effectively malicious. But have a good life, nonetheless and I hope if Sen. Obama wins that some of the hatred and contempt you feel for many of your fellow countrymen will subside for a time (And yes, I'm presuming that your self-proclaimed progressivism and hunger for political vindication at all costs makes you less than likely to vote for Nader, but I sincerely beg your pardon if I am wrong - and I am glad for the post you wrote in reply to mine on Marxism. I hope that your hatred of stupidity, even what you regard as my stupidity might be attached to a stronger love of the good. You've not demonstrated that in any of the posts you've written that I have read, and I am done reading your posts so I will never know, but I still hope it is so).

Be well,

David

Dilan - you misunderstand my tree analogy. I'm not claiming anything about the "truthiness" of current science - I'm just pointing out the possibility of a long term development in science barking up the wrong tree. I certainly do not want to stop science (at the 1930's or any other time) - and neither did I make any religious claims in my argument above.

So your little tirade against religion is quite amusing - guilt by association perhaps? Not all believers are flaming fundamentalists of a specific stripe.

But science is a pragmatic enterprise (which theory best describes & predicts...), and not fundamentally concerned with truth. Heck, one can even start putting holes in the very basic assumptions of science (like using Godel's incompleteness theorem for one), if you are philosophically sophisticated enough, which I certainly don't claim to be.

Dear Scylding and Bad,

This actually takes us to an article recommended above about Pascal at Touchstone. While the article is polemical, one of the points is precisely what you are raising Scylding, that absolutely thorough going scepticism a'la Hume rejects the idea that even the best science gets us much past the claim that we observe certain, usually regular conjunctions of phenomenon, and that therefore there is no Truth or truth at all. So, since reason and science demonstrates that we cannot even "prove" the truth of physical phenomenon, how much more likely that they will not reveal God to us. For that, Pascal counsels looking to our hearts. I don't like the approach so much but it is interesting to see how Pascal already anticipated Humean scepticism and later scientific humility, and their consequences for faith.

Thanks much Scylding.

David

David may well be the most pompous neo-con alive, which is amazing considering what a bullfrog Bloody Billy Kristol is: "But have a good life, nonetheless and I hope if Sen. Obama wins that some of the hatred and contempt you feel for many of your fellow countrymen will subside for a time"

The hatred and contempt I mainly reserve for the leadership you revere so much, but as time goes on and the country's situation gets worse I have developed a disgust for the more ridiculously craven Repiglican toadies out there. Mostly I'm ashamed that my country placed such worthless pigs in office and that the US is now a nation that uses torture and secret prisons as a matter of national policy. I just hope things get better after the White House is deloused and a few more of the more disgusting Bush-slurpers are bounced out of Congress and the Senate.

Enjoy the ride.

Re: I just hope things get better after the White House is deloused

You might want to put your religious skpeticism on hold long enough to get behind having a formal exorcism performed on the White House once Bush is out.

Re: You see, if it turns out that both Rufus' and Plutarch's accounts are quite wrong on key details (which could very well be the case given the conflicts), and that we really don't know what we think we know about Alexander the Great, that's a matter of historical curiosity.

Unless someone invents a time machine (and there are good reasons to believe that's impossible) then we will never know the truth, not about the disputed details of Alexander nor about the discrepancies in Jesus' life. Something not well appreciated by people who insist on over-determining reality, is that we don't just have multiple possible futures, we also have multiple possible pasts. Where these pasts (or futures) cohere the picture becomes very sharp and focused; where they do not cohere the picture is a bit blurred. This isn't theology by the way: it's quantum physics. "Objective truth" is the biggest myth of all.

Ok, referring some other issues earlier in this conversation:

The LRA in Uganda is an abherrent group which use some Christian terminology to serve their own nefarious purposes. Really, it is not a new trick, it is an old one.

The Nazi's & Christianity: The Nazi's were as little Christian as Dawkins himself, however they used and abused the church to their own ends, and shame on the many who allowed it. But there was also resistance, such as Bonhoeffer - go read about him, a real 20th century martyr.

Not all Christians are of the conservative, Republican type - especially outside the US! There are Christians all over the politcal spectrum. I'm not on the right (but then I'm in Canada - does that count?)

But all these are side issues, guilt-by-association arguments etc. They did not address the original argument. And when it comes to guilt-by-association, I think nobody can do worse than the arch-atheists, who have both Stalin and Mao. But hey, I don't believe in guilt-by-association - it is an infantile manner of argument.

Have yourselves a good night, folks (if you're in North America, that is...)

Scylding,

Just as a point of information, Mao doesn't appear to have been a strict atheist (according to the Catholic anticommunist scholar Kołakowski, who had no particular reason to make this up).

JonF,

Indeed. I will never cease to laugh when Chavez tried to exorcise the podium after Bush spoke at the UN.

JonF says: "You might want to put your religious skpeticism on hold long enough to get behind having a formal exorcism performed on the White House once Bush is out."

Couldn't hurt. Let's do it.

But science is a pragmatic enterprise (which theory best describes & predicts...), and not fundamentally concerned with truth.

You confuse intent and effect. Eventually, and perhaps with a lot of false start, the scientific method will over time lead us towards greater truth. Not because scientists set out to "find the truth", but because the method of emperical observation and falsification is a good way of narrowing the pool of potential false hypotheses, which makes it more likely that we can find the truth.

Religion is simply not playing in that ballpark, because certain hypotheses have to be taken as nonnegotiably true because of the desires of the believer for immortality.

Bad,

"conradg: you sound like precisely the sort of believer I aimed this post at: namely, someone who sees scriptures as a source of deep insight into spiritual matters rather than specially purified communications direct from God. The question, and it is a sincere one and not a trick question for which I would accept no reasonable answer, at that point becomes whether you think the traditional form of the Bible reflects this point of view in its construction and special limitations on content."

Sorry for not noticing this post of yours until this morning. I would consider the Bible to be a literary work which uses the literary device of "speaking from the voice of God". I don't take that voice literally, however. It's a dramatic device, and a good one I'm sure for certain purposes, but I think it's a mistake when people reify it into "the authoritative Word of God." The Bible old and new is a pastiche from many sources, put together as a literary work with many motives in mind, accuracy not being chief among them. But providing rational explanations for the natural world is also not very high on the list either. The kinds of creation stories described in the Bible read to me not as literal attempts at natural history, but at symbolic attempts to communicate esoteric, even mystical truths about the nature of the world in spiritual terms. It is only by deciphering their mystical symbolism that we can begin to understand them, not by comparing them to scientific theories of creation or evolution.

"Objective truth" is the biggest myth of all.

I understand the philosophy behind this statement, but it is a poor excuse for a religious believer. Either Muhammed rose from Jerusalem on his steed or he didn't. Either Moses parted the Red Sea or he didn't. Either Jesus was resurrected or he wasn't. Religions make factual historical claims that are crucial to their belief systems. And even the most postmodern thinkers and the most committed quantum physicists don't claim that there is no such thing as a historical event occurring, or that one can assess the probabilities of something having occurred by looking at the veracity of those who claim that it did.

Dilan,

"Eventually, and perhaps with a lot of false start, the scientific method will over time lead us towards greater truth."

QED - your faith is strong. To have that fiath in the scientific enterprise, you have to have belief in the following:

1. The veracity of the senses.
2. The inherent trustworthiness of logic, and its foundations: Why do I say A? Well, because of B. Well then, why do I say B. Because of C etc etc. When you eventually reach Z, you'll have to take something "by faith".
3. You have to presume that there is a finite number of explanations / theories. If not, you may literally never be closer to the truth. And you'll never know if you've reached it either.

These are pretty big articles of faith. The ability to self-doubt should be strongly entrenched in those searching for truth, scientifically or otherwise. I'm afraid the intelectual postering of the materialist view you have been espousing here is pretty weak. One wonders if the rabid anti-religious sentiment you display have some other cause... But I hold you no ill. If you ever come up north, I'll be happy to have a pint with you (the beer is good here!).

Regards,
The Scylding

Scylding:

Look, at this point you are just making silly 400 year old arguments against empiricism. Since you actually do trust your senses, and do trust logic, and do trust scientific conclusions (I assume you take an asprin when you have a headache and go to the doctor or the hospital when you are injured), this sort of thing is just a form of mental masturbation.

So yes, I concede, if we decide that nothing we perceive or reason can be trusted, then religion stands at an equal relationship with the truth as science does.

But since none of us actually believes that, and no intelligent person would, that is a rather unconvincing defense of religion.

Dear Dilan,

Could you tell me which authors on the history of science you trust? I really do want to know.

David

Dear Dilan,

And I'm not simply trying to embarrass you, but you've laid a great deal of stress on how knowing this branch of history simply blows away the claims of faith (and it allows you to parry questions with a priori assertions of bad faith with those who disagree). In a sense, it appears you are building a cognitive trap as conducive to dogmatism as any you think you see among believers, since your argument hinges upon a KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY, but you have yet to name any historical work to which an enquirer should turn to learn the obvious errors of religion in relation to science.

As a professional historian, I rarely find any historiographical school being that definitive, so I'm interested in hearing what works on this subject you've explored. Because, to be as honest as a believer in sky fairies can be, frankly you sound like you are simply recycling Dawkins' grandiose claims for science.

Sincerely,

David

David:

My argument is not based on a history of science. It is based on the emperical successes of science and the fact that science, by its very nature of ruling out false hypotheses over time, is a far superior means of disovering truth as compared to organized religion, which rules some claims off the table because of the believer's desire for immortality.

So a question regarding texts about the history of science is no more relevant to my argument than a question regarding my favorite color or who I think will win the NBA Finals.

I might add one other thing. I have conceded, a million times over, that science has gotten some things dead wrong, and also that science has been used for terrible ends in the past. And I have conceded that these things will happen again in the future. It's almost as if you think this is some killer argument against anyone claiming that science is superior to religion as a means to find truth, and you are left flailing about when someone argues on different ground.

The fact is, my argument with organized religion isn't that science has a perfect track record, it is that science uses a method that is capable of correcting errors over time and generating useful results for society, whereas religion sacrifices any pursuit of truth in favor of making sure that falsehoods that believers really want to believe are never called into question. It's a long run argument; science can certainly foul up in the short run.

Dear Dilan,

Yet, as Keynes said, in the long run we'll all be dead (and given some of the directions modern science has pushed us, it is as likely as not to be through science as not, particularly if we are on our own). But I am sorry I've been laboring under the apprehension that history mattered to you. My mistake proceeds from the following you wrote above:

"Anyone who gains a familiarity with the HISTORY of the sciences as well as the state of modern knowledge is going to run into some extremely uncomfortable facts about religion. Basically, this is the area in which organized religions, including Christianity, made the most egregious ignorant and disproven claims over the years."

I thought that you were speaking from some sense of knowledge of the field/facts in question rather than recycling the claims of a Dawkins or a laugh line you heard in Biology 101. But to be clear on one thing, I don't think the history of science, or indeed, any other kind of argument is a "killer argument"/demonstrates that everyone who does not instantly assent to what I propose must be arguing out of fear or bad faith. But then I don't think intellectuals rule out vast areas of human experience and inquiry (like the validity of religion) based on a few a priori assumptions.

But I'll let it rest here. I really do understand your argument though, so thank you. When someone says that I am intellectually dishonest or an intellectual coward on the basis of little more than an assumption about my motives due to their own a priori assumptions, I also realize the conversation is done. I just wanted to let you know why I pursued this line of inquiry on history. A bit of friednly advice however, if I may - in the future you might make it clear that you don't actually know or care about the history of either science or religion when you launch into your next round of ex cathedra pronouncements/fatwas about who is or is not intellectually honest. It will make for more mutually efficient interaction with believers who want to engage in real searching.

Sincerely,

David

Just a quick comments on Dilan's latest gems. Since you mentioned the Apocalypse of St. John, I'm curious to know what about it gets your goat. I suspect that your problem is you don't really understand it. Don't feel bad- no one really understands the book of Revelation, because it deals with Heaven and Hell, things which by their very nature surpass human understanding. Even if you can't understand it, though, you ought to be able to appreciate the rich symbolism and the beauty of the vision of heaven described therein. Since you (presumibly) consider yourself a man of the left (do you?) I'm rather surprised you don't like the Apocalypse. That book has been one of the richest sources of inspiration (for both good and ill, but mostly for good) to political and social revolutionaries in the last 2,000 years. Not surprisingly, because it quite clearly identifies Satan with the great centers of wealth and power in its day (Babylon and by extension, Rome).

It needs to be understood that the book expresses its ideas through symbols. Don't get hung up on the symbols, look for the deeper meaning. For example the seven headed beast represents Rome; read in this light, and in the light of what we now know of later history, Revelation 17 is actually a remarkably accurate symbolic portrayal of the fall of Rome in the fifth century AD.

Re: Religion is simply not playing in that ballpark, because certain hypotheses have to be taken as nonnegotiably true because of the desires of the believer for immortality.

Every system of thought, including science, has certain axioms that are accepted as true and fundamental.

re: I understand the philosophy behind this statement, but it is a poor excuse for a religious believer.

This is not offered as an "excuse". It was offered as an insight from quantum physics.

Re: And even the most postmodern thinkers and the most committed quantum physicists don't claim that there is no such thing as a historical event occurring

I did not say there was no such thing as history. I said that there is an irreducible uncertainty about history to the point that Event X either did or did not happen depneding on what superposition of the past one selects.

Re: It is based on the emperical successes of science and the fact that science, by its very nature of ruling out false hypotheses over time, is a far superior means of disovering truth as compared to organized religion

You have misnderstood science. Science deals with regular, recurring phenomena. Science can predict planetary orbits or the decay of radioative isotopes. It cannot tell us anything about non-regular, anomalous events. Those are not within the purview of science at all. You are not talking about science at all, but about scientism, a purely metaphysical position which you are advancing on faith.

Dear Hector,

An interesting German Thomist, Josef Pieper pointed out once (I think it is in an essay "The End of Time") how Kant in his discussion of theories of history outlined three theories that were most common. Kant claimed that history is either a story of progress, circularity or decline/fall (my own practice of history - it is a lot of stuff that happened/a mystery).

Pieper, writing after 1945, noted the irony of how Kant summarily dismissed the decline/fall thesis. According to Kant such a thesis was self-refuting because if humanity once fell from a state of perfection then it would be possible for us to could destroy ourselves and that was "obviously ridiculous." It is striking how on the other side of the 20th century the apocalypse by our own hand doesn't seem nearly so fantastic. And there is a certain elegence in your advocacy of socialism and recognition of the dangers of wealth - the one certainly protects against the other (and of course, all jesting aside, you could very well be right).

Pax,

David

PS: And JonF, thank you for a well-written and argued post.

David,

There's also, of course, more complex narratives of history- one could see history as a simultaneous story of decline and improvement, with good constantly getting better and bad constantly getting worse, until the final apocalypse. C.S. Lewis suggests something along these lines in his 'Perelandra' novels.

Just a quick comments on Dilan's latest gems. Since you mentioned the Apocalypse of St. John, I'm curious to know what about it gets your goat.

That only an idiot would believe it.

Seriously, some things are self-refuting. The Book of Revelation is one of them-- it reads like an acid trip.

Science deals with regular, recurring phenomena. Science can predict planetary orbits or the decay of radioative isotopes. It cannot tell us anything about non-regular, anomalous events.

Sure it can. Science can tell us about whether the events in the Book of Mormon occurred.

It can also tell us that there is a ton of BS in the holy scriptures of Christianity as well as the first 2000 of church teaching.

It's just that Christian believers want to be immortal and therefore rule off the table any questioning of that belief.

Dear Hector,

Indeed, and I think there is a lot of merit to Lewis' musings in this. When I invoke mystery I'm simply registering my sense of how at times it can be awfully hard to know the difference between good and evil. That the righteous rage many on the left made them felt for the poor could turn them into murderous commissars, or how those watching said commissars in action (or their current, jihadnik varient) could determine to do "anything" to oppose them makes me very careful in my evaluations of good and evil.

And from what little I know of the history of the interpretation and reception of Revelations, it is interesting to note how many who are most impoverished and downtrodden find it a great source of hope. Jenkins, in his books on the growth of Christianity in Africa mentions this.

Take care - I hope your work is going well. We are just wrapping up final exams here but soon it will be off to research nirvana, Bogu niech bede dzieki.

Czesc,

David

Dear JonF,

Dilan is referring to the Wayback Machine of course, since that is the only way with which I am familiar that "science" as opposed to history can do what he is proposing. Pity he didn't recognize that the animation was one of the subtle semiotic signs that this machine wasn't entirely a working model nor the scenarios which the lead characters investigated weren't completely based on fact. This is one of those areas where understanding history can be of marginal use.

David

Dear JonF,

Dilan must be referring to the Wayback Machine of course, since that is the only way with which I am familiar that "science" as opposed to history with all of its flaws and limits can do what he is proposing. Pity he didn't recognize that the animation was one of the subtle semiotic signs that this machine wasn't entirely a working model nor the scenarios which the lead characters investigated weren't completely based on fact. This is one of those areas where understanding history can be of marginal use.

David

Dilan,

I'll get to your analogy in a moment. It's clear you don't view the Apocalypse of John as inspired scripture. Can you at least appreciate it as great literature? It is clearly a book that speaks to something deep in the human psyche, and that people from a variety of classes, nations, and ethnic groups have found a great deal of meaning for 2,000 years- it seems to me that that would be the only true test of literary quality. But then I suppose my literary taste does run to the apocalyptic- I enjoy reading apocalypses from a variety of traditions including Jewish, Christian, Christian apocrypha, Hindu, Buddhist and Zoroastrian prophecies of the end of the world. It's interesting- and in my view a testimony to something basic in the fabric of the world- that the thought processes of several different cultures run on such similar lines.

As for your drug analogy, it's interesting you say that. Why do you think that people can mimic mystical experience and religious vision through the use of mind-bending drugs? Drugs don't give us imagination, after all, they enhance the imagination that we already possess. The real reason is that the capacity and drive to experience the mystical is a built in feature of our minds, as basic as our drive for food or sex. The reason that acid trips seem similar (in your mind) to the inspired visions of St. John, is because a acid-fueled reverie is, at best, a etiolated and inferior copy of genuine religious experience. In a similar way as an adulterous affair (at best) is an inferior copy of true marriage, or cherry Kool-Aid is an inferior reflection of real cherries, or a suburban lawn is a pale copy of a mountain meadow. In each case we have a drive to pursue the false good because it has some superficial similarity to a real and enduring good.

The problem with your (reductionist) world view is that you seek to explain the higher in terms of the lower, whereas you should be explaining the lower in terms of the higher. The whole reason science works (i.e. the universe is rational) is because the power that made the physical laws of our universe was a rational mind.