Not knowing the man, I didn't have much to offer over the weekend, but for anyone who hasn't seen it, I would recommend Elizabeth Edwards' Newsweek piece on his passing.
« Bishirjian Continued | Main | Comments » Tony Snow, RIP16 Jul 2008 12:25 pm Comments (29)
James writes: "He was Bush's Press Secretary for over a year, and during the Libby fiasco also." He was hired to put a familiar, professional smile on the face of torture. What a ghastly legacy. 
This was a story about a man who died of a disease that we hope to find a cure for in the future. A story about a man who died by a woman in peril of dying herself. They differed in political philosphy but the larger picture they had much in common. It is a human story. Please James, try to be human.
This was a story about a man who died of a disease that we hope to find a cure for in the future. A story about a man who died by a woman in peril of dying herself. They differed in political philosphy but the larger picture they had much in common. It is a human story. Please James, try to be human.
Snow was a member of and an apologist for an administration that can rightfully be accused of crimes against humanity, corruption, and lying the US into war. He WAS a ghastly human being, and his legacy is an important part of his human story. Getting all warm and fuzzy after his death is just hypocracy.
Ann, I didn't say he was a bad man, what I was saying is that he does not gain or diminish in moral standing due to his illness. I merely stated what he did while he was well - and what he did is why we know of him and why Ross posted. What did they have in common except having cancer and not wanting to die? It's not 'not being human', it's just not being mawkish for no reason. Again, I have had relatives die from cancer, and I loved them deeply, my relatives did good things and bad things, and were flawed characters, like everyone else, and I loved them as these flawed individuals. That is being human, not this inane soft focus halo merely from having cancer, which changes the person into a Hallmark card.
MoeLarryandJesus,
The r-squared when years married and fertility are combined in a multiple regression model is improves to 88 percent. (Small-sounding change, perhaps, but actually an important (30%) reduction in the unaccounted variation - from 17 percent to 12 percent.) In other words, both years married and fertility play statistically significant roles, with years married somewhat more important. Not surprisingly, years married and number of babies per woman is highly correlated (r = 0.80, r-squared = 65 percent). On both measures, Utah is first and D.C. last." As for I.Q., it's strength comes from it's predictability. If, after controlling for culture and era, we could estimate one's propensity for crime, out of wedlock births, income, being on welfare or not, etc. by measuring one's foot size, we'd go with it. But we have the I.Q. test and it does pretty well. Other genes play a role, too, such as aggressiveness, etc.
I don't believe that Elizabeth Edwards' piece was putting a halo on Tony Snow. She was commenting on his human-ness which we all share. Are you saying that there is no point on commenting on his passing just because he was on television? or it is not correct to comment on his life in positive ways? What is the "inane soft focus halo" that you talk about? Just b/c it is commented that he had a family that he loved? I have lost many relatives to cancer, including my parents and brother and I am realistic about their lives - remembering them is human and not mawkish.
Talk about a thread derail.
I don't believe that Elizabeth Edwards' piece was putting a halo on Tony Snow. She was commenting on his human-ness which we all share. Are you saying that there is no point on commenting on his passing just because he was on television? or it is not correct to comment on his life in positive ways? What is the "inane soft focus halo" that you talk about? Just b/c it is commented that he had a family that he loved? I have lost many relatives to cancer, including my parents and brother and I am realistic about their lives - remembering them is human and not mawkish. Calling people "ghastly human beings" in this forum strikes me as being way over the top. I didn't agree with Tony Snow's politics nor did I ever vote for his boss, but spouting injectives after his death does not seem remotely appropriate.
Ann, before this thread gets completely derailed, do you know how well she actually knew Tony, beyond the mutual press releases re their respective cancers? It's a genuine question.
Sorry about the derail, but it was such a fundamental point and had no other avenue to make it. I made a huge error in my last post, the variable was for non-black people, obviously if one can predict with 92% that a black person voted for Kerry in '04, that trumps 88%. My baby started crying earlier and I had to end my comment. Another thing that has to be clarified is why the mention of whites and not others in the married w/ children equation. Their numbers were plugged in and no correlation was found. In other words, if one came across a random white person in 2004 and was told the following: I am 40 years old, have 4 children and have been married 15 years, one could bet with a very high degree of accuracy that said person voted for George W. Bush. If one came across a black person with the same profile, he probably voted for Kerry as did the black person who was never married and had no kids. The latter person, if white, would be quite different in political orientation than our hypothetical first white person.
"Calling people 'ghastly human beings' in this forum strikes me as being way over the top." You must be new here. That was downright polite by the standards of this forum. I try not to say nasty things about the recently deceased out of respect for the friends and family. There are exceptions... Jesse Helms was a ghastly human being by any measure... but Tony Snow was just a garden-variety right-wing media hack. He had lousy political views but seemed to be a decent person otherwise. I'm sure he was kind to children and rarely stole from the church collection plate. Nobody (well, almost nobody) deserves to die that young. I don't see any need to sugarcoat his life's work like Edwards did, but it's easy to understand why she would be unusually sympathetic.
Emma, If you are going to prove that Sailer is correct, an objective source might be best, not text from Sailer himself.
Rather than the left-wing media hacks you prefer, sparky? Good Lord. Can't even let a decent man pass without spewing your venom. It comes down to you disagreeing with the man's views, and considering him a bad person because he dares disagree. Period. This is why it take a presidency like Bush's to make a liberal electable. Ross can do as he wishes w/ the comments. Few of you clowns are worth reading.
Fools.
Ferrell, You seem perky today, arbitrary censorship must excite you.
Rather than the left-wing media hacks you prefer, sparky? Good Lord. Can't even let a decent man pass without spewing your venom. It comes down to you disagreeing with the man's views, and considering him a bad person because he dares disagree. Period. This is why it take a presidency like Bush's to make a liberal electable.
I have been thinking about the difference between liberal and conservative lately, and I think it comes down to perception. Both groups share the same general goals: health, education, jobs, and security, however it is true that the groups don't share goals on every issue, such as abortion. If we share the same ultimate goals on most things then how can there be so much hatred between the two groups? My position is, and this thread illustrates that liberals don't believe we have the same goals. Liberals believe that the goals of conservatives are evil by nature. Global warming is a good example, most liberals firmly believe that conservatives want climate change, and the overall destruction of the environment, and since we live in that environment our own ultimate destruction. Conservatives on the other hand tend to agree that on most issues we share the same goal, but we believe the methods liberals pursue to obtain their goals are socialist, evil, and erode liberties. This is why you see such venom from liberals, because they believe that in their intent conservatives are truly evil.
Ferrell you truly are an oasis of common sense in this desert of hyperbolic left-wing hackery. thanks.
If only obsequious was included on the Terms and conditions.
Ferrell writes: "Good Lord. Can't even let a decent man pass without spewing your venom. It comes down to you disagreeing with the man's views, and considering him a bad person because he dares disagree. Period. This is why it take a presidency like Bush's to make a liberal electable." DickFCheneytomm adds: "This is why you see such venom from liberals, because they believe that in their intent conservatives are truly evil." Yes, I'm sure we'll see the core decency of conservatives when Ted Kennedy dies. I've already seen the basic decency of conservatives illustrated perfectly. It was a t-shirt with a picture of Martin Luther King in the crosshairs of a rifle scope, with the caption "Our Dream Came True." Decades later conservatives still revile the man as a Communist and insist he doesn't deserve a holiday. I am well acquainted with the decency of conservatives. Oh, and did I mention that most modern American conservatives are cheerleaders for torture? It's no slander. It's a fact. Being lectured on decency by such people is like being given an abstinence lecture by Rudy Giuliani or John McCain.
Ahab says: "Ferrell you truly are an oasis of common sense in this desert of hyperbolic left-wing hackery." When you find the Great White Whale, Ahab, aim for the blowhole. I'm sure you know where it is.
Emma Sailerite writes: "In other words, if one came across a random white person in 2004 and was told the following: I am 40 years old, have 4 children and have been married 15 years, one could bet with a very high degree of accuracy that said person voted for George W. Bush. If one came across a black person with the same profile, he probably voted for Kerry as did the black person who was never married and had no kids. The latter person, if white, would be quite different in political orientation than our hypothetical first white person." Fascinating... Okay, the only thing that's fascinating is why you care about this crap.
Moe, Since you seem to be able to talk like an adult today, I will be civil to you. You can't make a blanket statement that all conservatives are evil because you saw one guy wearing one t-shirt. We can both go out on the net and produce examples of liberals and conservatives being vile, the thread will go on forever and produce nothing. We'll I wouldn't have to produce an example, since I'm talking to one. It's nice to come on a board and carpet bomb everybody with a general term like torture, but that won't work anymore. You need to finally state your position. Do you agree we have the right to make every effort, short of torture, to extract information, and if you do then you need to define what exactly that means. Today we simply can't say "we don't torture", because we have to protect our military personnel that are conducting the questioning. You realize that in this past Israel/Lebanon war that lawyers played a large role, and were consulted before any major move Israel made, and in this atmosphere we have to clearly define what is and isn't torture to protect our personnel from being brought before a international court to face war crimes charges. I personally don't care what is and isn't included in the approved tactic list, but our soldiers need to know that as long as they obey the rules the full power of the U.S. government will be behind them. With that in mind, what do you considerer acceptable? I will go first and list some of the tactics that I find acceptable: sleep deprivation, exposure to cold, exposure to sound, and humiliation(not physical abuse) you get the idea. The ball is back in your court now you clearly define what you find acceptable, and see how many people call you a torture supporter.
Moe, I also but the "b" back in my screen name just so you could throw in a Bush reference, since pettiness like that is your stock and trade, but if your going to be such a brat, then at least make it funny.
DickFCheneytommBush replies: "You can't make a blanket statement that all conservatives are evil because you saw one guy wearing one t-shirt." Of course they're not all evil. Some of them are simply stupid. "We'll I wouldn't have to produce an example, since I'm talking to one." Exhibit One. Self-explanatory to literate folks. "Do you agree we have the right to make every effort, short of torture, to extract information, and if you do then you need to define what exactly that means." Exhibit Two. I have no idea what you're saying here. You don't express yourself clearly. "Today we simply can't say "we don't torture", because we have to protect our military personnel that are conducting the questioning." Exhibit Three. In fact Dumbya Bush has said repeatedly that "we don't torture," but he's lying. "You realize that in this past Israel/Lebanon war that lawyers played a large role, and were consulted before any major move Israel made, and in this atmosphere we have to clearly define what is and isn't torture to protect our personnel from being brought before a international court to face war crimes charges." Exhibit Four. I hope that in the near future Dumbya Bush and Cheney will be brought before just such a court and that they will spend the rest of their worthless lives in prison. I wouldn't wis such a fate on underlings who were merely following criminal orders, as long as they cooperated in the proceedings. I don't expect any of this to happen but it would be justice. "I will go first and list some of the tactics that I find acceptable: sleep deprivation, exposure to cold, exposure to sound, and humiliation(not physical abuse) you get the idea. The ball is back in your court now you clearly define what you find acceptable, and see how many people call you a torture supporter." Exhibit Five. Solzhenitsyn wrote about the Soviet's use of sleep deprivation and exposure to cols, etc. When these techniques were used by Communists most Americans considered them to be gross violations of human rights. They were right. These things are not acceptable "when we're doing them," as the revolting Rudy Giuliani suggested. Your moral sense is as corrupt and disgusting as his is, and as Beria's was. "if your going to be such a brat" Exhibit Six. I don't expect you to understand this one.
Moe, You position is that nothing other than a polite "please" is acceptable as an interrogation technique? Thanks for finally expressing your position on what you consider to be torture, and now anybody who reads your post will realize your howls of torture are empty.
DFCtommB, I think the lack of communication between you is that Moe seems to have a position on torture which comes from basic human decency. Obviously free feel to mock that as some naïve liberal position, because you are then making his case far better than Moe's invective will.
James, if DickFCheney wants to share a moral sensibility with Torquemada, Stalin, Himmler and Pol Pot, that's just the new ideal for the GOP "base." Which is aptly named, because I can't think of anything more base. Six more months and the DFC/Douthat-approved war criminals will be out of office and the Great National Delousing can happen. I just hope it does.
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The logic seems to be that all people are dignified and redeemed by their shared suffering of cancer.
I've had several relatives suffer and die from cancer - it's a horrible disease, but it doesn't make them a better person or a worse person. It just ravages their body.
He was Bush's Press Secretary for over a year, and during the Libby fiasco also. Depending on your politics, you have an opinion as to that - quite why it changes because someone has an illness which ends up terminal is beyond me.
Posted by James | July 16, 2008 12:39 PM