Yes, of course the Hitler comparisons are absurd, but I'd really like to know which genius on the Obama campaign thought it would be a good idea to have their candidate conduct a major campaign rally in Europe with three months to go till the election and their candidate, despite an incredibly favorable climate and a fumbling opponent, still clinging to a 2-4 point lead in the polls? Overall, the overseas tour has been good to Obama, both for the obvious reasons and because making joint appearances with foreign leaders is a solid-enough way to build up his credibility as a potential Commander-in-Chief. But photo ops are one thing, Beatlemania-style rallies are quite another - and having your candidate appear in front of tens of thousands of adoring European fans when your campaign's biggest problem, as John Judis puts it today, is that "Obama remains the 'mysterious stranger' rather than the 'American Adam' to too many voters who are put off rather than attracted by his race and exotic background" strikes me as the height of political folly. The Berlin rally probably won't hurt Obama - voters aren't really paying attention to anything election-related right about now, and it'll be forgotten by the time the fall campaign begins in earnest. But it could do some minor damage, and it certainly won't help him. (If he's counting on the expat vote to put him over the top, then he's in more trouble than anyone thinks.) Is it too late to call the whole thing off?
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Obama In Berlin
23 Jul 2008 03:13 pm
Comments (133)
Isn't this all McCain's idea?
Wasn't it McCain's idea that Obama needed to validate himself as a Commander-in-Chief and Foreign Policy President? And if so, isn't a demonstration of an Obama administration's soft power one of the predicates? And if so, isn't a public campaign event such as the one in Berlin a demonstration of that predicate?
The flaw in your thesis is that voters don't know this "mysterious stranger" Obama. You have to live in a cave to not know about Obama. The problem is that a large percent of America won't vote for a black man. I don't see how a visit to Germany really changes the Appalachian racist vote any, but it may help to solidify some of his base in the party. Isn't that what is really at play here?
The Sour Grapes of Wrath, by Ross Douthat
You might be right, but aren't they expecting like a million people for this speech? And mostly Americans won't care, but if Obama can draw ridiculous numbers of Europeans for a campaign appearance, I think it may allay fears that he won't command international respect or is somehow lacking foreign policy experience.
In my post at 3:46pm, I meant to write
Wasn't in McCain's idea that Obama needed to validate himself as a Commander-in-Chief and Foreign Policy President by traveling abroad?
Apologies.
I remember a similar post when mccain went overseas.
Not by Ross though.
The surge! The surge!
Tell me again why a Democratic candidate should be taking advice from political strategist (posing as political philosopher) Ross Douthat? Does Ross really think we're that stupid, or is he just getting in the requisite post-per-three-days that he so prides himself on?
(Remember that GOP work ethic -- it's up-by-his-bootstraps-Douthat, breakin' a sweat at last!)
to be fair, Ross has upped his output significantly since the bad old days of a post-per-three days; he still must think we're stupid, though.
Let's see how the speech plays out first. Showing that he has the power to persuade our allies in Europe while also strengthening America's popularity would be a very Sullivanian (and stark) contrast with the Bush Administration, indeed. I agree that there are a multitude of pitfalls for him along the way, but his campaign has shown that they "get it" more often than not, so if his Berlin speech weren't centered around some Souljah-esque rejection of anti-Americanism, or even some milder challenge for Europe to shoulder more responsibility, I'd be extremely surprised.
I'm not sure why anyone thinks that Obama's pressing need is to show how much the Germans like him. Germany is a country that is increasingly irrelevant to the world, not least because its birth rate is among the lowest in the world, and because German (unlike, say, French, Spanish, Russian or Portuguese) is a language that virtually no one speaks outside Germany and its immediate neighbors.
But if Obama feels such a pressing need to make a campiagn stop in the nation that carried out the greatest exercise in evil in modern times, then more power to him.
Have the seas started to lower yet? Maybe his speech will talk about that.
I honestly cannot think that Sen. Obama's trip overseas (at Mccain's urging BTW) is driving republicans and conservatives downright mad. I mean really mad. Not angry but CRAZY. Lets look at the evidence. First, the Mccain has been making divisive and unbecoming of a statesman attacks which borderline call Sen. Obama a traitor (i.e. rather win election than lose war)2. his surrogates have been making CRAZY baseless accusations all week.(ex. Sen. Obama doesnt care about the troops and b/c he doesnt support the surge he would have rather have American troops die...or something stupid like that) Some are really funny for their inconsistency. His a flip flopper and inflexible for example.
Third: Now that Mr. Obama has passed every single one of the media's and converative's "test" ...he has to be careful b/c he too popular overseas b/c the white working class may be offended. And you call him elitist? Wow. Now to make sure that the Doctors aren't confused he is being accused of being hilter (Ross you are really transparent w/ your denial nondenial links to low life attacks) b/c he is giving a speech in OH NO Germany and his flyers are in written in OMG german. I'm literally LMAO right now. At this point he may loose the election but watching the media and conservatives loose their flipping minds has been gratifying enough.
Thanx
I honestly cannot think that Sen. Obama's trip overseas (at Mccain's urging BTW) is driving republicans and conservatives downright mad. I mean really mad. Not angry but CRAZY.
This post seems to miss it entirely. He's going to get, as he has been getting, incredible media coverage because of this trip; whether voters traditionally start "paying attention" in the fall is irrelevant - the media is saturated with Obama coverage, so people have no choice but to pay attention.
Obama's trip, moreover, is effective (and his speech in Berlin will be effective) precisely because it makes him look presidential, not because it makes him seem European. Americans like to think of their leaders commanding the respect of the world. Obama has been showing that he does, and his Berlin speech is meant to accomplish that. His aim is to seem like a contemporary cross between Kennedy and Reagan. It's going to work, and the images that come from hundreds of thousands of adoring Europeans listening to Obama talk about the U.S. role in the world will be extremely powerful.
So I think Ross just doesn't get it.
I honestly cannot help but think that Sen. Obama's trip overseas (at Mccain's urging BTW) is driving republicans and conservatives downright mad. I mean really mad. Not angry but CRAZY. Lets look at the evidence. First, Mccain has been making divisive and unbecoming of a statesman attacks, which borderline call Sen. Obama a traitor (i.e. rather win election than lose war)Second: His surrogates have been making CRAZY baseless accusations all week.(ex. Sen. Obama doesn't care about the troops and b/c he doesn't support the surge he would rather have American troops die...or something stupid like that) Some are really funny for their inconsistency. His a flip flopper and inflexible for example.
Third: Now that Mr. Obama has passed every single one of the media's and converative's "test" ...he has to be careful b/c he's too popular overseas b/c the white working class may be offended. And you call him elitist? Wow. Now to make sure that that the Doctors aren't confused he is being accused of being hilter (Ross you are really transparent w/ your denial nondenial links to low life attacks) b/c he is giving a speech in OH NO Germany and his flyers are written in OMG german. I'm literally LMAO right now. At this point he may loose the election but watching the media and conservatives lose their flipping minds has been gratifying enough.
Thanx
The simple contrast between the jeering throngs who greet Bush in Europe and the adoring masses Obama will draw is enough in my opinion to justify the trip. I know the conventional wisdom is that anything Europeans like Americans must distrust, but that is utter B.S. Most of us would love to see another JFK. The real danger of the trip is that it makes Obama look a bit pompous and disconnected from the real ground war in 2008: the American economy.
Stopwinning - stop posting. I'm not LMAO right now. Literally.
Bad week, Ross?
Didn't you get invited to the oil rig with McCain? Oh, I forgot. They cancelled. Another hurricane in the gulf, another oil spill. (And the tanker the barge that spilled oil collided with was filled with fuel, heading overseas. Yeah, we really need to drill for more oil here.)
Maybe it's time for conservatives to find a new candidate? Looks like the one you've got doesn't know geography, economics, environmentalism, science, or have any kind of an in with God to control the weather.
There may be a longer term vision in play here. Everyone knows Obama will have to leverage European countries for additional commitment to the Middle East and Afghanistan as president, let alone get along with them on an ongoing basis to deal with Russia, resolve trade and foreign policy issues, etc. Tomorrow in Berlin he will attract more Europeans to a political speech than anyone else in Europe is capable of.
That gives him a pretty interesting backdrop - when he becomes president - to approach the Europeans with requests.
I'm writing from Berlin - this city will turn out en masse tomorrow to see him. Within Europe, this will be a pan-European and elsewhere, a transatlantic event, not least thanks to US coverage.
Gute Nacht and Go Obama 08,
Koch
"Germany is a country that is increasingly irrelevant to the world, not least because its"
...the 4th largest economy in the world?
Stopwinning - stop posting. I'm not LMAO right now. Literally.
Posted by Gordon Lightfoot | July 23, 2008 4:34 PM
I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to press send before proof reading. I'll be more careful next time. So sorry. But you have to admit, the conservatives have been really funny this week. They are losing their royal flipping minds. LMAO literally. lol
I cannot wait to see you eat these words tomorrow. Obama will bring his A game for this speach and make us feel good to be Americans again. How is McCain going to compete with that?
SATSQ:
1) Because it makes him look presidential.
2) Because anybody who thinks that Europeans flocking to hear a speech by the American president instead of protesting and throwing eggs and rotten fruit at him is a BAD thing was never voting for Obama anyway, so to hell with them.
Can we get a list of all the good advice Ross Douthat and John Judis have given Barack Obama?
I'm really surprised he hasn't hired you two guttersnipes yet.
Yes, Ross, we know how concerned you are about Obama. I'm sure he'll take your concerns into account.
I don't know why you you wouold write something so silly. It's a bonanza for Obama, especially once everyone see's he is respected overseas as well. Do you think McCain would ever get such on ovation? Being tough hasn't really helped the U.S. now has it..
It is sad to see how pathetic conservatism has become. Two fallacies in Ross's analysis. First, Americans don't hate the rest of the world. Second, the rest of the world does not hate Americans or America. The problem Europe has with America is Bush. One thing 9/11 showed is that, for the most part, the rest of the world, and Europe in particular, has a high regard for the U.S. Americans, while not always all that interested in the rest of the world, understand that we need allies to protect our interests. One,of the many, disasters of the last 8 years is the way in which Bush has driven a wedge between America and the rest of the world. Although some Republicans think that it is bad if other nations respect an American political leader, most Americans don't accept that. In 2004, John Kerry talked about America joining the world again. Obama has shown us, in the last week, what that looks like. And it looks good. As for McCain, he can't even figure out when the surge began
It is sad to see how pathetic conservatism has become. Two fallacies in Ross's analysis. First, Americans don't hate the rest of the world. Second, the rest of the world does not hate Americans or America. The problem Europe has with America is Bush. One thing 9/11 showed is that, for the most part, the rest of the world, and Europe in particular, has a high regard for the U.S. Americans, while not always all that interested in the rest of the world, understand that we need allies to protect our interests. One,of the many, disasters of the last 8 years is the way in which Bush has driven a wedge between America and the rest of the world. Although some Republicans think that it is bad if other nations respect an American political leader, most Americans don't accept that. In 2004, John Kerry talked about America joining the world again. Obama has shown us, in the last week, what that looks like. And it looks good. As for McCain, he can't even figure out when the surge began
Hector writes:
-- Germany is a country that is increasingly irrelevant to the world, not least because its birth rate is among the lowest in the world, and because German (unlike, say, French, Spanish, Russian or Portuguese) is a language that virtually no one speaks outside Germany and its immediate neighbors.
Felt like demonstrating utter cluelessness there, Hector? Germany is by far the largest nation in the EU and is, along with France, the driving force of that union. It is hardly "irrelevant."
I have noticed in the past, however, that concern about low "birth rate" in Europe is usually accompanied by concern about caliphates and which side of Ummagumma is the best.
Ross, can we please wait and actually listen to the speech before judging Obama's Berlin appearance a failure? It's not entirely photo ops and stagecraft. His message may actually influence how the event is perceived.
Hector, don't you think Germany has changed just a bit since 1945? For one thing, it's generally home to more antiwar sentiment than the U.S. (Gasp!) So I'm not sure where you're going with that "greatest exercise in evil" notion -- surely not trying to associate Obama in some way with Hitler et al.?
Ross is a concern troll.
Yes, of course the Hitler comparisons are absurd, butRoss, I really want you to explain yourself, here. If the Hitler comparisons are absurd, why did you open with those words?
Kinda has the stink of Republican doublespeak. I think you owe Obama, and your readers, an apology.
I can't wait to read articles about effete germans who eat organic arugula.
....to too many voters who are put off rather than attracted by his race....
There is a single word that describes someone who is put off by someone else's race. Those people are not voting for him anyway.
"...having your candidate appear in front of tens of thousands of adoring European fans strikes me as the height of political folly."
And there you have it. The state of political commentary in America, 2008.
"voters aren't really paying attention to anything election-related right about now"
For McCain's sake, you better hope so. I can't think of a worse two weeks for a presidential candidate. As for Berlin speech, somehow I think that the Obama campaign will be just fine. How many times will they outsmart the right before you guys stop lowering the bar? But by all means, keep up the predictions of gloom and doom.
Also, the Obama camp has been so strategically adept that I have to assume they've thought through how the message of the speech will relate to the setting and how they plan to frame the whole thing afterward -- both for Thursday's news cycle and the rest of the campaign.
An unusually heavy barrage Ross has been taking today, if I do say so myself.
Which is a good thing. Can't they switch him with Reihan?
Move beyond the image of the rally, Douthat. This is going to be a speech first and foremost. Consider: If he gives a speech about NATO, about it's responsiblities in Afghanistan, about the alliance between Europe and America in the context of the war on terror, on making that alliance into an international call to brotherhood...wow.
The substance of his remarks combined with the hushed crowds would be an incredibly powerful sight and feed into the idea that he can make America a beacon of light.
This has the opportunity to be a huge momment for not only him but his campaign.
It seems to me everyone is solely looking at the throngs he'll have coming to listen, the one million plus and ignoring: the dude's going to give a SPEECH. A speech they've been planning. A big ideas speech. This is a MOMMENT. And it's a momment to define how he views the world and America's place in the world and European-Atlantic relations.
This is Obama's wheelhouse.
Consider this: before he had the VP pick and the convention to give himself a huge momment. Now, he's got another opportunity to stop and SAY something and have that be the chatter going forward and into the weekend.
This trip has payed HUGE dividends in recasting the foreign policy debate and this speech is an opportunity to cement those gains.
This is the biggest part of the trip and the BEST opportunity to do something BIG and make himself look presidential in turn.
Ross @$$hat steps up to the plate once again, and--WHIFFS!
Still smarting from getting your butt kicked by commenters over at TPM shilling for your lastest waste of forestry?
At least you showed more guts than your coward co-author.
Daniel Shays asks:
-- Can't they switch him with Reihan?
The way things are going at The Atlantic, Reihan will get Matthew Yglesias's spot.
I guess Repiglicans can only be happy if he have a president who is despised everywhere else in the world.
When JFK was cheered in Germany it seemed like something for America to be proud of. Of course Repiglicans liked it when Saint Reagan went there to mourn SS deaths.
This will work out just fine for Obama among sane Americans. I don't think he'll be paying tribute to the SS.
Pretty big of Ross to say that comparing Obama to Hitler is absurd. Even bigger to introduce the post the way he did as a "yeah but" device. David Brooks Lite.
I used to have respect for the Atlantic. This stupid article, however, has made me change my mind.
"Most of us would love to see another JFK."
Why?
Well, "Continuum," you have to ask yourself why we should care.
As was noted this morning, Nothing says "character reference" like a teeming crowd of thousands of adoring Germans chanting your name." - Jim Geraghty
Re: Hector, don't you think Germany has changed just a bit since 1945? For one thing, it's generally home to more antiwar sentiment than the U.S.
Yes, and that was exactly what most of the world wanted back in 1945: Germany to become a nation of pacifists. We can hardly complain now when our policy of purging German culture of militarism has succeeded quite well.
Miri: Maybe, I don't know, because some of us actually value the rest of the world's opinion and would like to see the U.S. return to an era of moral leadership such as that enjoyed under JFK. That's why.
Are you Americans as stupid as Ross implies? Really?
The presidential contest is between two parties. One of these parties took the United States into war against the opposition of France and Germany, and the war proved to be a disaster. The candidate of this party was and remains one the war's most fervent defenders.
The candidate of the other party opposed the war from the outset.
Unsurprisingly, then, our traditional European allies strongly favor and support the candidate of the other party.
When that candidate speaks in European venues, he will evoke displays of support that will remind Americans of how disastrously one party and its leaders, past and present performed, and how superior was the judgment exhibited by the leader of the other party.
It's not hard to understand why any supporter of the party of disaster would not relish, or even comprehend, the reminder.
"the height of political folly", but it "probably won't hurt" him? Seems a little inconsistent.
I understand what Ross is saying. I mean, it will certainly make the "ethnic" Obama seem less American to see tens of thousands of white Europeans worshiping him at a public speech. Yeah. Right.
We told you from the beginning that this candidacy was going to be audacious.
Douthat - The Berlin rally probably won't hurt Obama - voters aren't really paying attention to anything election-related right about now, and it'll be forgotten by the time the fall campaign begins
America very well remembers the mass rallies of millions of Europeans against America, over the years, depending on how old you are.
The '68 May Day and the early 70s million-man rallies and riots against American capitalism, Nixon, LBJ - followed by rallies numbering 700,000 or so denouncing Carter for failing to do famine relief and his "murderous coming attack against Iran over a few hostages. And almost every year against Reagan for his "moronic caveman irrational hatred against Communism, his "nuclear insanity".
Then the millions of "No Blood for Oil!" Euros that spilled out and attacked US interests and a few embassies denouncing our 1991 "aggressive and Imperialist war" to get Saddam out of Kuwait and "steal all the oil". Then the huge rallies protesting Clinton and globalism, evil American genetically modified food, McDonalds. And of course the multimillion rallies against Bush II.
Contrast all that ugly history with the worship Euroweenies feel for all-wise Black men like Julius Nyere, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Mugabe - the wise man of new proseperous Zimbabwe 15 years ago, Kofi Annan (the world's conscience) that get million-person adulation rallies. Or the non-black 3rd World tyrants on visits that are groveled to like the royalty they sometimes are - the Saudi Rulers, Fidel, King Abdullah of Jordan, Emirs from a half dozen Gulf despot states. Hugo Chavez.
If Obama draws Hitler-like crowds in Germany and Degaulle-sized crowds in France and Diana or Freddie Mercury-sized crowds in the UK you can be sure the American public will notice Obama is getting a quite different reception than some of our best Presidents, any American has gotten in the last 50 years.
And count on Republicans to show ads highlighting the contrast between the hostile mobs of Euros howling after Clinton, Albright, Reagan and the same masses adulating Obama like he was anti-Ameican Indira Gandhi on a State visit.
==========================
As was noted this morning, Nothing says "character reference" like a teeming crowd of thousands of adoring Germans chanting your name." - Jim Geraghty
Posted by vanderleun
Shame Leni Riefenstahl died a few years back in 2003. She would have loved to film the Obama Berlin rally. She might have even given Team Axlerod and Obama's stylists, lighting crew, wardrobe staff, and his 20 TelePrompter writers some good pointers.
Ross, this post ranks among your most myopic commentary (though most of your posts are great). I feel like the commenter above is right, you're just not getting it. Obama is redefining campaigning; by going overseas and ending in Europe with a big speech in Berlin -- which has been at the very center of the U.S.'s actions in the world during the 20th century -- he's reaping far more press and getting far more recognition (and looking far more presidential) than he would be staying home. And if his speech is a good one, he'll have washed away at least some doubts about his abilities to be leader of the free world. Your comments would sound better coming out of K-Lo's mouth.
Bob writes: "Your comments would sound better coming out of K-Lo's mouth."
Now THAT is funny.
I understand Ms. Lopez is available. Maybe she and Ross can breed and create the ultimate clueless party hack.
Poor little Reagan Douthat-Lopez would never have a chance.
That's right, Bob! Obama is redefining campaigning! I think Ross gets it, and I think most pundits who follow politicians get it.
Moe, stop sucking up to foreigners. Not sure what bastion of modernity Vladimir comes from, but I'm willing to bet Vlad's from a country where 70% of the people chain-smoke.
Leave McCain alone Moe, he's still grieving Estelle Getty. I think she interned for him at one point.
I used to think that it was a bad idea for Marc Ambinder to disable comments on his Atlantic blog. But then I read Ross's comment thread and saw the insults, caricatures, and name-calling and pondered the amazing contribution those particular comments make to political discourse. "Repiglicans," LarryMoeJesus? Thanks for that little gem...and for stopping by every comment thread on Ross' blog to present your binary view of the political world.
Man, how did we survive as a civilization before comment threads?
WWhnt says: "Leave McCain alone Moe, he's still grieving Estelle Getty. I think she interned for him at one point."
She sort of looked like him. Are you sure she wasn't his daughter from his first marriage with Clara Bow?
Hi Ferrel,
Well, I cannot say if my country would be a "bastion of modernity" for you. You know, most people here believe in evolution and global warming. Also, people here are against using torture, even if the government gives it another name. And if one of our candidate's to he higher office goes to an ally country and receive such greetings as Obama is getting, we would think about that as a good thing.
Yeah, I bet we are a little retrograde here...
Ross has upped his output significantly since the bad old days of a post-per-three days; he still must think we're stupid, though.
Reading the moonbattish comments here leaves no doubt as to the stupidity of the typical reader of this site. It's that special blend of overweening arrogance and childish ignorance that distinguishes the true lefty.
An unusually heavy barrage Ross has been taking today, if I do say so myself.
Yup, the digital brownshirts are out in force.
Freddiemac,
Perhaps there are some who won't vote for Obama because he's black, but I bet there are a larger number of people who won't vote for McCain because he's white, or rather they will vote for Obama only because he's black. It cuts both ways...
the images that come from hundreds of thousands of adoring Europeans listening to Obama talk about the U.S. role in the world will be extremely powerful.
For the neo-fascists in the Democratic Party, sure. But normal Americans find this worship of a corrupt Chicago machine-poll to be bizarre.
You know, most people here believe in evolution and global warming.
Lot's of morons in your country then. No wonder it's poorer than America.
Sigh, so much for keeping the argument clean and on topic. Its threads like this that make me stop wondering why our political system seems so jacked up. The thread starts with some clean and more or less simple commentary which you may or may not agree with. Then someone full of electronic courage has to shoot his/her mouth off with some stupid comment against the other side (be it evil Bush or stupid democrats) and then the hordes of electronic loudmouths swarm with their not original, not funny and not helping honest debate commentary. Not every Republican believes in creationism, not every democrat was against the war, Bush is not Satan in the flesh and Obama is not the Second Coming.
People, if you wouldn't say something to someone's face do us all a favor and don't say it here. You are not impressing anyone with your wit or courage as it takes ZERO courage to post a comment and the wit part is sorely lacking on both sides.
Yeah, we do we really want a President who isn't feared and despised around the world? Only left wing elitists would want us to viewed by our allies as something other than an evil empire. Maybye the Obama campaign should pay some anarchists to start a riot to prove back home that Obama is a real American and will do everything he can to keep us below Syria and North Korea in terms of global popularity.
Does Ross really think Americans are going to decide Obama having adoring Germans cheer him on is going to change their mind about the economy?
Actually, I don't think the comparison is absurd. They share the fact that they are primarily interested in obtaining and maintaining power and both clearly understand symbols and their use. Obama and Hitler carry no real central core of beliefs other than what he wants at that moment.
Obama gains nothing from today's rally in Berlin. If Europeans in the streets like him that doesn't help him much. But on the other hand this could be his Mission Accomplished moment. He is not even president yet.
Obama is absolutely LOVED by the European crowds!
They love his airy speeches and aristocratic snobbery.
They love how he agrees with them that THEY should run the US, not us.
They love how he wants the US to become their doormat.
They love his Hopey Changiness!
They love him so much, I think they should keep him!
User talk:MoeLarryAndJesus
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[edit] re your email
Sorry ML&J, but I can see at least four other admins who have looked this over or handled a request from you to be unblocked under this name, and I can't just unblock you. The block wasn't for your username (personally, I think it's fine), it was for your deliberate and knowing trolling.
However, I can reduce your indefinite block, which I have done so; it will expire in 48 hours, at which point you can request a change of name. Please let me know via email if you have any trouble in the meantime, but don't ask me to reduce it further. No more trolling, though, please?
I also would ask that the first thing you do in two day's time is to request the name change, and to refrain from making any other edits to anywhere other than this talk page, til the name change is done. Is that reasonable?
The contempt shown to our allies by the likes of Random Numbers is a perfect illustration of where the right is on foreign policy. We are in the midst of a global war on terror, and nothing is more important than that. And yet they consider it a sign of weakness to court the support of our most valuable allies, who we all know must be mocked and disrespected incessantly.
This seems like an excellent strategy for achieving our global objectives.
Obama and Hitler carry no real central core of beliefs other than what he wants at that moment.
For one thing, I'm confident that Obama would have consistently opposed the Invasion of Poland--even before it actually happened.
The whole reason for this stop is that The One wants to make himself appear Kennedyesque.
Don't be surprised if He tells His prospective future One World subjects that He is also a jelly donut.
Ross, this is just stupid. Although I haven't read your book, from what I've heard it has a somewhat interesting thesis. While not on my short list I was actually considering giving it a look.
Unfortunately I'll have to cancel. Comments/posts like this are just aren't that thought out and send a clear signal that you really are a typical knuckle dragging conservative. If your comment wasn't intentionally cynical and insincere than it must have been made out of sheer ignorance. My guess is that you threw a "stupid bomb" to draw attention and stay relevant. You really would be more at home over at Town Hall, and I guess it's a courtesy of sorts that your posts at the Atlantic are few and far between.
Anyway, I think there are a few Conservative authors out there with interesting, thought compelling things to add to the debate and who do make some great observations (the Economist's John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge come to mind, as does PJ O'Rourke) but you've just proven to me that you're just another intellectually lazy turd. Posts like this one where you go out of your way to defy common sense and popular consensus just do more damage for conservatism when it needs it least.
FWIW, it is rather nice getting a chance to read the comments that these posts of yours pick up. So I'll definitely keep coming back!
For someone who writes that one should "[f]igure it out and think before speaking on subjects that you have no grasp of," Johnny Falcon's German shows a surprising number of errors. He writes, "Wie Viel sprache konnst du sprechen? Ich denke nur eine und das nicht gut!" He should have written, "wie viele Sprachen kannst du? Ich denke nur eine, und das ist nicht gut!"
I'd really like to know which genius on the Obama campaign thought it would be a good idea to have their candidate conduct a major campaign rally in Europe with three months to go till the election
They must have forgotten that Europe is The Enemy. Thanks for settin' 'em straight, Ross!
Getting scared, are we, Ross? The best thing about this trip is that the media had to look at John McCain on his own for a while. They found a confused, dishonest and incompetent old man - and even partly reported the fact! This trip was a great move by Obama, and the Bushies (sorry, McCainistas) are now furious with themselves for pushing for it for so long.
I'd really like to know which genius on the Obama campaign thought it would be a good idea to have their candidate conduct a major campaign rally in Europe with three months to go till the election
Perhaps they should have scheduled a photo-op on a gulf oil rig to show how awesome drilling for oil around New Orleans is. Yeah, that's the ticket.
This moment is fraught with peril for Democrats!
They risk coming across as elitist and weak on national security!
They better just do whatever Republicans say!
Obama may have a slight lead in the nationwide polls, but when it's broken down state-by-state, he has a much greater advantage. Check http://www.electoral-vote.com/ and see what I mean.
Obama may have a slight lead in the nationwide polls, but when it's broken down state-by-state, he has a much greater advantage. Check http://www.electoral-vote.com/ and see what I mean.
ross,
why do you have an irrational hatred of europe and europeans?
you really think people are going to say, "gee, the world loves obama, so lets vote for the guy the world hates?"
I was going to vote for the old geezer. But, after seeing how much Europe loves him, I just gotta vote for Obama because I want the Germans, French, and Arabs to be happy.
I am quite sure there are people surrounding Obama who actually believe that there are people who will side with Obama because of his popularity in Europe.
Johnny Falcon: if you paid for any German lessons, try to get your money back, you were obviously swindled.
There is a single word that describes someone who is put off by someone else's race.
Sharpton?
Anyhow, I predict that come Nov. 4, Obama will handily win Germany.
Shorter version of comments posted above by approval-seekers, co-dependents and hand-wringers:
1. It's more important to be well-liked than to do the right thing -- and being well-liked means we're doing the right thing.
2. Media-fueled bigotry abroad is proof of our waywardness -- provincial ignorance only exist in American flyover country.
3. Morality is best determined by consensus, not by principle -- and a tablespoon of dog poop mixed into a quart of ice cream will still taste like ice cream.
Ross is just sticking up for his friend Stevie, who whines "Why don't *I* get to give a speech in Germany? I could do a really good one."
Ed-
Not sure if you're trying to offer a rebuttal, make a point, change the subject or some combination of all three. Maybe try it without non-sequiturs, red herrings and straw men . . .
Those who are put off by his race and "exotic" background aren't going to vote for him no matter what he does, they have a bigoted and personal dislike for the guy. His trip, in my view, isn't for voters but for the media who have been hounding him as untested and wanting to see what he's like on the World stage. This trip is to basically shut them up. Post-trip I think Obama will be all domestic/economic issues, at least through the end of summer.
Johnny Falcon : The real fact is that in Germany, people run their lives with more order ...
This is true, though twice during the Twentieth Century those dastardly, "disorderly" Americans, restored order to a a Europe shattered by Germany. You might visit the several American cemeteries in Europe where many thousands of "disordered" American soldiers lie in their graves.
As to Obama, it is fitting that he has picked Germany, a country of rabid anti-Americanism, based largely on envy and resentment, particularly this frothy speech at the Victory Monument that signifies Germany's defeat of several European nations. Germany, having lost its bid for serious status as a world power, gets off on Americans, like Obama who promise to be a good Boy Scout in this wonderful multi-cultural world.
You think Obama gets a lot of support from American white liberals because he's black, nonthreatening, and assuages their guilt?
They got nothin' on Germans. No wonder the throngs are adoring.
"The height of political folly'--"certainly won't help him"--well, one thing's sure, Ross Douthat isn't to be confused with Mike Deaver. A hundred thousand Germans, a sea of American flags, a future president of America recalling his roots in Kenya, an eloquent statement of the walls we of the world are up against today and how America means to help tear them down--yeah, yeah, this was folly and disaster.
Ross makes a valid point. Americans don't like to see their potential leader's kowtowing to a foreign power. The trick is if obama can (which he probably will) pull off the visit without seeming to pander to outside influences, and still make valid points about the future of America in the international community.
As for the lack of civic discourse on an online forum. Well it's like the Klan burning crosses on people's yards. Anonimity gives a certain class of people the courage to do things that they otherwise would not have.
Yeah, ed. You've really got me all figured out. Love the name-calling. Bigot much?
'Dig', indeed.
So it looks like, much to the chagrin of people like Ross who only want to give some friendly advice to the Democratic candidate, Barack Obama had the audacity to give a good speech in Berlin and be received well by the crowd.
I am never surprised when Ross and his ilk refer to that mythical American who will wonder why Obama is talking in Berlin. Americans, even those bitter ones, don't live in caves. They know what is happening around them, they look at what they see needs to be done for them and they will vote accordingly. Obama's Berlin debut will be forgotten in a wee
Because it gives Obama an opportunity to point out Europes responsibilities and denounce European anti-Americanism.
Posted by Craig | July 23, 2008 3:46 PM